MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

AO, the fact is that alot of parameters go into a 17-18 year old making a decision on a school.  Yes, maybe he wanted to go to Augustana all along but was unsure of financial aid or just wanted time to make a good decision.  At that point you have to keep other options open.  I don't know the situation closely, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.

The bigger issue I have is you making disparaging remarks or airing out heresay about young men who have not chosen to go the Naperville route.  (Previous to this were your comments on Guzman at Carthage). 

Hardwood--

Your first post on the Norton question reflected your inexperience and naivete. However, this one demonstrates both your total disregard of the facts as related directly to me by one coach and confirmed by another over this past summer.
Both advised that they felt Mr. Norton was indeed "playing" them when he indicated his continued interest in their respective schools, in that he had already really made his decision to attend Augie. These are the facts. You were not privy to these conversations, and, accordingly, lack the direct knowledge your post inferred you had. MY post was not my opinion on the subject, but merely a reporting of conversations I had with people who were directly involved in his recruitment and are in a much better position to judge the sincerity of statements than someone like yourself who had no direct involvement in the situation. Given the fact that Mr. Norton's HS coach attended and played for Augie, its not too difficult to envision the fact that Augie was likely his first choice all along as you yourself opined above.   
As I told Augie 22 above, I think a kid should go with what feels right to him, no matter his choice. The point was that I don't think its unreasonable for coaches to expect a college age young man to respect their time by being direct and truthful as to his level of interest and his intentions. I'm sure if you asked him, Coach Giovanine would confirm that he too would appreciate the same degree of honesty from prospective recruits.

The 2nd part of your post concerning "disparaging remarks" and "heresay" (I think you mean hearsay) reflects your affinity to not only display a total lack of knowledge and understanding of a subject, but also to demonstrate your expertise in  telling half the story to suit your own distorted view of a situation. As far as any disparaging remarks, I simply related what I was told directly by several people. This is neither my opinion nor rumor or unsubstantiated information. During the basketball season I attend a HS game just about every Tuesday and Friday night. I talk directly with many HS and college coaches as well as parents at those games. During last season, I had 2 coaches and a parent all tell me the same thing about the kid in question that being that while he is a very good basketball player, he historically does his own thing, and that any school accepting him would basically have to assign a staff member to monitor him on a full time basis to keep him on the proper path and out of trouble both academically and behaviorally. Rather than hearsay, this is factual reporting of face to face conversations with adults familiar with his daily activities and history.
Even more repugnant is your conveniently leaving out the fact that rather than making only "disparaging remarks" in my post #19802 on 7/29/09 as you allege, I pointed out that:

"Raul's skill on the court actually began to stand out to stand out during his soph season at Cicero Morton. It became more apparent 2 yrs ago in then his junior year, and came to the forefront last season when he was named West Suburban Conference Gold Division POY. He really stepped up when All-Sate teammate Luke Scarlata went down with an appendectomy and missed 8 or 10 games. Raul lacks quickness, but has good footwork and is tough inside. He can also step outside and reliably hit the 3, converting 37% from beyond the arc last season. Additionally, he is an adept passer for a big man, dishing out almost 4 apg. His basketball shortcomings are primarily related to his lack of quickness--he doesn't run the floor well, and a large percentage of his rebounds were obtained as a result of the ball bouncing directly to him off the rim/board as he lacks lateral quickness to move to the ball. This also makes him a defensive liability particularly in man coverage."

And "Of course, this is not to say kids don't mature or that any particular coaching staff cannot effectively prevent or manage any disruptive situations that may arise.
Much luck to Mr. Guzman at CC."

I think there are at least a few remarks in there that most people wouldn't classify as "disparaging." Also, I think most people familiar with his play would agree that the "negative" remarks are a very accurate description of his game.

Lastly, your comment about "young men who have not chosen to go the Naperville route" is laughably absurd, especially considering the fact he was not recruited by the "Naperville school" as he couldn't qualify academically. Accordingly, there was no choice involved. 
   


   

[Titan Q]

Q, for any posters who don't know, you should probably identify that you are the 'midget' on the right in that photo!

And I am a legit 6-3.  Consider that and the fact that Titan Hammer is 6-7 and it becomes apparent just how tall 7-0 looks!

[Titan Q]

Hardwood--

Your first post on the Norton question reflected your inexperience and naivete. However, this one demonstrates both your total disregard of the facts as related directly to me by one coach and confirmed by another over this past summer.
Both advised that they felt Mr. Norton was indeed "playing" them when he indicated his continued interest in their respective schools, in that he had already really made his decision to attend Augie. These are the facts. You were not privy to these conversations, and, accordingly, lack the direct knowledge your post inferred you had. MY post was not my opinion on the subject, but merely a reporting of conversations I had with people who were directly involved in his recruitment and are in a much better position to judge the sincerity of statements than someone like yourself who had no direct involvement in the situation. Given the fact that Mr. Norton's HS coach attended and played for Augie, its not too difficult to envision the fact that Augie was likely his first choice all along as you yourself opined above.   
As I told Augie 22 above, I think a kid should go with what feels right to him, no matter his choice. The point was that I don't think its unreasonable for coaches to expect a college age young man to respect their time by being direct and truthful as to his level of interest and his intentions. I'm sure if you asked him, Coach Giovanine would confirm that he too would appreciate the same degree of honesty from prospective recruits.

Mark, note however, you're forming an opinion solely based on what two coaches told you (that Norton was "playing" them).  As the saying goes, there are two sides to every story - you only have one side.  I'm sure the coaches you talked to really did feel that way...but it doesn't mean they were right.  Coaches say and do and think all kinds of weird stuff during the recruiting process.

I don't know anything about what happened in the recruitment of Kameron Norton, but it doesn't make sense to me for a kid to intentionally "play" schools, only to have to tell more coaches "no" (most kids dread that process after they've made a decision).  And in general, what would Norton get out of playing anyone?  I don't get that.

I guess all I'm saying is, from what you've posted, I don't think you could really have any idea if this kid played anyone.  So why even take on the subject publicly?  I mean, you are calling Norton a liar here.  I just don't think that is appropriate.

[AndOne]

Bob--

I acknowledge that there likely was no intent to intentionally deceive the other coaches involved in the process. I just reported what was told to me directly by 2 different coaches. We did not get into whether they thought they were being intentionally deceived, only that they thought the player in question had already basically made his decision. Perhaps Mr. Norton just wanted to avoid what he foresaw as a confrontational situation by telling the coaches he was no longer interested when he was in a face to face discussion with those coaches at the time. Even as adults, we often shy away from perceived confrontations so this is perfectly understandable in the case of an 18 year old.

The thing that ticked me off was Hardwood's labeling the details of everything I said as "disparaging" when I specifically mentioned that both of the kids involved are very good players, and gave details of their play in support of my view. He attempted to disparage my firsthand account of the details without ever being a part of my discussions with the sources involved who, probably unlike himself, had direct contact and therefore knowledge of the players actions. Based on the level of my involvement on both the local HS and college (CCIW) level, which I believe you and several of our other veteran posters are aware of, I, like many of us here, hear a lot of things and have some degree of knowledge of behind the scene goings on that others not so deeply involved don't always have. My reports were not my personal opinions, but rather based on direct conversations with people who have very close relationships and firsthand knowledge of the concerned individuals.     

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Q, for any posters who don't know, you should probably identify that you are the 'midget' on the right in that photo!

And I am a legit 6-3.  Consider that and the fact that Titan Hammer is 6-7 and it becomes apparent just how tall 7-0 looks!

I'm a legit 6-3, too - both vertically and horizontally - 

[AndOne]

Bob--

Having had the pleasure of meeting you, I can confirm you are indeed a legit 6'3"
Additionally, I believe modesty prevented you from adding that although you're 6'3" you played at a 6'6" level!      

[AndOne]

(I think Loras was picked for the middle of the pack in the IIAC)

The Duhawks were picked to finish in a three-way tie for sixth in the nine-school IIAC -- in other words, next-to-last -- so it appears that the IIAC coaches are looking for a significant drop-off from a Duhawks program that has been one of the league's elite over the past five years, finishing (going backwards, starting with 2008-09) third, second, first, fourth, and second.

Of course, this is a preseason coaches poll we're talking about, and I didn't bother to check on the past accuracy of the IIAC braintrust.

Greg,
As I get older, my "middle" gets bigger, so now I consider the middle of a nine-team league to be anywhere from second to eighth. 

Dan----

Fabulous!
I'm still laughing! 
+K

[AndOne]

Took in the scrimmage in the city last night between North Central and a much taller and "beefier" U of Chicago team.
Rather than resetting the score at the end of the 1st half as usual in a scrimmage, the 1st half score remained on the board.
Chicago led 45-36 at the half on the strength of strong inside play and good outside marksmanship. The 2nd half, largely featuring the same first 8 or so players for both teams, saw NCC outscore the Maroons by 13 to take an 81-77 decision.
Keying the Cards 2nd half turnaround was the superior defensive play of jr transfer Mike Saris. He blanketed the Maroons' PG, effectively disrupting the offensive flow that had led to their 9 point halftime advantage. The other Cards also bore down harder defensively in the 2nd stanza despite giving away as much as 3 inches and 20-30 pounds in many match ups.
North Central shot 57 percent (24/42) from the field including 47 percent (8/17) from beyond the arc. They cashed in at an 80.8 percent rate (21/26) from the line. The Cards turned the ball over 11 times, not bad at this early point in the season.
The Cards were led in scoring by senior Reid Barringer who dropped in 27 including 6 for 9 from downtown. He was well supported by both senior Kyle Julius (2 long 3s) and freshman Derek Raridon with 13 apiece. Senior vet David Twyman slashed through and around the Maroon defenders for 11 on 5 for 7 shooting, and freshman Brandon Stanciel hit on 4 of his 6 attempts that featured a mix of nice turnaround bank shots and strong inside moves against a much bigger defender. Brian Evans contributed 6 points and dazzled the "crowd" with both a dribbling display while on his knees after winning a hard fought rebound, and a couple of no look over the shoulder and behind the head passes.

[wheels81]

Took in the scrimmage in the city last night between North Central and a much taller and "beefier" U of Chicago team.
Rather than resetting the score at the end of the 1st half as usual in a scrimmage, the 1st half score remained on the board.
Chicago led 45-36 at the half on the strength of strong inside play and good outside marksmanship. The 2nd half, largely featuring the same first 8 or so players for both teams, saw NCC outscore the Maroons by 13 to take an 81-77 decision.
Keying the Cards 2nd half turnaround was the superior defensive play of jr transfer Mike Saris. He blanketed the Maroons' PG, effectively disrupting the offensive flow that had led to their 9 point halftime advantage. The other Cards also bore down harder defensively in the 2nd stanza despite giving away as much as 3 inches and 20-30 pounds in many match ups.
North Central shot 57 percent (24/42) from the field including 47 percent (8/17) from beyond the arc. They cashed in at an 80.8 percent rate (21/26) from the line. The Cards turned the ball over 11 times, not bad at this early point in the season.
The Cards were led in scoring by senior Reid Barringer who dropped in 27 including 6 for 9 from downtown. He was well supported by both senior Kyle Julius (2 long 3s) and freshman Derek Raridon with 13 apiece. Senior vet David Twyman slashed through and around the Maroon defenders for 11 on 5 for 7 shooting, and freshman Brandon Stanciel hit on 4 of his 6 attempts that featured a mix of nice turnaround bank shots and strong inside moves against a much bigger defender. Brian Evans contributed 6 points and dazzled the "crowd" with both a dribbling display while on his knees after winning a hard fought rebound, and a couple of no look over the shoulder and behind the head passes.

Didn't know the Harlem Globetotters were in Naperville! 

[Hardwood]

AO, the fact is that alot of parameters go into a 17-18 year old making a decision on a school.  Yes, maybe he wanted to go to Augustana all along but was unsure of financial aid or just wanted time to make a good decision.  At that point you have to keep other options open.  I don't know the situation closely, but I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.

The bigger issue I have is you making disparaging remarks or airing out heresay about young men who have not chosen to go the Naperville route.  (Previous to this were your comments on Guzman at Carthage). 

Hardwood--

Your first post on the Norton question reflected your inexperience and naivete. However, this one demonstrates both your total disregard of the facts as related directly to me by one coach and confirmed by another over this past summer.
Both advised that they felt Mr. Norton was indeed "playing" them when he indicated his continued interest in their respective schools, in that he had already really made his decision to attend Augie. These are the facts. You were not privy to these conversations, and, accordingly, lack the direct knowledge your post inferred you had. MY post was not my opinion on the subject, but merely a reporting of conversations I had with people who were directly involved in his recruitment and are in a much better position to judge the sincerity of statements than someone like yourself who had no direct involvement in the situation. Given the fact that Mr. Norton's HS coach attended and played for Augie, its not too difficult to envision the fact that Augie was likely his first choice all along as you yourself opined above.   
As I told Augie 22 above, I think a kid should go with what feels right to him, no matter his choice. The point was that I don't think its unreasonable for coaches to expect a college age young man to respect their time by being direct and truthful as to his level of interest and his intentions. I'm sure if you asked him, Coach Giovanine would confirm that he too would appreciate the same degree of honesty from prospective recruits.

The 2nd part of your post concerning "disparaging remarks" and "heresay" (I think you mean hearsay) reflects your affinity to not only display a total lack of knowledge and understanding of a subject, but also to demonstrate your expertise in  telling half the story to suit your own distorted view of a situation. As far as any disparaging remarks, I simply related what I was told directly by several people. This is neither my opinion nor rumor or unsubstantiated information. During the basketball season I attend a HS game just about every Tuesday and Friday night. I talk directly with many HS and college coaches as well as parents at those games. During last season, I had 2 coaches and a parent all tell me the same thing about the kid in question that being that while he is a very good basketball player, he historically does his own thing, and that any school accepting him would basically have to assign a staff member to monitor him on a full time basis to keep him on the proper path and out of trouble both academically and behaviorally. Rather than hearsay, this is factual reporting of face to face conversations with adults familiar with his daily activities and history.
Even more repugnant is your conveniently leaving out the fact that rather than making only "disparaging remarks" in my post #19802 on 7/29/09 as you allege, I pointed out that:

"Raul's skill on the court actually began to stand out to stand out during his soph season at Cicero Morton. It became more apparent 2 yrs ago in then his junior year, and came to the forefront last season when he was named West Suburban Conference Gold Division POY. He really stepped up when All-Sate teammate Luke Scarlata went down with an appendectomy and missed 8 or 10 games. Raul lacks quickness, but has good footwork and is tough inside. He can also step outside and reliably hit the 3, converting 37% from beyond the arc last season. Additionally, he is an adept passer for a big man, dishing out almost 4 apg. His basketball shortcomings are primarily related to his lack of quickness--he doesn't run the floor well, and a large percentage of his rebounds were obtained as a result of the ball bouncing directly to him off the rim/board as he lacks lateral quickness to move to the ball. This also makes him a defensive liability particularly in man coverage."

And "Of course, this is not to say kids don't mature or that any particular coaching staff cannot effectively prevent or manage any disruptive situations that may arise.
Much luck to Mr. Guzman at CC."

I think there are at least a few remarks in there that most people wouldn't classify as "disparaging." Also, I think most people familiar with his play would agree that the "negative" remarks are a very accurate description of his game.

Lastly, your comment about "young men who have not chosen to go the Naperville route" is laughably absurd, especially considering the fact he was not recruited by the "Naperville school" as he couldn't qualify academically. Accordingly, there was no choice involved. 
   


   

We are going to have to agree to disagree because the wide range between our opinions could fill several pages!  Good Luck this year

[CCIWFAN3]

I can't wait till the season starts cause these conversations are really getting boring:)

[usee]

And I am a legit 6-3. 

6-9 with an Afro!

[CCIWFAN3]

Hurry up season...start!
 
       

[augiefan]

Dansand, what is the injury status of Terrence Green and the two other sidelined Augie big men? Hopefully, the team will be close to full strength for Wash U. Also does Pete Wessels look like he is anything like his brothers in the talent department, and if so will he get significant playing time this years as a soph?

[Gregory Sager]

I can't wait till the season starts cause these conversations are really getting boring:)

It's not an enforced rule, FAN3, but d3boards.com etiquette is that you're not allowed to complain about the content of current conversations unless you're willing to start a new one. Therefore, either please refrain from telling us that our conversations are boring or begin a new topic.

Took in the scrimmage in the city last night between North Central and a much taller and "beefier" U of Chicago team.
Rather than resetting the score at the end of the 1st half as usual in a scrimmage, the 1st half score remained on the board.

Darned if I can find it in the rulebook, but, having worked at the scorer's table for several years for both the NPU men and the NPU women, I can tell you that officials from both sports have repeatedly insisted that NCAA rules require that the score be reset at the end of each half in a scrimmage.

I don't know anything about what happened in the recruitment of Kameron Norton, but it doesn't make sense to me for a kid to intentionally "play" schools

I'm completely agnostic on the subject of what Kameron Norton said and to whom, but what I do know is that I'd be wary of calling out the grandson of the heavyweight champion of the world.