MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[usee]

I agree with Q. The coaches meeting is usually the Tuesday after the regular season to determin All Conference selections.

Viking Mike- Apologies on the name blunder. I had frozen custerd on my mind!

[Titan Q]

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/article_3b686a46-1934-11df-affc-001cc4c03286.html


"That was a fortuitous shot," admitted Thunder coach Mike Schauer. "My theology does not believe in luck, but that pushes the outer edge of my theology."
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"They played better than we did," IWU coach Ron Rose said. "They played great defense. But I was surprised their pressure gave us that much problem. We were not stubborn enough to run enough offense."
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"Our offense has been tough (to come by) all year," said Schauer, whose team shot 36 percent from the field. "The only way we can win is to lock down and make the game ugly. The guys have bought into that."

[AndOne]

I think the All Conference selections are going to very tough when talking about the final spot(s) on the 1st team. I think Ben Panner has made a very strong case to be included. He carried this Wheaton team to consecutive road wins this week @Augie and @IWU. His defense on Sean Johnson and offensive firepower were the difference tonight and he hit huge free throws at the Culver center. I don't envy the coaches in their voting but if BP isn't one of the 5 best players in the conference this year I don't know who is.

Thats a very easy question to answer.
Of the players mentioned here recently that might merit consideration for 1st team all conference, if someone was considering voting for Panner (an all conference player for sure), I'd suggest that DAVID TWYMAN  of NCC might be more worthy of a 1st place vote. For documentation of that theory, I submit the following statistical items from CCIW conference play into evidence:

Scoring--Twyman is 4th, Panner 6th
Rebounding--Twyman is 4th, Panner is not in the top 20 (Both players are 6'3")
Off. rebounding--Twyman is 3rd, Panner is not in the top 15
Def. rebounding--Twyman is tied for 7th, Panner is not in the top 15
FG percentage--Twyman is 7th, Panner is not in the top 15
Assists--Twyman is 8th, Panner is not in the top 15
Steals--Twyman is tied for 4th, Panner is not in the top 19
FT percentage--Twyman is not in the top 15, Panner is 3rd
3 pt FG percentage--Twyman is not in the top 15, Panner is 2nd
3 pointers made--Twyman not in the top 15, Panner is 2nd

Twyman leads in 7 of the above 10 categories. He is a more complete player, excelling in more areas on both ends of the floor.
Ben Panner is one of the best players in the CCIW, but his excellence is primarily confined to 3 point shooting and scoring.
David Twyman scores well, but just not by means of 3 point shots. He also rebounds on both ends of the floor, assists his teammates, and plays much better defense on a consistent basis. He is arguably the most athletic player in the conference and, while no stats are kept on this, probably leads the conference in dunks from what I have witnessed.

In summary, Ben Panner is an all conference player. However, whether he makes the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all conference squad, he does not deserve more votes than David Twyman. If he gets them, it will only be a function of Wheaton's finishing above North Central in the conference standings.

[usee]

AO-

If statistics were the only measure of 1st team all conference you may well have an argument. This is no knock on David Twyman because in the few times I have watched him play I thought he was an outstanding player and he may well get voted to the 1st team. I also don't know who the coaches will pick and as I have mentioned there are several worthy candidates. But Panner is the best defensive player on the best defensive team in the conference. He also just shut down Sean Johnson who is a very accomplished scorer in this league. In addition he led his team to 2 road victories this week in 2 of the toughest places to play in D3. He has a complete game and operates within his team's structure as well as anyone.  To say his election to 1st team would only be a product of his team's finish and to further state he is merely a 3pt shooter is just plain ignorant.

[usee]

And if you think there is any additional value in dunks then Dennie Bridges has a good book for you to read.

[CCgrad2004]

Unable to attend the Carthage game Saturday, what was the dedication ceremony like before the game? 

[bigz61550]

Wheaton 65
IWU 59

A great defensive performance by Wheaton tonight.  The Thunder just took IWU out of everything they want to do offensively.  While Wheaton controlled the entire game, IWU was right in with about 2:00 to play.  The Titans had the lead down to 2 and played good defense on the other end.  At the shotclock buzzer, Jake Carwell banked in a 3 that pushed the Wheaton lead back to 5...it was Carwell's first 3 of the season (and I wonder possibly in his career?).  That was the dagger.

Ben Panner was terrific tonight for Wheaton.  He had a stretch about midway through the 2nd half where he carried Wheaton offensively.

Wheaton held Sean Johnson scoreless.  That kind of says it all.  The Thunder defense also neutralized Doug Sexauer for most of the game.

What a big loss for the Titans.  They go from tied for 1st to scrapping for a 2 or 3 seed with two tough road games to play.

Wheaton goes to Augustana and to IWU in back-to-back games and comes away with two wins...very impressive.

I was at this game last night.  Wheaton really seems to have gotten their defense plying at a high level compared to early in the season.  They really worked hard to front Sexauer the whole game.  Later in the game, IWU moved him to a high post and even outside to try and free him up.  It looked like the high post might work, but they abandoned that quickly. 

Wheaton seemed to be trying to get their offense beyond just taking McCrary inside, but Panner was the only other one who was really shooting very well.  Very intense game with Wheaton leading most of the way, but IWU kept coming back until Carwell threw up that three point desperation shot just before the shot clock went off. 

[Titan Q]

Ben Panner is one of the best players in the CCIW, but his excellence is primarily confined to 3 point shooting and scoring.

I disagree with this.  (I'll admit I have only seen Wheaton play via video stream this season...but I have seen the Thunder play via video 7 or 8 times now.)  I think Ben Panner is clearly one of the best perimeter defenders in the CCIW.  His defensive effort last night vs IWU was game-changing.  He held a player who came in averaging 16 ppg in conference play scoreless.

He's also a great leader.  I have no way to quantify that, but I think anyone who has watched Wheaton play this year would agree.

Panner is a complete player who any CCIW coach would absolutely love to have.  It wouldn't be any slight to David Twyman or Kyle Nelson if Ben Panner ends up on that 1st Team.

[AndOne]

Usee--

1. I acknowledged that Ben is an outstanding player.
2. I know stats aren't the only measure of all-conference status
3. Any possibility Johnson's going scoreless was a product of anything other than Panner's defense? An off night? Illness?
4. I think stats DO mean something and that David Twyman is a slightly better overall player.
5. There may not be any additional value in a dunk other than the 2 points one counts for. I mentioned them only as evidence of Twyman's quickness, explosiveness, and overall athleticism. Some of the characteristics of an  all-conference player.
6. If you think all conference selection isn't at least partially affected by where your team finishes then your eyes aren't fully opened. This is a historical fact. If you don't believe me, ask Titan Q or Greg Sager or anyone else who has been on here for a while and is very familiar with the conference.
7. You come on here acting like like you have all the answers, but you can't express them without resorting to name calling. I don't think you'll find me calling YOU ignorant. I thought the whole purpose of D3Hoops was to express ideas and exchange information about D3 basketball in general and the CCIW in particular here.
Sure, there is going to be some boosting of the team you root for. The problem is that if someone criticizes a Wheaton player or team in the slightest fashion that doesn't suggest that they are almost able to walk on water, you get bent out of shape enough to call them "ignorant." Well, for your information, I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are. The stats I referenced are, at least, partial documentation that my position has merit, and is not just based on personal opinion such as is one of your primary methods of operation. You know you can get away with it because there are other posters on here that root for the same team and will support you as opposed to my basically being the only poster for the team I follow.
8. Having said that, I won't be at all surprised that Panner receives more all-conference votes that Twyman even if they maintain their current standings in the statistical areas I mentioned over the last 2 games. Why? Primarily because Panner is a scorer (which i think still carries the most weight in the voting) and because Wheaton will finish above NCC--even though they did split the season series.
Ben Panner is an outstanding all-conference player who anyone would love to have on their team. I just don't think he merits more votes that David Twyman.

I'm just trying to promote my player as you are and should be yours. The difference is I am able to do it without calling you "ignorant.," You glaringly demonstrate the very behavior you criticize in others. Maybe not ignorant, but highly hypocritical.

**Anyone else reading this who isn't one of Usee's buddies agree/disagree with using language such as "ignorant" to describe another poster who took another position and gave supporting documentation of his position?

[kenoshamark]

AndOne,

Here is a little different spin on this discussion.   I wasn't at the game last night nor have I seen Raridon play this year so I only can go off of what has been written.   Is it possible that maybe Twyman deserves the first team spot over Raridon?   I looked over the ten categories you used for comparison and this is split evenly at five each.   

I don't really care who makes the final spot on the first team but I do agree wholeheartedly that where one ends in the standings does play into the voting.   With that said, NC will only have one player but could it be Twyman?   I guess that is really the question I'm posing to you?

[Titan Q]

**Anyone else reading this who isn't one of Usee's buddies agree/disagree with using language such as "ignorant" to describe another poster who took another position and gave supporting documentation of his position?

Mark, quite often you make these types of extremely opinionated and controversial statements...

In summary, Ben Panner is an all conference player. However, whether he makes the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team all conference squad, he does not deserve more votes than David Twyman. If he gets them, it will only be a function of Wheaton's finishing above North Central in the conference standings.

...and then you get upset when someone has a strong reaction to it.

I have no problem with whatever opinion you choose to post here...yes, that is what a message board is all about.  But don't be so surprised when you end up pushing someone's buttons and draw a negative reaction.   

[CCIWFAN3]

I tend to agree with Kenoshamark....Twyman is a top candidate for 1st team ...but not in place of Panner...but in place Rairdon's.  A team's place in conference play will always be a deciding factor.  Finishing 6th out of 8th will not get 2 players on 1st team in any conference, at any level.

[izzy stradlin]

6. If you think all conference selection isn't at least partially affected by where your team finishes then your eyes aren't fully opened. This is a historical fact. If you don't believe me, ask Titan Q or Greg Sager or anyone else who has been on here for a while and is very familiar with the conference.

You are correct here, but this is the way it should be.   The best evaluation of an individual player to me is the number of wins he is able to get for his team.  NCC has won 4 of 12 (33%) of their CCIW.  That is simply not good.  Wheaton is 8-4 because of their defense.  Ben Panner is one of Wheaton's top two players and their best perimeter on-the-ball defender.   Obviously teammates matter in getting wins, but as has been mentioned many times on this board, Wheaton is extremely thin this year.  

A few years back, Keelan Amelianovich from a 12-2 Titan team was chosen over Joel Kolmodin from a 10-4 Thunder team for MOP when Kolmodin had a statistically better year.  My biased pick probably would have been Joel, but I had no problem with Keelan getting the award.  Chris Martin probably could've won multiple MOPs based on stats.  

Individual stats have too many confounders when relied upon for comparison of players.  A good supporting cast can impact a players stats positively or negatively.   The pace at which a team plays or overall poor defense can lead to more possessions per game and inflated per-game averages,  etc, etc.  Winning is the best tool we have to find the best players.

[izzy stradlin]

I do like Twyman as a player, and based on the two times I have seen NCC play, I would take him on my team before Raridon because of the impact he has on both sides of the floor.

[usee]

AndOne-

I think you are a bit too sensitive. I don't see anywhere I called you anything. I thought what you said was ignorant. I didn't say you were ignorant. To the contrary you have posted many well thought out ideas and demonstrate a keen knowledge of basketball. I have said many ignorant things on here (perhaps even now ) so I have a pretty good idea what that looks like. You obviously think I have some emotional response to all things anti-Wheaton. I would strongly disagree with that and say you haven't read many of my posts if that's what you think. I think you and I bleed our schools colors which is expected. The difference I see between us (and its my perspective so I am open to it being wrong) is that I don't often see you give credit to others (particularly after a loss) and I usually try my best to recognize the other team, which is sometimes very hard for me. The best guys on here at that are Q and Sager. They clearly love their teams but they have conistently recognized other teams and players, and not just CCIW players. I have tried to model my posts more like theirs over the years (from a perspective basis) but I have a ways to go. I also don't think its fair to say you do so because you are the only poster from your school.  

On to basktball. I never said I don't think the top teams get the most players on the All Conf squad. I think they absolutely do. I also agree with most of your original post and I wouldn't be surprised (in fact I am hopeful) that a player like David Twyman gets recognized for his efforts. What I strongly reacted to was the notion that "the ONLY reason.." BP would be 1st team over Twyman was because of conference standings as well as the idea that "Panner is just a 3pt shooter". Those are not well informed comments and are simply not true. Panner MAY get 1st team because as a player he deserves to get it.  those were the only parts of your post I reacted to.  I disagree with the "Twyman is a consistently better defender than Panner" but that's my vs your opinion and that's what this is about. My contention is that Panner is the best defender on the best defensive team and while Twyman may be as good as Panner I wouldn't consent that he is better.

The rest is your opinion and I'm glad you share it. I hope my opinion and reaction to your's doesn't dissuade you. It hasn't affected me and believe me I have said some really stupid stuff over the years.