MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[usee]

Ever since last season ended I've been harping on the theme that the CCIW's class of '10 is the weakest senior class I think I've ever seen in my thirty years of following this league. Now that the non-conference slate is complete, I'm even more convinced of that. Look at this year's seniors and tell me who looks like a potential All-American. Nick Williams? He's NPU's mainstay and one of the two or three most talented players in this league, but he scored 16 points total in North Park's first three games and was very ordinary in the overtime loss to UW-Superior. Reid Barringer? He followed up his 44-point performance against Rockford with a mere five points against Adrian. Ben Panner? He's probably the most well-rounded senior in the league, but he's not going to carry Wheaton on his shoulders the way that Kent Raymond could (and did). Matt Pelton? Very solid player at both ends of the floor, but not a superstar. Dustin Bainter and Chris Childs? They're good, but not dominant -- and Elmhurst is increasingly becoming Zach Boyd's team, anyway. And all of those Millikin seniors are offensively challenged.

We may be looking at a season that doesn't have more than three or four seniors on the All-CCIW team. I haven't looked up what the all-time-low is for senior inclusion on the All-CCIW team, but it's gotta be higher than three or four.

You take seniors out of the equation, and your capacity to win regularly is diminished. I knew that there'd be a dropoff in November and December this year as far back as last March, although I admit that I didn't think that the dropoff would be this sharp. There's your answer right there as to why the league is so weak at the moment. One more thing, though: While the junior class is better than the senior class -- it almost has to be, when you think about it -- the real strength of the league this year, I think, is in its sophomore class. I'm not much for predicting but, based upon what I've seen, the CCIW will do much better in 2010-11 in non-conference play than it did this year -- and the 2011-12 performance of the CCIW in November and December could turn out to be absolutely spectacular.

Having said all that, I think that Bob's right on the money when he says this:

I should add that I won't be surprised if 1 or 2 CCIW teams end up being very dangerous come NCAA tournament time.  In no way am I writing this season off as a year where the CCIW rep(s) will go down in Round 1.  There are some very talented teams trying to put it all together, and you never know how that's going to turn out.

Iron sharpens iron, and two months' worth of CCIW games could leave us with a team in March that, seniors or no seniors, has tested veterans whose talent, savvy, and ability to perform under pressure makes up for the lack of senior leadership.

While I agree with your underlying point here Greg, I will point out there were alot of players named All-American last year that couldn't carry their team on their shoulders the way Kent Raymond did. 

[Gregory Sager]

As any politician would tell you (off the record, of course), the key to debate is answering the question that you want to answer, not the question that you were asked. Seriously, though, I did have a first team among my top twenty-five. Why would that not qualify as an answer to your question?

As any good marketer would tell you "alway keep them wanting more". Listing 5 teams answers most questions (asked and not asked) and limits the debate.

I don't see how. In fact, it appears to me that it would stimulate debate by putting more names out there for people to discuss.

While I agree with your underlying point here Greg, I will point out there were alot of players named All-American last year that couldn't carry their team on their shoulders the way Kent Raymond did. 

That's a good point.

[petemcb]

Congrats to Jordan Zimmer on the Player of the Week nod...

http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_m/pow09_6.php

Stay hot, kid.

I haven't seen the vote totals.  Did he just nose out Carwell?   

[Gregory Sager]

Even without considering his getting nosed out for the POTY award, I'm sure that this past week was one that Jake Carwell would just as soon forget.

[usee]

As any politician would tell you (off the record, of course), the key to debate is answering the question that you want to answer, not the question that you were asked. Seriously, though, I did have a first team among my top twenty-five. Why would that not qualify as an answer to your question?

As any good marketer would tell you "alway keep them wanting more". Listing 5 teams answers most questions (asked and not asked) and limits the debate.

I don't see how. In fact, it appears to me that it would stimulate debate by putting more names out there for people to discuss.

Check the pudding.

[Gregory Sager]

As any politician would tell you (off the record, of course), the key to debate is answering the question that you want to answer, not the question that you were asked. Seriously, though, I did have a first team among my top twenty-five. Why would that not qualify as an answer to your question?

As any good marketer would tell you "alway keep them wanting more". Listing 5 teams answers most questions (asked and not asked) and limits the debate.

I don't see how. In fact, it appears to me that it would stimulate debate by putting more names out there for people to discuss.

Check the pudding.

That doesn't mean that it stifled debate, though, which appears to be your point. I just don't see the logic behind the implication that listing five teams (or three of them, in Bob's case) rather than one is a detriment to discussion.

The three most likely explanations as to why the only respondent is NPC-Alum are: The readership of CCIW Chat doesn't care about the topic; doesn't have a dispute with either my selections or Bob's; or (in cases such as AndOne) hasn't followed the league long enough to comment upon the merits of the decade's worth of selections. By your own admission, your All-Oughts team in the CCIW football room drew no commentary (Lakeshore was the only person to debate any of your selections), so what makes you think that the basketball room would be any different? Plus, I've noticed in the dozen years that this room has been around that it can be very difficult to get historical discussions going while the season is in progress; most fans tend to be focused upon what's going on in the season that's underway, and some even get irritated if you bring up historical stuff in-season (paging Rodney Knuppel, paging Rodney Knuppel ). I seriously doubt that listing more than one team has anything to do with the room's silence on the matter of the All-Oughts team.

[OurHouse]

Congrats to Jordan Zimmer on the Player of the Week nod...

http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_m/pow09_6.php

Stay hot, kid.

I haven't seen the vote totals.  Did he just nose out Carwell?   

....no offense to Zimmer but when you play teams that are virtually below varsity high school talent, a set shooter like Zimmer will increase his scoring opportunities. It is obvious the teams they played where clueless on how to defend - great shooting by this player however

MMW

[usee]

GS- since no one engaged in debate for either your method or mine, and no one is engaging in debate in gerneral (except you and I of course) then all your/my hypothesis are mere speculation. In short, my way rules and your way drools!

[cardinalpride]

Hey Q, Sager, et al--

How about a CCIW all decade team for basketball? There has to be some tough choices if you were only going to pick a starting 5 and a 6th man (non starter).

Using the d3hoops.com All-American method:

First Team
G Antoine McDaniel, Carthage '03
G Kent Raymond, Wheaton '09
F Chris Martin, Elmhurst '06
F Jason Wiertel, Carthage '02
C Joel Kolmodin, Wheaton '05

Second Team
G Adam Dauksas, Illinois Wesleyan '06
G Drew Carstens, Augustana '04
F Keelan Amelianovich, Illinois Wesleyan '06
F Rob Garnes, Carthage '03
C Brent Ruch, Elmhurst '09

Third Team
G Ryan Knuppel, Elmhurst '01
G Steve Djurickovic, Carthage '11
F Anthony Simmons, North Central '07
F Luke Kasten, Illinois Wesleyan '03
C Zach Freeman, Illinois Wesleyan '07

Fourth Team
G Drew Wessels, Augustana '07
G Rick Harrigan, Augustana '06
F Dan Walton, North Central '07
F Chris Drennan, North Central '09
C Lukas Moo, Wheaton '01

Fifth Team
G Jon Nielson, Wheaton '05
G Ryan Burks, Elmhurst '09
F Jay McAdams-Thornton, Augustana '06
F Shaun Clements, Augustana '04
C Theo Powell, Carthage '04

Player of the Decade: Kent Raymond, Wheaton '09
Coach of the Decade: Grey Giovanine, Augustana

Well done Mr. Sager,

Your first team is right on in my opinion!  As far as sixth man, I would have to go with Rob Garnes (CCIW 1st team every year) and he could sub for anyone on that front line!  My POD-Kent Raymond...Probably the only position on the all decade team that's a lock!

[Mugsy]

As any politician would tell you (off the record, of course), the key to debate is answering the question that you want to answer, not the question that you were asked. Seriously, though, I did have a first team among my top twenty-five. Why would that not qualify as an answer to your question?

As any good marketer would tell you "alway keep them wanting more". Listing 5 teams answers most questions (asked and not asked) and limits the debate.

I don't see how. In fact, it appears to me that it would stimulate debate by putting more names out there for people to discuss.

Check the pudding.

That doesn't mean that it stifled debate, though, which appears to be your point. I just don't see the logic behind the implication that listing five teams (or three of them, in Bob's case) rather than one is a detriment to discussion.

The three most likely explanations as to why the only respondent is NPC-Alum are: The readership of CCIW Chat doesn't care about the topic; doesn't have a dispute with either my selections or Bob's; or (in cases such as AndOne) hasn't followed the league long enough to comment upon the merits of the decade's worth of selections. By your own admission, your All-Oughts team in the CCIW football room drew no commentary (Lakeshore was the only person to debate any of your selections), so what makes you think that the basketball room would be any different? Plus, I've noticed in the dozen years that this room has been around that it can be very difficult to get historical discussions going while the season is in progress; most fans tend to be focused upon what's going on in the season that's underway, and some even get irritated if you bring up historical stuff in-season (paging Rodney Knuppel, paging Rodney Knuppel ). I seriously doubt that listing more than one team has anything to do with the room's silence on the matter of the All-Oughts team.

I've been planning to respond to the CCIW football All-Decade team, but haven't had a free moment to repond intelligently.

[Gregory Sager]

GS- since no one engaged in debate for either your method or mine, and no one is engaging in debate in gerneral (except you and I of course) then all your/my hypothesis are mere speculation. In short, my way rules and your way drools!

I'm rubber, you're glue, etc., etc.

I've been planning to respond to the CCIW football All-Decade team, but haven't had a free moment to repond intelligently.

You would never leave yourself open with such an obvious straight line if Cardinal Alum ever checked the basketball room.

[robberki]

I was also going to respond to Greg's all-decade team because I notice one aggregious omission, but haven't had a chance to do so.

Incidentally, thanks to Greg for carrying the broadcast the other night. Just so folks know as it's no secret, I will be in most of the remaining broadcasts for North Park but will miss a few as my father was diagnosed with a brain tumor about two weeks ago. Not the Christmas gift that we were all expecting but something we're dealing with the best we can. I will be travelling to Nebraska several times this spring to help my family out with things so I will unfortunately miss some of the games.

[AndOne]

Robb--

Best wishes for your dad. I spent 5 years in NE and know there are lots of good and skilled people there who, combined with your family's love, will help provide the care and support he and the rest of your family need.

[usee]

New poll has Wheaton down to #14, IWU reappears at #25. Augie and Carthage ORV status.

[AndOne]

New poll has Wheaton down to #14, IWU reappears at #25. Augie and Carthage ORV status.

If I remember correctly, this seems more in line with the tone of what several posters were forecasting prior to the season starting.