MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[CCIWFAN3]

Greg, Zimmer may not be the slasher that is needed in a 3 guard but his shooting range still is one of the best.  I think his penetration has improved along with his defense. If I was a point guard with penetration skills, I'd sure want Zimmer in shooting position ready to receive the ball in the corner or wing. His release is fairly quick too.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, Zimmer may not be the slasher that is needed in a 3 guard but his shooting range still is one of the best.  I think his penetration has improved along with his defense. If I was a point guard with penetration skills, I'd sure want Zimmer in shooting position ready to receive the ball in the corner or wing. His release is fairly quick too.

Zimmer is undeniably a terrific shooter, but last year he couldn't put the ball on the floor at all -- I'm not even talking about penetration, I'm talking overall ballhandling while being guarded -- and on the defensive end of the floor he couldn't guard his own shadow. He didn't rebound, either (only 1.3 rpg), which is surprising considering that he was usually matched up against a smaller player. The fact that he didn't put the ball on the floor or work the boards explains why he only shot 13 free throws for the entire season, in spite of the fact that he appeared in all 25 games for the Titans and averaged over 18 mpg.

Just as you won't rank a freshman big man high until he proves himself, Zimmer shouldn't be highly ranked, either, until he proves that he's more than a one-dimensional player.

[CCIWFAN3]

Ok, I'll buy that.  But...when teams play a small lineup....a 3 guard may not need to be a slasher to be effective for the team.  I'd still start Zimmer at the 3 and put John K. at the 4.  John can slash...to some extent, and Zimmer adds that additiional offensive threat.   
Ok...now show me your picks:)  I'll even say this...the most athletic team will win the conference this year.   Not deepest, or biggest, but the most athletic!

[Titan Q]

So let's say we're evaluating Zimmer vs the projected CCIW starting 2-guards (and right now, that is where the majority of Zimmer's minutes are projected to come from)...

SG (2)
1 Sean Fendley, 6-1 (Sr) - Carthage
2 Sean Johnson, 6-1 (Jr) - IWU
3 Reid Barringer, 6-0 (Sr) - NCC
4 Shaun Collins, 6-2 (Jr) – North Park
5 Brian DeSimone, 6-1 (So) - Augustana
6 Andrew Jahns, 6-2 (Jr) - Wheaton
7 Chris Childs, 6-2 (Sr) - Elmhurst
8 Charles Warren, 6-2 (Sr) - Millikin

Who are the CCIW-proven "multi-dimensional" players on the list?  I see a list of guys that, right now, all have some kind of gap in their game.  Some can handle it, but not shoot it that well.  Others are great shooters that don't do much else.  Some pass it well, defend, etc...other do not.

This is a list of the players who took 50 or more 3-pointers in CCIW play last season and shot 30% or better...

1 Jordan Zimmer, 30-62 (.484)
2 Ryan Burks, 33-72 (.458)
T3  Steve Djurickovic, 25-55 (.455)
T3 Mitch Raridon, 25-55 (.455)
5 Nick Williams, 25-64 (.391)
6 Sean Fendley, 32-82 (.390)
7 Kent Raymond, 24-68 (.353)
8 Reed Barringer, 28-80 (.350)
9 Sean Johnson, 21-60 (.350)
10 Travis Rosenkranz, 17-50 (.340)
11 Adam Tolo, 21-60 (.333)
12 Ben Panner, 16-49 (.327)

There is no question Jordan Zimmer needs to become more than just a spot-up shooter in order to reach his potential, but even right now – as just a shooter – I think he stacks up very favorably among the CCIW 2-guards.  All have their areas of strength (and weakness), and in terms of shooting the basketball (a big part of being a "shooting guard") Zimmer is as good as any.  His height (6-5) is a huge advantage - it's hard for a smaller defender to close-out on him and stop him from getting his shot off from the arc.

[Gregory Sager]

Well, part of the problem with the whole ranking thing -- not that I'm knocking your or FAN3's attempts to do so, Bob, since they're obviously good conversation fodder -- is right there in your use of the term "CCIW-proven". Numerous players that are projected to be CCIW starters have never even suited up for a game yet, including one of the shooting guards you've listed (junior transfer Shaun Collins of NPU). That introduces a whole bunch of x factors into the rankings. The same thing holds true for Aaron Garriott of Wheaton, f'rinstance.

I'm also not all that certain that these are the players that will be matched up against each other. The guard situations of some teams (Wheaton, for example) are fairly fluid.

Having said all that, I agree that the CCIW doesn't appear to have a lot of proven all-around games among the eight players that you've listed as starting shooting guards. And I've already stated that Zimmer is a terrific shooter. Nevertheless, based upon what I saw last season, I don't see anything to Zimmer's game at the moment aside from his perimeter shooting ability.

[CCIWFAN3]

Refresh my memory on Collins' stats and level of competition where he has played.

[Titan Q]

Well, part of the problem with the whole ranking thing -- not that I'm knocking your or FAN3's attempts to do so, Bob, since they're obviously good conversation fodder -- is right there in your use of the term "CCIW-proven". Numerous players that are projected to be CCIW starters have never even suited up for a game yet, including one of the shooting guards you've listed (junior transfer Shaun Collins of NPU). That introduces a whole bunch of x factors into the rankings. The same thing holds true for Aaron Garriott of Wheaton, f'rinstance.

I'm also not all that certain that these are the players that will be matched up against each other. The guard situations of some teams (Wheaton, for example) are fairly fluid.

Having said all that, I agree that the CCIW doesn't appear to have a lot of proven all-around games among the eight players that you've listed as starting shooting guards. And I've already stated that Zimmer is a terrific shooter. Nevertheless, based upon what I saw last season, I don't see anything to Zimmer's game at the moment aside from his perimeter shooting ability.

There is no question that, as a freshman, he was just a shooter.  My best guess is that he'll be a similar player in 2009-10 and start to add more dimension sometime his junior year.  I'm basically just going by what I have seen from similar CCIW players over the years - guys who were primarily spot-up 3-point shooters but learned to take it to the basket, score from the mid-range, etc..  I think fellow Central Illinois small towners Ryan Knuppel and Ryan Burks made that type of transition as they got older.

With Zimmer, improved strength is key.  Last year as a freshman he was 6-5/180...I've heard this year he is 6-5/200.  Physical maturity is a big part of becoming multi-dimensional.

[dansand]

Refresh my memory on Collins' stats and level of competition where he has played.

Oakton CC  GP   FG-FGA   Pct 3FG-FGA   Pct  FT-FTA   Pct  Off Def  Tot  Avg   A  TO Blk Stl  Pts  Avg
2007-08... 28  110-281  .392  67-197  .340  50-66   .758    -   -   91  3.3  42   -   -  36  337 12.0 
2008-09... 30  141-387  .364  95-307  .309  84-143  .587   26  87  113  3.8 103  41   4  53  461 15.4

Although no one, and I mean no one, is sure what Augie's starting lineup will look like when they open the season on November 16, my impression of who Coach G and staff would like to start if everyone was healthy (they're not) would be this:

1-Brian DeSimone
2-Matt Pelton
3-Bryant Voiles
4-Kyle Nelson
5-Terrence Green

Coach G mentioned Voiles' bone spurs and Chris Anderson's broken hand during the online coach's chat. Green is also nursing a stress fracture.

[Gregory Sager]

There is no question that, as a freshman, he was just a shooter.  My best guess is that he'll be a similar player in 2009-10 and start to add more dimension sometime his junior year.  I'm basically just going by what I have seen from similar CCIW players over the years - guys who were primarily spot-up 3-point shooters but learned to take it to the basket, score from the mid-range, etc..  I think fellow Central Illinois small towners Ryan Knuppel and Ryan Burks made that type of transition as they got older.

With Zimmer, improved strength is key.  Last year as a freshman he was 6-5/180...I've heard this year he is 6-5/200.  Physical maturity is a big part of becoming multi-dimensional.

I certainly agree with all of this. I don't think that any of us expects a player to remain static in terms of size and skills as he progresses from a freshman into a senior. We all do a certain amount of projecting the future when we look at an 18-year-old player. But improvement isn't a given, either, particularly in specific skill areas.

Refresh my memory on Collins' stats and level of competition where he has played.

Collins played two years for Oakton CC. Last season, as the team captain of the Raiders, he led the team with 17 ppg, averaging 4 rpg and 4 apg as well. He was named to the All-Skyway Conference first team and was the NJCAA District B Player of the Week back in December of last season. Prior to that, he was a three-time All-Upstate Eight player for Aurora East.

The Skyway Conference is an NJCAA Division II circuit that produces a goodly number of D2, D3, and NAIA players but not a whole lot of D1 players. The level of play isn't that much better than the CCIW's junior varsity level; in fact, I've seen plenty of CCIW JV teams beat Skyway Conference jucos.

I haven't seen Collins play in formal competition, only in open gyms and the intrasquad scrimmage eight days ago. But I've seen enough of him to recognize that he's certainly a CCIW-caliber player. He bears a strong resemblance to his older brother, former NPU shooting guard Jason Collins, both physically and in terms of playing style. And Jason was a second-team All-CCIW player in 2001-02, so he's a good role model as far as patterning one's game is concerned. Do I think that Shaun's gonna be an All-CCIW player as well? I'm not going there.

[Titan Q]

Augie modified per dansand's post...


Augustana
G Brian DeSimone, 6-1 (So)
G Matt Pelton, 6-2 (Sr)
F Bryant Voiles, 6-9 (Jr)
F Kyle Nelson, 6-9 (Jr)
C Terrence Green, 6-10 (Sr)

Carthage
G Steve Djurickovic, 6-3 (Jr)
G Sean Fendley, 6-1 (Sr)
F Adam Tolo, 6-6 (Sr)
F Raul Guzman, 6-6 (Fr)
F Tyler Pierce, 6-5 (Fr)

Elmhurst
G Dustin Bainter, 6-2 (Sr)
G Chris Childs, 6-2 (Sr)
G Zack Boyd, 6-2 (So)
G Joe Acosta, 6-2 (Jr)
F Wes Dukeman, 6-9 (So)

Illinois Wesleyan
G Travis Rosenkranz, 6-0 (Jr)
G Sean Johnson, 6-1 (Jr)
F John Koschnitzky, 6-6 (So)
F Doug Sexauer, 6-7 (Jr)
C Edmond O'Callaghan, 6-7 (Jr)

Millikin
G Corey Mitchell, 6-0 (Sr)
G Charles Warren, 6-2 (Sr)
G Devin Demby, 6-2 (Sr)
F Robert Burton, 6-4 (Sr)
C Joscar Demby, 6-7 (Sr)

North Central
G Jon Knapczyk, 6-1 (Sr)
G Reid Barringer, 6-0 (Sr)
F David Twyman, 6-3 (Sr)
F Derek Raridon, 6-6 (Fr)
C Joe Meyerhoff, 6-8 (Fr)

North Park
G Roshawn Russell, 5-10 (So)
G Shaun Collins, 6-2 (Jr)
F Kendall Greer, 6-4 (Jr)
F Nick Williams, 6-5 (Sr)
C Phil Schniedermeier, 6-7 (Jr)

Wheaton
G Aaron Garriott, 6-3 (So)
G Andrew Jahns, 6-2 (Jr)
G Ben Panner, 6-3 (Sr)
F Tim McCrary, 6-6 (So)
C Jake Carlwell, 6-7 (Sr)

[Titan Q]

If Augie starts that lineup, they'll be taller than most DI's.

[AndOne]

"However, if I am candid, this team has not shown the day in and day out commitment to practice at the intensity level necessary to compete in this league. This league shows no mercy. You bring it every night or you lose."

Wheaton Head Coach Mike Schauer public comments on the efforts to date of his OWN team

wanna be's
daydreamers

Perhaps there is some degree of truth to this statement, but consider the possibility that Coach Schauer is:
1. Trying to establish his own identity/authority and put his own mark on the WC program after replacing a successful long term coach.
2.  Engaging in a little psychological motivation of his players.

Even seen a coach who thought his players were either committed/intense enough or who were practicing at 100% efficiency. If so, I'll bet that coach's winning percentage percentage is somewhere south of the break even line.

[CCIWFAN3]

Thanks Greg.  I didn't know anything about Oakton.  Just wondered if they were like a Highland...guess not.  He sounds athletic though.

[dansand]

If Augie starts that lineup, they'll be taller than most DI's.

Unfortunately, given their current health issues, the possibility of that lineup looks like it's a ways off. Voiles, Green and Anderson didn't play in their intrasquad scrimmage Saturday. They're hoping everyone is out of casts and able to take the floor by the time the season starts, but it's not a sure thing and even if they can go, I'm not sure they'll be ready to play a lot of minutes right away.

[AndOne]

Ranking of players is anybody's guess, and is influenced by many variables including the various strengths of teammates.
I'll just throw out 2 things for consideration.

1. We all know who the best guard in the CCIW (and one of the best in the country) is.
I'd submit that with the combination of his speed, ball handling, ability to distribute, and scoring ability, Roshawn Russell is the 2nd best guard in the conference, bar none.

2. If we're ranking the 5s, I think Demby may be the most athletic of the bunch, and Carwell the most accomplished and best overall. Keep in mind that his scoring and rebounding were no doubt held down by the presence last season of Raymond, Wiele, and to some extent, McCrary. Also, for a "big" he had great stats as far as assists and steals. 
To rank Schneidermeier, and especially a slug like O'Callaghan ahead of him is sheer folly.