MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Just can't see any 5's in the CCIW being All Region.  The future All Region 5's from the CCIW are current freshmen.  To be All Region you better have more than a drop step with your right foot and jump hook with your left hand.  All Region 5's must be able to use both hands, or be 6'10", strong and athletic.  This year will be more guard dominated in the CCIW.

6-10, strong, and athletic?  When was the last time a CCIW center met that description??

[CCIWFAN3]

Elmhurst the last 2 years.  Ruch wasn't exacly slow and weak. Zach Freeman (not 6'10)") but strong athletic and used both hands...and could drop step with either foot:)  Do like any players but IWU 's? Why don't we just name the top 10 IWU players all conference and all region before the first CCIW game is played this season.   

[Gregory Sager]

Just can't see any 5's in the CCIW being All Region.

Waaay too early to make that statement -- especially since you didn't tell us what non-CCIW centers are going to make the All-Region team.

Elmhurst the last 2 years.  Ruch wasn't exacly slow and weak.

He wasn't 6'10, either. He was 6'8. Nick Michael was 6'10, and a pretty good player to boot, but he wasn't noteworthy for his strength or athleticism.

[CCIWFAN3]

I don't know of nay non-CCIW All Region players.  Might not be any.  I didn't know All Region was by position..is it?

If you expect me to agree that a 5 player that averaged under 13 points a game and under 6 rebounds a game for a team that finshed next to last in their conference last season will be an All Region player this season.....then I would have to think it's a very very weak region.  Oh, and I rounded the stats up:)

[Gregory Sager]

I don't know of nay non-CCIW All Region players.  Might not be any.  I didn't know All Region was by position..is it?

It is, and it isn't. SIDs are asked to vote for six frontcourt players and four backcourt players. Just as the line between a backcourt player and a frontcourt player is not always clear-cut (hence, the term "swingman"), the All-Region ballot doesn't distinguish between forwards and centers. However, in each of the past two seasons all three All-Region teams for the Midwest Region (first team, second team, and third team) have each had a true center.

Furthermore, all eight All-Region forwards from last season (the first team only had one forward and one center) were seniors and are no longer eligible this season. In other words, the field is wide open for frontcourt players in 2009-10.

If you expect me to agree that a 5 player that averaged under 13 points a game and under 6 rebounds a game for a team that finshed next to last in their conference last season will be an All Region player this season.....then I would have to think it's a very very weak region.  Oh, and I rounded the stats up:)

1. Last season's statistics are just that, last season's statistics. They are vague indicators, and not necessarily predictors, of this season's stats.

2. Previous stats are not always good indicators for centers, who tend to advance by huge leaps in their games rather than by the smaller increments usually seen at other positions. It often takes a big man until his junior or senior year before he finally "gets it," but when he does, if he has the size and the skills he can become a drastically bigger force in the lineup than he previously was.

3. Again, you're arguing from a vacuum. You're saying that the CCIW has no centers who are of All-Region quality, yet you decline to name any centers from the HCAC, MWC, SLIAC, NAthC, or WashU/Chicago who are of All-Region quality, or who are at least better than this season's projected CCIW center crop. Somebody's gonna have to fill those All-Region slots. If not CCIW players, then who?

4. I think we all know that the Midwest Region is not a "very, very weak region." In fact, it's basically the opposite.

5. What center in particular are you referring to with your "under 13 points a game and under 6 rebounds a game" statistics? The "finished next-to-last in their conference" bit leads me to believe that you're referring to IWU's Doug Sexauer, but: a) Sexauer's probably going to be IWU's power forward this season, not the center; and b) I, for one, have never argued that Sexauer is going to be an All-Region player. In fact, I don't necessarily agree with some of the other posters here that Sexauer is gonna be first- or second-team All-CCIW. He might be, but from where I'm sitting it looks like far less than a given.

[CCIWFAN3]

Well if they have to vote for post players then I guess it is wide open.  I didn't know there was a quota.

I never said there weren't any CCIW all region posts ....just no IWU all region posts.  The post play this year in the CCIW will not be game deciders though.  Ruch, Wheaton's big man could decide a game.  There are no posts like that this year...just freshmen who will be in a couple years.  And Doug did play the 5 last year, and they don't have a 5 to take his spot. It was predicted in an earlier post that he would be all region. I agree you can't go by last years stats....then don't predict a future all star with no facts or previous accomplishments to back it up.  That's the vacum!  I agree many bigs develop later... Ruch was one that developed later, along with Zach, Drenan...and they became great ball players.  Will never understand why Trost let Ruch slip through to Elmhurst.   

[Gregory Sager]

I never said there weren't any CCIW all region posts

Actually, that's exactly what you said:

Just can't see any 5's in the CCIW being All Region.

If you've rethought that and changed your mind, that's OK. Just say that you've changed your mind, rather than claiming that you never said the CCIW had a dearth of All-Region centers.

just no IWU all region posts.

I figured that you were talking about Sexauer all along, with your right-foot-drop-step and lefty hook reference and then the later quotation of the statistics of the seventh-place team's post player. But for some reason you never cited him by name, so I didn't want to assume anything.

The post play this year in the CCIW will not be game deciders though.  Ruch, Wheaton's big man could decide a game.  There are no posts like that this year...just freshmen who will be in a couple years.

I don't agree. Again, it's too early to write off the entire crop of CCIW centers, for one thing. For another, I can think of a few CCIW centers who just may step up and become dominant forces. We've already discussed one, NPU's Phil Schniedermeier, and Augie's Kyle Nelson and Millikin's Joscar Demby might be significant inside presences as well. And while Jacob Carwell has essentially been Wiele's sidekick for the past two seasons at Wheaton, he is a player who has started for three years already (two at Wheaton, one at Benedictine). Carwell has the size, experience, and athletic ability to be a strong low-post player, although I still have my doubts about him.

Voids tend to be filled, and the league as a whole never has an eight-man crop of mediocre centers. Some years have more high-performing centers in the CCIW than others, of course, but there's never a total absence of them. Even if there doesn't turn out to be a Ruch or a Wiele in the bunch, that doesn't mean that the CCIW will have a complete void at center this season.

And Doug did play the 5 last year, and they don't have a 5 to take his spot.

Yes, Sexauer did play center last season, but that does not mean that the status quo will hold for IWU. In fact, Bob seems to think it will change. Here's his thoughts from this past week on the subject of IWU's starting lineup:

Seems to me IWU's biggest question mark is at the starting center position.  When the dust settles with position battles, the Titans should have 4 very solid starters/reserves...

1 - Travis Rosenkranz/Sean Dwyer
2 - Sean Johnson/Jordan Zimmer
3 - John Koschnitzky/Matt Schick
4 - Doug Sexauer/Duncan Lawson?/other?
5 - Ryan Connolly?/Ed O'Callaghan?/other?

He acknowledges that the possibility remains that Wesleyan will start Sexauer at center and shift Koschnitzky to power forward and play Zimmer at small forward alongside the Rosenkrantz/Johnson backcourt, but the above quote seems to indicate that Sexauer will be the PF alongside Connolly or O'Callaghan down low. Given Bob's closeness to the IWU program, I put a lot of stock in what he says about that team's lineup.

It was predicted in an earlier post that he would be all region.

Not so fast! That's not what Bob said. This is what Bob said:

Doug Sexauer should be one of the premier big guys in the CCIW (maybe the region),

The terms "maybe" and "would be" are not the same thing at all. And the other CCIW Chat poster who is touting Sexauer, AndOne, never said anything about All-Region status at all:

With regard to Doug Sexauer, I'll just say I expect him to be a likely 1st team all conference selection, and 2nd team at the minimum. If not, the single, simple reason (baring injury) will be a failure to work hard.

And that's just two guys' opinions. They don't represent the thoughts of the entire room ... nor do I, nor do the three of us put together.

I agree you can't go by last years stats....then don't predict a future all star with no facts or previous accomplishments to back it up.  That's the vacum!

Well, your argument here is with Bob and AndOne, and not me ... but, again, somebody somewhere is gonna put up some big stat lines in 2009-10 among CCIW low-post players. That's simply how the game of basketball works ... unless all eight CCIW head coaches decide to adopt Bob's old joke about the five-guard offense as an actual basis for forming a basketball team.

[Titan Q]

Doug Sexauer has primarily played the 4 in his career at IWU.  Brett Chamernik has been the starting 5 the last 2 years.  Sexauer is expected to play the 4 again this season.

[John Gleich]

Darn it Greg, you're using people's ACTUAL words against them...  they don't tend to like that!

[Gregory Sager]

Doug Sexauer has primarily played the 4 in his career at IWU.  Brett Chamernik has been the starting 5 the last 2 years.  Sexauer is expected to play the 4 again this season.

Right, which is why I posted your projected starting lineup from last week. But I took CCIWFAN3, when he said that Sexauer "played the 5,"  to mean, "Sexauer moved over to center when Chamernik was hurt or getting a breather on the bench." Admittedly, he did say that "they don't have a 5 to take his spot," as if the center position and not the power forward position was Sexauer's primary spot, but I figured that I'd give CCIWFAN3 the benefit of the doubt.

I may have added to the confusion by referring to IWU's "status quo," by which I meant the five players who logged the most time last season (Rosenkrantz, Johnson, Zimmer, Koschnitzky, and Sexauer). If you look at it on a position-by-position basis, though, Sexauer at PF is the status quo, and there is no center as of yet.

Darn it Greg, you're using people's ACTUAL words against them...  they don't tend to like that!

Yeah, it's a nasty habit I must've picked up somewhere.

[Titan Q]

As Greg posted, my original statement was:

Doug Sexauer should be one of the premier big guys in the CCIW (maybe the region).


So to that point, here is a look at 2009 offensive production (CCIW games only) from guys who played the 4 or 5 (from a post I made a couple months ago)...


Power Forward & Center (4 & 5)
Brent Ruch (EC), 6-9 Sr. - 17.7 ppg, 7.4 rpg, .610 FG
Chris Drennan (NCC), 6-5 Sr. - 16.0 ppg, 6.2 rpg, .518 FG
Matt Rogers (NCC), 6-4 Sr. – 14.9 ppg, 3.9 rpg, .497 FG
Nick Williams (NPU), 6-5 Jr. - 13.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, .622 FG
Doug Sexauer (IWU), 6-7 So. - 13.4 ppg, 5.1 rpg, .553 FG
Andy Wiele (WC), 6-8 Sr. – 11.9 ppg, 840 rpg, .596 FG
Joscar Demby (MU), 6-7 Jr. – 10.6 ppg, 5.3 rpg, .606 FG
Phil Schniedermeier (NPU), 6-7 So. – 9.9 ppg, 5.6 rpg, .481 FG
Robert Burton (MU), 6-4 Jr. - 8.6 ppg, 4.4 rpg, .549 FG
Adam Tolo (CC), 6-6 Jr.  – 8.0 ppg, 3.7 rpg, .415 FG
Chandlor Collins (AC), 6-7 Sr. - 7.5 ppg, 9.6 rpg, .500 FG
Justin Bertrand (AC), 6-6 Sr. - 7.3 ppg, 3.5 rpg, .516 FG
Robert Strzemp (EC), 6-4 Sr. - 7.0 ppg, 3.8 rpg, .473 FG
Kyle Nelson (AC), 6-7 So. - 6.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, .544 FG
Brett Chamernik (IWU), 6-5 Sr. – 5.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, .588 FG
Jake Carwell (WC), 6-7 Jr. – 5.1 ppg, 4.4 rpg, .491 FG
Bryant Voiles (AC), 6-8 So. – 4.9 ppg, 2.9 rpg, .568 FG
Emmanuel Crosby (NPU), 6-7 Fr. - 4.3 ppg, 1.8 rpg, .571 FG
Edmond O'Callaghan (IWU), 6-7 So. – 4.2 ppg, 2.8 rpg, .629 FG
Richard Williams (CC), 6-6 Jr. – 3.9 ppg, 2.9 rpg, .465 FG


There may be new players to the league who end up making an impact in the low post in 2009-10 - like Augustana freshman Luke Scarlata or North Central transfer Joe Meyerhoff, for example.  And I'm sure there are some players previously blocked by older players who are now ready to emerge at the varsity level.  But I feel pretty comfortable with my statement that Doug Sexauer enters this season as "one of the premier" low post players in the CCIW.


As far as the region goes, while I never predicted "all-region" status for Sexauer, as Greg pointed out, every low post player from the 2009 D3hoops.com All-Midwest Region team is gone...


Brian Fogerty (Fontbonne, 1st Team), 6-4 Sr – 19.8 ppg, 10.6 rpg, .586 FG
Brent Ruch (Elmhurst, 1st Team), 6-9 Sr - 17.7 ppg, 7.4 rpg, .610 FG

Andy Horton (Beloit, 2nd Team),  6-7 Sr – 18.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, .530 FG
Tyler Nading (Wash U, 2nd Team), 6-7 Sr – 13.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, .534 FG
Andy Wiele (Wheaton, 2nd Team), 6-8 Sr. – 11.9 ppg, 840 rpg, .596 FG

Chris Drennan (NCC, 3rd Team), 6-5 Sr - 16.0 ppg, 6.2 rpg, .518 FG
Joey Verax (Transylvania, 3rd Team), 6-5 Sr. – 16.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg, .538 FG
Anthony Pettaway (Defiance 3rd Team), 6-8 Sr. – 16.8 ppg, 9.5 rpg, .555 FG


Again, I don't feel like I'm making any kind of over-the-top statement by saying Sexauer might end up being "one of the premier" Midwest region big guys.

We'll see how it plays out.  Maybe a bunch of "6-10, strong, athletic" low posts will transfer in from the ACC and Big Ten, who knows.

[robberki]

this really jumped out at me:


Andy Horton (Beloit, 2nd Team),  6-7 Sr – 18.7 ppg, 10.2 rpg, .530 FG
Tyler Nading (Wash U, 2nd Team), 6-7 Sr – 13.6 ppg, 5.8 rpg, .534 FG
Andy Wiele (Wheaton, 2nd Team), 6-8 Sr. – 11.9 ppg, 840 rpg, .596 FG

just at first glance, I'd say it's going to be tough for Wheaton to replace Wiele's 840 rebounds per game.

[CCIWFAN3]

He must have been "6-10, strong, athletic" to average 840/game.

Cute TQ!

[titanhammer]

Just can't see any 5's in the CCIW being All Region.  The future All Region 5's from the CCIW are current freshmen.  To be All Region you better have more than a drop step with your right foot and jump hook with your left hand.  All Region 5's must be able to use both hands, or be 6'10", strong and athletic.  This year will be more guard dominated in the CCIW.

6-10, strong, and athletic?  When was the last time a CCIW center met that description??

1991...David Caldwell...oh, wait...he was 6'11".

[Gregory Sager]

Just can't see any 5's in the CCIW being All Region.  The future All Region 5's from the CCIW are current freshmen.  To be All Region you better have more than a drop step with your right foot and jump hook with your left hand.  All Region 5's must be able to use both hands, or be 6'10", strong and athletic.  This year will be more guard dominated in the CCIW.

6-10, strong, and athletic?  When was the last time a CCIW center met that description??

1991...David Caldwell...oh, wait...he was 6'11".

Caldwell was strong? I remember him being a skinny finesse player.