MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

Carthage disemboweled Silver Lake this evening, 86-55. The Red Men were up by 39 with just under seven minutes left before Bosko emptied his bench; fifteen Red Men ended up playing in this game.

File this one under: "Useless Exercise".

Oh ye of little faith, look for the positives.  Yes, Silver Lake isn't good, but their center Zak Zablocki was pretty good and Carthage a) contained him and b) won the battle of the boards 54-38 which was nice to see.  Raul Guzman played almost 10 minutes before fouling someone (that's good) because they'll need him to back up Thompson and Pierce.  I like the effort out of Marlon Senior, who could cause mismatches with his power forward size and small forward skills.  And there was good defensive hustle out of the freshman that got time tonight.

It's not simply a useless exercise because Silver Lake isn't good. Silver Lake isn't a D3 team; therefore, it's a waste of one of Carthage's 11 non-conference opportunities, because it won't count in the eyes of the selection committee if the Red Men need a Pool C berth on Selection Sunday. If you're Bosko Djurickovic and you just want to grab an easy win in the midst of your non-con schedule, pick up the phone and give a call to the coach of Maranatha Baptist, or call the coach of Marian or the coach of Rockford. Those are below-par opponents who are not only relatively close to the Carthage campus, they also give you an easy W that counts towards your in-region winning percentage on Selection Sunday.

Only schedule a game against a non-region D3 team or a team that isn't D3 at all when it can help your team. Hope and Calvin are perennially tough opponents, so it behooves Carthage to keep playing them every year in the CCIW/MIAA Classic. Playing a tough NAIA opponent can help strengthen your team, too (Cardinal Stritch certainly qualified as a tough NAIA opponent last season, but this season -- in which Carthage is schedueld to play the Wolves -- it's perhaps less true). And, of course, playing a D1 or D2 school is a no-brainer, because you not only step up in class in terms of opponent strength (usually), you also get a payout under NCAA rules.

Silver Lake College is a poor opponent, so playing SLC doesn't help the Red Men in terms of making them stronger. And Silver Lake is not an in-region D3 opponent, so playing SLC doesn't help the Red Men in terms of their in-region record. Bob's spoken several times now in this room about how Carthage put itself on thin ice in terms of Pool C potential by only scheduling four of its 11 non-conference games against in-region opponents. I remember thinking the same thing last summer when I first saw Carthage's 2010-11 schedule. Everybody knows that I take a backseat to no one in my respect for Bosko, but unfortunately he tends to have a rather cavalier attitude towards scheduling -- and this year it might come back to bite the Red Men in the butt.

Ok, I was talking about the game and the progress I saw in the some of the Redman.  I don't completely understand the NCAA selection rules for D3 (mostly because they don't seem to make sense; Carthage vs. Whitworth playing in Hawaii is in region but Carthage vs. Hope isn't?), but you also seem to contridict yourself.  Why is playing Carthage playing out of region games D3 games or playing an NAIA (or NCAA 1 or 2) ok, but playing Silver Lake isn't?

Oh, and if anyone can point me to a good FAQ for D3 basketball selection, that'd be awfully useful.

Greg was saying that IF the game is not going to count for in-region stats, make sure it IS a game that helps the team (i.e., against a similar or better quality team).  A non-regional cupcake is a wasted opportunity for EITHER learning or resume-building.

That the way regional games is defined is arbitrary, capricious, and often insane has been a perennial gripe of many posters!

FAQ is accessed from the front page (I believe under 'News').

[Gregory Sager]

Ok, I was talking about the game and the progress I saw in the some of the Redman.  I don't completely understand the NCAA selection rules for D3 (mostly because they don't seem to make sense; Carthage vs. Whitworth playing in Hawaii is in region but Carthage vs. Hope isn't?), but you also seem to contridict yourself.  Why is playing Carthage playing out of region games D3 games or playing an NAIA (or NCAA 1 or 2) ok, but playing Silver Lake isn't?

Yes, the criteria that determine what is in-region and what isn't are a bit wacky. We've talked about that a lot in this room, and your example of Whitworth and Hope vis-a-vis Carthage is an excellent example of that wackiness.

In-region status is determined by four things:

1) Membership in the same conference;
2) Membership in the same competition region (the CCIW is in the Midwest Region);
3) Opponent is within 200 miles (as determined by Microsoft Maps & Trips software) of your campus address; and
4) Membership in the same NCAA administrative region (the entire western two-thirds of the country, including Illinois and Wisconsin, is in NCAA Administrative Region 4. The state of Michigan, unfortunately, is in NCAA Administrative Region 3.

As for me contradicting myself, I think you may have missed that I'm making two separate points. There are two good reasons, and two reasons only, to schedule a non-region game: Strength of competition, and money. In other words, will playing this non-region team push your players and make them work harder and (one would hope) improve both your team and your individual players? If so, then go ahead and play that team, even though it won't count in the eyes of the D3 selection committee. The second reason, money, only comes into play when a D3 team plays a D1 or D2 team, since NCAA rules require the scholarship-level NCAA team to give a payout to the D3 team (it requires the same thing of a D1 team if it hosts a D2 team). That one pretty much falls under the first criterion, anyway, since if you're playing a D1 or D2 team it's almost invariably going to be a tough game for your D3 team.

So, in other words, if you're Carthage, go ahead and schedule a Hope or a Calvin or a St. Xavier or a UW-Parkside, since those games will help your team even though they don't count on Selection Sunday. But a game against Calumet St. Joe or Silver Lake? Forget it. Not only does it not count, it doesn't help your team get better. It's an empty win. If you really want to add a cupcake to your schedule for appearance's sake, schedule a cupcake that adds to your in-region record, a la Rockford or Maranatha Baptist.

Oh, and if anyone can point me to a good FAQ for D3 basketball selection, that'd be awfully useful.

Here's the link to the current edition of the NCAA Division III Men's Basketball Championship Handbook. The pertinent section concerning the selection process starts on page 12.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/champ_handbooks/basketball/2011/11_3_mbasketball.pdf

[bopol]

Ok, I get your point now.  Yes, I couldn't follow that you were making two seperate points. 

That said, I'm not sure that I agree with you. 

1) I saw some improvement in Carthage's play against Silver Lake.  SL has a reasonably good center and Carthage's main big guys handled him well and won the battle of the boards.  There was also a lack of letdown that I saw in other games which allowed teams to get back into the game (including the home loss to John Carroll).  The fact that Carthage hustled for 32 minutes and kept extending the lead was good, even if Silver Lake wasn't a particularly good team.  Developing a "we got them down, let's finish this" mentality will serve them well in conference play.

2) The number 1 criteria is in region and the number 2 is SOS.  I know from D1 that the RPI of teams (1/4 winning percentage and 3/4 SOS) will go down when a strong team beats a weak team.  So, yes, playing a weak in-region D3 team will get the in-region win, but cost on SOS. 

That said, it looks as the selection is every bit as weird as Division 1, so I wonder if a single in-region game matters.  As a fan of some mid-major division 1 clubs, it seems like the committee will find a reason to keep a midmajor club out, no matter what RPI will tell them. 

[Gregory Sager]

Ok, I get your point now.  Yes, I couldn't follow that you were making two seperate points.  

That said, I'm not sure that I agree with you.  

1) I saw some improvement in Carthage's play against Silver Lake.  SL has a reasonably good center and Carthage's main big guys handled him well and won the battle of the boards.  There was also a lack of letdown that I saw in other games which allowed teams to get back into the game (including the home loss to John Carroll).  The fact that Carthage hustled for 32 minutes and kept extending the lead was good, even if Silver Lake wasn't a particularly good team.  Developing a "we got them down, let's finish this" mentality will serve them well in conference play.

Yes, but Carthage would've been much better served to have played a better overall team, rather than a bad team that has a decent center. There are other centers out there who could've presented the Red Men with a challenge whose teams as a whole would've been much better tests. Realistically, Silver Lake is so bad as a team that Carthage would've had to completely fall on its face for the contest to be even halfway competitive. The same holds true for playing Calumet St. Joe, a historically unimpressive NAIA program which is 3-9 this season and has lost nine straight.

2) The number 1 criteria is in region and the number 2 is SOS.  I know from D1 that the RPI of teams (1/4 winning percentage and 3/4 SOS) will go down when a strong team beats a weak team.  So, yes, playing a weak in-region D3 team will get the in-region win, but cost on SOS.

Strength of schedule only applies to in-region games in D3's selection process. You're right that a win over an in-region cupcake such as Maranatha Baptist would cause Carthage's OWP to decline, which seems to make it a tradeoff: In-region winning percentage (one of the five primary criteria used by the selection committee) improves, while in-region SOS (another one of the five primary criteria) declines. However, it's generally accepted by those who follow the selection process carefully that in-region winning percentage seems to be the first-among-equals criterion in the eyes of the committee. More importantly, because Carthage plays so few in-region games -- which gets back to the point I made earlier, and that Bob's been making over the past two months, about Carthage's poor scheduling -- every in-region game assumes that much more magnitude in terms of the in-region winning percentage. If you're Augustana (10 of 11 non-con games will be in-region) or Illinois Wesleyan (either 8 or 9 of 11 non-con games will be in-region, depending upon a holiday tourney matchup), you have more of a safety margin, because each non-con in-region game is either 1/24th of your total (Augie) or 1/22nd or 1/23rd of your total (IWU). (This does not include CCIW tourney games, which also count as in-region games.) But if you're Carthage, because you only have four non-con in-region games scheduled, that loss to Whitworth counts for 1/18th of your in-region winning percentage. Thus, an extra win against an in-region cupcake, rather than playing a useless game against Silver Lake or CCSJ, would give you more of a cushion in a key primary criterion on Selection Sunday.

[bopol]

I'm wondering if Bosko has explained the schedule anywhere and why there are so few in-region games.  Maybe he has his reasons.

Now, that I am picking up more, I'll be interested in following the selection committee and see how things work out.  I can pretty much peg what will happen in D1, but I don't care for the process and the results that much.  D3 will be interesting.

Thanks for explaining your thoughts on this.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm wondering if Bosko has explained the schedule anywhere and why there are so few in-region games.  Maybe he has his reasons.

He doesn't. Trust me on this one.

Thanks for explaining your thoughts on this.

No problem!

[Gregory Sager]

Final from the QC:

Augustana 80
St. Ambrose 73

Sounded like an ugly one. Augie turned the ball over 21 times, SAU turned it over 19 times. Augie blew about half of what had been a late twenty-point lead, and the final two minutes were an interminable foulfest on the part of the visiting Bees.

Augie's two big guns, Kyle Nelson and Chris Anderson, went a combined 3-13 from the field, and Nelson fouled out, to boot. But Augie got a nice effort from Bryant Voiles (18 pts), a surprisingly strong scoring night from Brian DeSimone (16 pts), 12 points from Anderson (nine of them from the FT line, almost all of them in the aforementioned foulfest at the game's conclusion), and 11 from Troy Rorer.

[augiefan]

The QC rivalry games between the Vikings and the Bees are seldom pretty. It sounds like the refs may have overdone it a bit as this game was a foul fest from the get go. An ugly win is still a win, and the Bees are a pretty strong NAIA team, so a good win for Augie

[augiefan]

Augie's Ft success in the first couple of games must have been done with mirrors. Augie's FT% was barely above 60% tonight. Unless there is a dramatic improvement, this weakness is going to be the Vikings downfall in close games. All of the big guys are challenged at the FT line, but the Vikings worst fear is having Troy Rorer shooting FTs with the game on the line. Troy was 4-10 tonight.

On the other hand a real positive was seeing the team win against a tough opponent on an off night for Kyle Nelson. Voiles filled the void nicely.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I agree that was a good win for Augie (especially for those of us picking a sweep for the CCIW this week ).  That was the single game I most worried about in my picks.

Now if Elmhurst can beat Loras (highly regarded pre-season, but looking terrible), I think us 'sweep' pickers are home free!

[dansand]

I would agree. A nice win for Augie last night. Ambrose is very solid. Augie did a great job on their big guns, Mike Kennedy (21 ppg) and Justin Tiner (15 ppg). They had 11 and 10 (mostly late when Augie already had a good-sized lead) and were a combined 8 of 25 from the field. Joe Speth, a senior who came in averaging 2.7 ppg, had 18 (14 in the second half!), though.

With Nelson held in check, it was really encouraging to see Voiles and DeSimone pick up the offensive slack. Anderson was pretty quiet for most the game, but didn't force anything and did a nice job knocking down FT's during the hack-fest.  Despite his FT troubles, Rorer had a nice all-around game (which is why Coach G keeps him on the floor). Kameron Norton looked very good too.

Turnovers and FT shooting continue to be the questions for this team, but they've managed them so far. I would've like to see them finish Ambrose off the way they did Wash U. but the outcome was never really in doubt (SAU never had the ball with the score closer than 7 points in the last 17 minutes) and I'm happy with a seven-point win over a ranked opponent in a rivalry game.

All of the big guys are challenged at the FT line

Augie's big guys are a combined 49 of 67 (.731) at the line this year.

[Denny McKinney]

I posted this on the SLIAC board, but wanted to add it here.
Last week when NPU came to visit Fontbonne Coach Brenegen had know idea of my Dad's battle. In the pre game hand shakes I could see the shocked look on his face when he saw my Dad's condition.

Following the contest, with the bus full and ready to depart, he spoke to me for 20 minutes. Regarding Dad's current situation and past accomplishments. upon leaving he gave me a hand shake and a hug.

I do not know what NPU fans and administration think of him as a coach. Rest assured the have a "class act" in Coach Brenegen. And, his words and incouragement made this coaches son feel good for the moment.

Good Luck to Coach Brenegen and his squad the rest rest of the year. You've gained a fan.

[East Beast]

Does Bosko's head still get all red when the Redmen turn the ball over?

[East Beast]

I posted this on the SLIAC board, but wanted to add it here.
Last week when NPU came to visit Fontbonne Coach Brenegen had know idea of my Dad's battle. In the pre game hand shakes I could see the shocked look on his face when he saw my Dad's condition.

Following the contest, with the bus full and ready to depart, he spoke to me for 20 minutes. Regarding Dad's current situation and past accomplishments. upon leaving he gave me a hand shake and a hug.

I do not know what NPU fans and administration think of him as a coach. Rest assured the have a "class act" in Coach Brenegen. And, his words and incouragement made this coaches son feel good for the moment.

Good Luck to Coach Brenegen and his squad the rest rest of the year. You've gained a fan.

Your family  and your dad are in the Beast family prayers. 

[usee]

Wheaton 80 trinity 78

Mccrary 24 pts 6 reb
Schultze 21 pts 12 reb