MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[usee]

Speaking of recruiting, I worry that the coaching change at Wheaton will have a negative impact on their ability to attract their top names. First, with the growing probability of Coach Harris' retirement I wonder how aggressively they filled the pipeline and with their playoff run and Harris' subsequent retirement I question what their recruiting class will look like.

Anyone have any info?

[thundermike]

Speaking of recruiting, I worry that the coaching change at Wheaton will have a negative impact on their ability to attract their top names. First, with the growing probability of Coach Harris' retirement I wonder how aggressively they filled the pipeline and with their playoff run and Harris' subsequent retirement I question what their recruiting class will look like.

Anyone have any info?

I don't have any specific info, but if Coach Frank ends up being the new coach I doubt the change will affect recruiting that much since Frank and Coach Handy do a lot of the recruiting. Just a thought.

[dansand]

Nice piece in the local paper today about Augie's newest addition:

http://qconline.com/archives/qco/display.php?id=433825

Hopefully I'll have news soon on another.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Re: scoring down despite 3-point rule.

Pistol Pete Marovich leads in all-time scoring (d1, at least - couldn't readily find all-division records) despite only playing 3 years; and (one of those unlikely to ever be broken records) leads in scoring average by almost 10 points per game.  The mind boggles at the thought of Pete playing with a 3-point line!  Instead of 44.2 ppg, would it be 50?  55?

[izzy stradlin]

Speaking of recruiting, I worry that the coaching change at Wheaton will have a negative impact on their ability to attract their top names. First, with the growing probability of Coach Harris' retirement I wonder how aggressively they filled the pipeline and with their playoff run and Harris' subsequent retirement I question what their recruiting class will look like.

Anyone have any info?

I am fairly certain that Harris checked-out on the recruiting side of things early this year knowing that he was retiring.  Coaches Frank, Handy and Panner have been doing the majority of the recruiting.

Wheaton does need to make a decision here shortly if they want to be successful with this year's class.  This is prime time for D3 athletes to make their college decisions and I assumed  that Wheaton would have a coach in place by now. 

[Above The Rim]

Speaking of recruiting, I worry that the coaching change at Wheaton will have a negative impact on their ability to attract their top names. First, with the growing probability of Coach Harris' retirement I wonder how aggressively they filled the pipeline and with their playoff run and Harris' subsequent retirement I question what their recruiting class will look like.

Anyone have any info?

I don't have any specific info, but if Coach Frank ends up being the new coach I doubt the change will affect recruiting that much since Frank and Coach Handy do a lot of the recruiting. Just a thought.

Despite his position as captain of the Wheaton basketball ship, I doubt Coach Harris' retirement will have more than a negligible effect on Wheaton recruiting, especially if one of the current assistants gets the head job or they both stay with the program if someone else is brought in. There are at least 3 reasons for this.
1. The name Wheaton College is bigger than any individual, player or coach included. Wheaton basketball will still be successful after Harris and Raymond are gone.
2. At most schools, the assistants do as much, if not more, recruiting than the head coach. Most recruiting coordinators are assistant coaches.   
3. Despite the fact that some Wheaton backers might disagree, Wheaton has somewhat of a built in recruiting edge due to its religious philosophy. Wheaton really rarely competes with the other CCIW schools for local players. If the recruit subscribes to Wheaton's religious tenants, he is going to Wheaton. If he doesn't, Wheaton isn't likely to be recruiting him in the first place. And, the other CCIW schools are not recruiting all those players on the current and former Wheaton rosters from New Hampshire, Texas, Nebraska, etc. I would venture to say most of them sought Wheaton out. Thats what I mean by a "built in" advantage.

I don't think naming a new head coach is as urgent a need as some have suggested.

[izzy stradlin]

Speaking of recruiting, I worry that the coaching change at Wheaton will have a negative impact on their ability to attract their top names. First, with the growing probability of Coach Harris' retirement I wonder how aggressively they filled the pipeline and with their playoff run and Harris' subsequent retirement I question what their recruiting class will look like.

Anyone have any info?

I don't have any specific info, but if Coach Frank ends up being the new coach I doubt the change will affect recruiting that much since Frank and Coach Handy do a lot of the recruiting. Just a thought.

Despite his position as captain of the Wheaton basketball ship, I doubt Coach Harris' retirement will have more than a negligible effect on Wheaton recruiting, especially if one of the current assistants gets the head job or they both stay with the program if someone else is brought in. There are at least 3 reasons for this.
1. The name Wheaton College is bigger than any individual, player or coach included. Wheaton basketball will still be successful after Harris and Raymond are gone.
2. At most schools, the assistants do as much, if not more, recruiting than the head coach. Most recruiting coordinators are assistant coaches.   
3. Despite the fact that some Wheaton backers might disagree, Wheaton has somewhat of a built in recruiting edge due to its religious philosophy. Wheaton really rarely competes with the other CCIW schools for local players. If the recruit subscribes to Wheaton's religious tenants, he is going to Wheaton. If he doesn't, Wheaton isn't likely to be recruiting him in the first place. And, the other CCIW schools are not recruiting all those players on the current and former Wheaton rosters from New Hampshire, Texas, Nebraska, etc. I would venture to say most of them sought Wheaton out. Thats what I mean by a "built in" advantage.

I don't think naming a new head coach is as urgent a need as some have suggested.

I think you underestimate the impact coaches have at Wheaton.  While Wheaton is a nice name and has a lot to sell, what good has it ever done for the baseball team or the basketball program in the years immediately prior to Harris or Football leading up to Bishop/Swider. 

It's true that there are some recruits who seek out Wheaton.  On the other hand if you talk to coach Swider, he will tell you that when he goes on his recruiting trips to Texas, most of the players have never even heard of Wheaton.  Wheaton has a lot to offer, but you have to find the players and sell the school/program. 

I disagree that Wheaton rarely goes up against the CCIW for local recruits.  That's true for out-of-state players but the good in-state kids often end up on the radar of other CCIW schools.  Jeremy Pflederer was recruited pretty hard by other confernce schools.  Wheaton's top target this year is being heavily recruited by Giovanine, Scherer and Raridon.  I could list others.  Sure, some kids are dead set on going to a Christian school, but there are many who could fit in and be happy at Wheaton or another CCIW school.   

I agree that long term Wheaton will be successful, but that is in large part because I trust that the administration will make a good hire.  The process and timing of a coaching change, however, can easily have an impact on what kind of class Wheaton has this year.

[Gregory Sager]

Speaking of recruiting, I worry that the coaching change at Wheaton will have a negative impact on their ability to attract their top names. First, with the growing probability of Coach Harris' retirement I wonder how aggressively they filled the pipeline and with their playoff run and Harris' subsequent retirement I question what their recruiting class will look like.

Anyone have any info?

I don't have any specific info, but if Coach Frank ends up being the new coach I doubt the change will affect recruiting that much since Frank and Coach Handy do a lot of the recruiting. Just a thought.

Despite his position as captain of the Wheaton basketball ship, I doubt Coach Harris' retirement will have more than a negligible effect on Wheaton recruiting, especially if one of the current assistants gets the head job or they both stay with the program if someone else is brought in. There are at least 3 reasons for this.
1. The name Wheaton College is bigger than any individual, player or coach included. Wheaton basketball will still be successful after Harris and Raymond are gone.
2. At most schools, the assistants do as much, if not more, recruiting than the head coach. Most recruiting coordinators are assistant coaches.   
3. Despite the fact that some Wheaton backers might disagree, Wheaton has somewhat of a built in recruiting edge due to its religious philosophy. Wheaton really rarely competes with the other CCIW schools for local players. If the recruit subscribes to Wheaton's religious tenants, he is going to Wheaton. If he doesn't, Wheaton isn't likely to be recruiting him in the first place. And, the other CCIW schools are not recruiting all those players on the current and former Wheaton rosters from New Hampshire, Texas, Nebraska, etc. I would venture to say most of them sought Wheaton out. Thats what I mean by a "built in" advantage.

I don't think naming a new head coach is as urgent a need as some have suggested.

I think you underestimate the impact coaches have at Wheaton.  While Wheaton is a nice name and has a lot to sell, what good has it ever done for the baseball team or the basketball program in the years immediately prior to Harris or Football leading up to Bishop/Swider.

Well said, Izzy. Above The Rim has apparently never looked at Wheaton's basketball history between the early 1970s and the arrival of Bill Harris in 1991-92. It isn't a pretty one; in the twenty years prior to the arrival of Harris, Wheaton had fifteen losing seasons in CCIW play, three winning seasons, and two .500 seasons. Wheaton has zero guarantee of success in basketball whatsoever that is predicated upon the fact that it has a larger institutional profile than its seven CCIW rivals.

It's true that there are some recruits who seek out Wheaton.  On the other hand if you talk to coach Swider, he will tell you that when he goes on his recruiting trips to Texas, most of the players have never even heard of Wheaton.  Wheaton has a lot to offer, but you have to find the players and sell the school/program.

Also true, Izzy. Hioh school students are rarely slam-dunk, I-won't-consider-any-other-school prospects for a college's admissions department, Wheaton included, and that's particularly true of talented student-athletes. The idea that Wheaton doesn't have to sell itself to prospects -- that if "the recruit subscribes to Wheaton's religious tenants [sic], he is going to Wheaton" -- is either naive or delusional. There are lots and lots of other schools out there, including lots of evangelical Christian schools, that are competing for students with Wheaton. Wheaton doesn't always win those battles. In fact, who knows if Wheaton even wins most of those battles?

Wheaton is a very fine school, but Above The Rim needs to be disabused of the notion that it is the preferred destination of every college-qualified evangelical kid in the nation. Nor is it the school that always wins out when it competes for a high school student with other evangelical colleges. Need proof? Yours truly is proof.

I disagree that Wheaton rarely goes up against the CCIW for local recruits.  That's true for out-of-state players but the good in-state kids often end up on the radar of other CCIW schools.  Jeremy Pflederer was recruited pretty hard by other confernce schools.  Wheaton's top target this year is being heavily recruited by Giovanine, Scherer and Raridon.  I could list others.  Sure, some kids are dead set on going to a Christian school, but there are many who could fit in and be happy at Wheaton or another CCIW school. 

Again, well put, Izzy. Wheaton often has to contend with CCIW schools, as well as other schools, for local prospects. Heck, I can even cite an example of Wheaton competing with a CCIW school for an out-of-state prospect; California native Jonathan Steven was also recruited by North Park. Wheaton's recruiting advantages (well-regarded academics, high national profile) are countered by disadvantages (faith requirements for enrollment, price tag). In that sense it's no different than any other school.

I agree that long term Wheaton will be successful, but that is in large part because I trust that the administration will make a good hire.  The process and timing of a coaching change, however, can easily have an impact on what kind of class Wheaton has this year.

As I said, Wheaton has no guarantee of success on the hardwood, either short-term or long-term. The ultra-competitiveness of this league in men's basketball won't allow it. But I agree that the school will probably make a good hire to replace Harris and thus stands a good chance of keeping the current success intact. (And I still think that it's gonna be Mike Schauer.) While it's true that assistants do much or most of the recruiting at most schools, it's the head coach who usually seals the deal with recruits in terms of personal impressions. And, yeah, the timing of the hire could thus adversely affect Wheaton's class of 2013 if it takes too long. Wheaton may be less prone to pursue the type of high school student-athlete who puts the biggest emphasis upon his opinion of the head coach who is recruiting him when he makes his final school choice, but it doesn't mean that Wheaton is immune to that sort of thing, either.

[usee]

Well said Greg on all counts. I watched a lot of bad Wheaton basketball in the 80's when games against NPU were laughing stocks in "Centennial Gym". The Carlson Crazies abused us early and often back then and with good reason. I don't know how many Wheaton Basketball players from the 80's would even start on a Wheaton team in the 2000+ era but it wouldn't be very many. Bill Harris put Wheaton basketball on the CCIW map for the first time since before most of us were around. To think they will succeed without someone of equal or better ability/stature is absurd.

The perception that Wheaton doesn't compete with CCIW schools on recruits likely stems from the fact that a large percentage of Wheaton athletes come from outside Illinois and they compete with other schools for those prospects. Wheaton competes with other CCIW schools regularly for Illinois/Midwest prospects. They tend to go up against the military academies and some ivy league schools in football and I suspect in Basketball as well.

[all blues]

[The game is played at a more controlled pace now, many schools' highest scoring teams came from the 60's and 70's.  Just since 1991 scoring has declined almost 10 percent or roughly 7 points per game per team.  FG attempts per game has been declining almost every year since 1973 except for a couple, but we're again almost 10% fewer attempts per game lower.

This coincides with something i have been observing for some time now-tell me if you think i'm wrong, now (and i'm sure you will   )  Offenses today-kids run 'em like the coach taught 'em, because they know if they don't they won't play.  BUT-THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND 'EM!  they don't know where the "stops" are-where to look for shots, who's going to be open, etc.  so they just move the ball around aimlessly until something happens...whether it's because the coach can't communicate effectively, or because it's the only O he knows because HIS coach failed as an educator to thoroughly expose him to several offenses and the only one he knows doesn't suit his personnel, i haven't decided yet-maybe both.  but i get very frustrated watching games-i can see it in the kids' eyes they're terrified of violating the coach's instructions, and at the same time totally baffled as to how this is supposed to enable them to score points...
high school AND college

[Above The Rim]

Izzy, Gregory, & USee---

Thanks for the insight re Wheaton recruiting.
JMHO--and I could be wrong, but--

Izzy--I don't consider Pflederer a local recruit. Tremont is about 160 miles from Wheaton.
Gregory--I think Wheaton's main competition is other evangelical Christian schools more so than other CCIW schools. I don't think there are a lot of local kids that are at Wheaton that strongly considered other CCIW or midwestern non-evangelical schools. Some for sure, but not a lot.
USee--I was mainly considering the Wheaton teams of fairly recent vintage. I think now that Harris had them on the right track, the winning record is fairly likely to continue. The only thing that could derail the train would be a horrendous choice for head coach, and that probably won't happen.

Question---Most of the talk about the next WC head coach has centered on Schauer or one of the current ass't coaches. Does anyone think former assistant Paul Ferguson might be in the running?

Note--I've heard that there is one specific player who was being recruited by WC, AC, NCC, & EC (and possibly other midwest schools) who is not able to get into Wheaton for whatever reason.

[Gregory Sager]

Izzy--I don't consider Pflederer a local recruit. Tremont is about 160 miles from Wheaton.

Pflederer was very much a local recruit. Here's three reasons why:

1) He is in-state, and thus eligible for Illinois state aid;
2) He's within driving distance of home, which means that (unlike most Wheaton student-athletes) it's not a major production for his family to watch him play;
3) He was recruited by other CCIW schools; aside from NPU, which recruits both locally and nationally, all of the other schools restrict their recruiting efforts to about a 200-mile radius from campus (and most of them keep it in-state as well, although Augie considers eastern Iowa part of its recruiting base, and Carthage straddles the Lombardi-Halas Line in terms of its recruiting).

Gregory--I think Wheaton's main competition is other evangelical Christian schools more so than other CCIW schools. I don't think there are a lot of local kids that are at Wheaton that strongly considered other CCIW or midwestern non-evangelical schools. Some for sure, but not a lot.

I agree, but we're not talking about the main student body. If we're talking about Illinois-based athletic prospects who have an evangelical background and whose chances of landing a full ride somewhere are either limited or nonexistent, the chances are good that it'll be other CCIW schools (and perhaps Chicago, Wash U, and/or MWC schools) who will be pursuing that prospect along with Wheaton, instead of Taylor, Westmont, Gordon, etc., since Taylor, Judson, TIU, Greenville, etc., really aren't on the same level as those schools in terms of their basketball prowess. If it's out-of-state prospects, I tend to think that USee is right that military academies, Ivies, and perhaps the local equivalent of the CCIW and MWC (small, academically prestigious private schools) are the more aggressive competition in terms of Wheaton's out-of-state prospect pool.

I don't see other independent evangelical schools as being very high-powered in terms of national recruiting of student-athletes. Judging by their various sports rosters, Westmont seems to be a strictly west-of-the-Rockies school, Taylor focuses upon the midwest and Kentucky, and Gordon has a northeast-oriented recruiting base. And evangelical schools that are denominationally affiliated (e.g., North Park, Greenville, Judson, Trinity International, Messiah, both Bethels, various and sundry Nazarenes, etc.) tend to have denominationally-based constituencies from which they recruit students.

In other words, while Wheaton may go up against another evangelical school in pursuing a highly-sought-after student-athlete, it's not likely that it'll go up against more than one of them (or two at the most), no matter how many other schools are pursuing the kid.

USee--I was mainly considering the Wheaton teams of fairly recent vintage. I think now that Harris had them on the right track, the winning record is fairly likely to continue. The only thing that could derail the train would be a horrendous choice for head coach, and that probably won't happen.

Again, I think that this assumption is naive and completely unfounded. I have to again stress that the CCIW is a highly competitive men's basketball league in which no quarter is asked and no quarter given, every year, both on the court itself and in terms of recruiting. Just ask North Park, whose five-time-national-championship program fell apart when Bosko Djurickovic left (and has yet to recover), or Augustana, whose national-power program went south in a big way when legendary coach Jim Borcherding was replaced by a coach (Jim Leix) who couldn't cut the mustard on the CCIW level. In fact, you don't need to look any further than Illinois Wesleyan and the last few seasons; IWU's uncharacteristic struggles in the second division in recent seasons are in large part due to its previous coaching staff easing up on the throttle in terms of recruiting, but that recruiting downturn would not have been relevant if the league wasn't so darned competitive that no program can afford to rest upon its laurels for even one recruiting cycle. Plus, the influence of Bill Harris upon the Wheaton program will begin to decline the moment it becomes somebody else's baby, and it will continue to decline from there, so the idea that his level of achievement will be passed on to his successor by osmosis is not warranted.

You're dreaming if you think that Wheaton can just hire any old coach and still keep winning. It just doesn't work that way in the CCIW. There are eight sharks in this tank, and any one of the eight that releases blood into the water will be devoured.

Question---Most of the talk about the next WC head coach has centered on Schauer or one of the current ass't coaches. Does anyone think former assistant Paul Ferguson might be in the running?

I don't know if he's interested or not, but Ferg doesn't have collegiate head-coaching experience, which would be a serious drawback on his resume if he did pursue the job. My impression in speaking with him on various occasions since he took over the reins at Wheaton Academy is that he's very happy there. I've always said that the high school level is the place to be if you really feel that your gifts and interests lie in the teaching side of coaching (all other considerations aside), and I wouldn't be at all surprised if this describes Ferg. College coaching (and all of the road miles and headaches regarding recruiting) isn't the perfect destination for everybody.

But, if he is interested, I'm sure that as a former Wheaton assistant and Harris acolyte Ferg would get serious consideration.

[sac]

I've heard Wheaton's name come up in competition with Hope/Calvin for players numerous times.  More so in recent years, including a couple who didn't go to any of the 3 schools.

Spencer Schultze was the most recent, obvious since he's from Grand Rapids, Michigan.  McCrary was also a name that was given to me, although I have some doubt about that one.

Phil Carr comes from the Detroit area, I don't know if he was recruited by MIAA schools or not.

Tony Gugino who just finished his Senior season at Hillsdale College visited Wheaton, Hope and Calvin among others and settled on I believe a full ride to Hillsdale where he's had a very succesfull career.

Joel Kolmodin another that would have been on the Hope/Calvin radar.

These are some I remember quite clearly.

[thundermike]

Question---Most of the talk about the next WC head coach has centered on Schauer or one of the current ass't coaches. Does anyone think former assistant Paul Ferguson might be in the running?

I would say there is little possibility of Ferg being in the running. I played for him my senior year at Wheaton Academy, which was his first year coaching there. He made it very clear to our team that his goal is to build WA into a program that competes at the state level. After WA won a regional (its first in 10 years) and lost in the sectional semis this year (two wins from elite eight) I am sure he wants to keep going after those goals. With his two top scorers coming back, I am sure he feels that they will be very good again next season. One of those scorers is a guy named Tim Rusthoven, a 6'8" center who has 3 Div I offers on his plate already. I am sure Ferg would not want to go anywhere while Timmy is still around. He is very much in the business of player development--he is a great "teacher of the game" if you will. As Greg said, that type of coaching is best suited for the high school level.

Plus, he is more than just the coach at WA, he is also the AD. Every indication I have tells me that he is committed to WA for the long term.

  McCrary was also a name that was given to me, although I have some doubt about that one.

I know for a fact that Tim McCrary's college decision came down to Hope and Wheaton.

Also, a word on the whole evangelical school/Wheaton recruiting topic. It seems to me that most of the other evangelical schools are NAIA institutions. Is that a safe assumption? If so, that puts Wheaton in an even tougher spot because those schools can offer athletic scholarships.

[Ralph Turner]

Speaking from a perspective outside of Chicagoland, Wheaton is well-known in evangelical circles around the country.  They recruit nationally, probably moreso than any other CCIW school.  (Wheaton is the alma mater of Billy Graham!)

That cannot be underestimated!