MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[spencer1988]

TitansIWU

I like your way of looking at the situation.

And One

Aaron did not run to the other end without anyone following him.  Eliud followed him all the way to the baseline.  Eliud got caught in no mans land as he ran out to three point area when Kevin split the two defenders with an easy pass over his head.  I am sure Eliud just got caught up in the moment but he would have been much better serve to stay back there and allow the Titans to catch up and foul Kevin.  Seeing Kevin's ft percentage, I am afraid there wasn't a great option on that play.

[Hoosier Titan]

TitansIWU and Spencer,

Regarding your comments about some IWU fans' shouting:  I'm torn between basically agreeing with you that some fans are just ridiculously biased (and vocal about it), and wishing that you didn't feel it appropriate to speculate on some Titan fans "having no filter on what they say" because of age. 

I've been frustrated with the fans riding the refs at IWU for as long as I've been here.  There have been times when I've moved around from my favorite spot in Shirk simply to get away from the loudest moaners.  But some of the worst offenders I've seen and heard are not the oldest folks in the crowd.  And a new trend has developed among some of the students:  taunting and riding the opposing coach (particularly Gray and Bosko) while IWU players are shooting free throws.  Is that dumb, or what?

In both cases, I put it down to ignorance and bad behavior, not just to age (young or old).

[TitansIWU]

I am certainly not suggesting that the only annoying and borderline poor sportsmanship exhibited in the stands at sporting events comes from the elderly fan base at IWU.

I am only attempting to explain what I have seen many times, it is not a scientific study on aging, nor were my comments meant to condemn a certain age group. I was really just making a comment that I have wondered about in my own head after many, many games.

I just notice that some of the comments from the elderly at times appear to be filterless, as though they have an opinion, and they are going to yell it out, because, well, they don't seem to care who cares. It may also be that in my mind, I just expect a little more restraint from people with such life experience, if that makes sense. Because I have these expectation, the comments might just register more with me hearing them from someone who is 75 or so.

I have also had the annoying displeasure of having a 9 year old sit directly behind me and yell "TITANS", as loud as humanly possible at least 500 times during a game at North Park a few years back.

The 9 year old I assume also had no "filter", but that might be because he had never considered how annoying it might be for the average fan.

I was always raised to remain absolutely silent during free throws no matter who was shooting them, and so it always shocks me at whatever goes on during them. I guess many see that as part of the fan experience, but I would rather be respectful and let the players decide the outcome of the free throw.

I forget where it was, but recently a CCIW game had a student with a large stuffed banana under the hoop as a player attempted free throws. I thought that behavior was unnecessary, but you will never control all of that, and I am certain some people believe this is ok.

[AndOne]

TitansIWU

I like your way of looking at the situation.

And One

Aaron did not run to the other end without anyone following him.  Eliud followed him all the way to the baseline.  Eliud got caught in no mans land as he ran out to three point area when Kevin split the two defenders with an easy pass over his head.  I am sure Eliud just got caught up in the moment but he would have been much better serve to stay back there and allow the Titans to catch up and foul Kevin.  Seeing Kevin's ft percentage, I am afraid there wasn't a great option on that play.

Spencer--

If you will watch the tape again you will see that Gonzalez did initially start to run with Tiknis. However, at some point he let Aaron go and went back toward Gillespie. When Kevin lets go of the pass, Gonzalez is even with the N in 'Wesleyan.' Thats only a few feet over half court. There is no way Gonzalez went all the way to the baseline with Tiknis. If he had, he would never have been able to recover all the way out to the N. When Aaron catches the ball under the basket, Gonzalez has only made it back to the O in 'Illinois.' The play begins at 1:45:07 and ends at 1:45:12.

[A Lover of the Game]

I forget where it was, but recently a CCIW game had a student with a large stuffed banana under the hoop as a player attempted free throws. I thought that behavior was unnecessary, but you will never control all of that, and I am certain some people believe this is ok.

That was at Wheaton.

[iwu70]

Q and Spencer88, I guess I just disagree with you on the last 20 seconds last night.  The Titans were not stopping NCC on the press, NCC was hitting FTs and the Titans were wobbly at the line, and with 20 seconds to go, to me the better play would have been to penetrate and kick out, with about 7-8 seconds to go, get a three from Ziemnick, Davis or Rudnicki, and hope you tie the game and get to OT.  If Rudnicki had made the two, clearly not being fouled as NCC was playing too smart, then we're still down one with NCC possession and they'd inbounded the ball effectively and had broken the press on several earlier possessions.  I agree missing the layup is not a coaching issue, but taking, going for the two surely was.  Greg is right, that poor execution earlier did us in, on the layup by Ticknis with about 30 seconds to go, and that latter part of the first half was key, as we again had them down pretty big, then let up and got the game back into the pace, style and flow of play that suited NCC.  In the latter half of the first half, I can hardly remember any point where we were pushing the ball, getting in transition, as they shot a very high percentage and our half-court defense just didn't cut it against their half-court offense.  I'm not taking anything away from the skill and effort of both teams, it was a very good DIII game by two excellent teams, but in the context of what had happened in those last two-three minutes or so, I think going for the game-tying trey would have been a better move, conventional wisdom or no.  IMHO.   

On the comments by fans, feelings about the refs, I'll clearly admit I'm one of those "green tinted fans" and "exercised fans" who wants to get my money's worth ($3 only afterall!) and have a chance to yell and scream what I wish, . . .  and get after the refs.  There were plenty, plenty of dubious calls last night and many fans were complaining, getting after the refs.  Come on, guys, this is DIII hoops, a game with CCIW championship implications, not a poetry salon or chapel service.  In the moment of Zimmer's hit, it sure looked to me like the shoulder, even the elbow came up on the screen and many in the audience were mad, aghast at the hit and the way Jordan went down and was just out cold.  It was a big moment and worry, and surely influenced the outcome of the game.  NCC was playing tough D throughout and this was a physical game with hard fouls, shirt grabbing, and lots of competitive juices flowing, on the floor and in the crowd.  Of course, in the heat of the moment, many fans, the IWU bench and coaching staff were yelling for some action . . . why no foul was called.  More simple, less violent offensive picks had been called as fouls at other points in the game.  I think it is easy to understand the heat of the moment when many IWU fans see their captain go down and stay down due to such a collision.  In addition, this crew missed a number of key calls on possessions and tipped balls out of bounds, and most in the crowd thought they just missed the calls badly.  I'm sure those "older" Titan fans who love to get into it, would not let these things pass.  Myself included.  I stand accused as charged (and I'm not alone).  I often wish the students would be as passionate and enthusiastic about cheering for the Titans as some of these "older alums."  Of course, some of the truly old alums just sit and enjoy the game and don't have the energy or the inclination to get up, to cheer and yell, or get into the refs in this way.  They are all still good and loyal IWU fans, without doubt.  Tommy Titan loves them all.  Luckily, it's a free country and everyone can cheer and yell as they "think appropriate."  I happen to truly believe in "expression."  Of course fans are biased, isn't that one basic element of being a fan?  I also applaud and respect good calls by the refs and good plays by the opposing team -- see my post and early congratulations to NCC on their "big win at Shirk" last night.  As much as it pains me as a bigtime, four+ decades Titan FAN, I clearly acknowledge that the Cardinals are the best team in the CCIW this year. 

I hope IWU has another chance to play them in the CCIW tournament and I surely hope Jordan Zimmer recovers quickly and is able to play.  How sad would it be if he's out now for a number of games and has basically finished his stellar IWU career.  (and you wonder why some fans were mad, angry, even aghast at his injury last night?).  Being at the game, seeing him hit and down, in a close game, is clearly different than watching on the video and examining the play in some clinical fashion after the fact. 

Another tough game for the Titans in Kenosha.  Obviously, CC is playing very well taking down Wheaton, so the Titans best bring their A game on Saturday or their chances even for a place in the CCIW tournament may well be at risk. 

IWU70

[Just Bill]

As someone with no dog in the fight, I just watched the video of the play in which the IWU player was injured and I saw nothing that appeared to be a foul. It looked to me like the NCC player had his arm straight down at his side and was in a set position when the contact occurred.

[AndOne]

I will also say that the older crowd at IWU are very loyal but they lack some basketball knowledge based on the comments they yell at the refs every game I have attended.  Tonight I thought the worst was when Zimmer was hurt by running into the shoulder of a screen.  The North Central player setting the screen may have ducked a shoulder but it clearly wasn't malicious and maybe not even a foul.  The IWU fans are spouting at the ref during the first few minutes that Zimmer lay on the ground with a trainer over him.  This wasn't the students this was the older Titan fans.  I appreciate the passion but a real lack of perspective to be yelling at the officials for a couple minutes when one of your players is laying on the ground injured.  Just an observation.

It's really just a matter of some of them being of the age where they have absolutely no filter on what they say or the rationale behind it. I agree it is pretty annoying, but I have sat in the stands around them enough times to know that they really are not mean spirited people, they just have somehow lost a sense of what is appropriate. For a long time, I wondered if it was just their generation. I am still not 100% sure, but I lean towards them just being verbally reckless as they age.

Either that or their green tinted glasses are so thick, it impairs their ability to think clearly before they speak?

Some actually never say a word, but there are a couple of groups that are truly brutal, and they say things that if you said when you were younger might even cause a fight in the stands!

God bless them all for being out there, we all have to get older and I hope I am as active as many of them someday.

I hope Zimmer is okay, I remember seeing a similar collision years ago in high school, this was before the precautions of today. The player ended up going back in the game and later in the locker room, he asked "did we win?"

So, I am glad they take more precautions today, the effects of a concussion can be felt for a lifetime.

TitansIWU

Several posters have already affirmed Landon didn't do anything wrong so that isn't an issue.

*You make a good and important point with regard to the treatment of concussions and the need to exercise care.
As an illustration of said care, I can tell you what the modus operandi is at North Central.

First of all, its noteworthy that a concussion is a metabolic rather than a structural injury. Thus structural neuroimaging techniques such as CT, MRI, or EEG are often insensitive as the the effects of concussion syndrome.
Accordingly, currently at the forefront of proper concussion management is the implementation of baseline and/or post-injury neurocognitive testing.
First, an athlete must pass a computer generated neurocognitive test given at school. Only when he/she passes this test, the athlete is then sent to a neurologist for additional personal neurocognitive testing by the medical specialist who then can authorize or continue to withhold permission to return to action. Only the neurologist can authorize the return, and a player doesn't even get to see the neuro until successfully passing the test on the computer.
I assume many schools also follow this 2 level/stage process in the management of concussion syndrome.   

[iwu70]

AndOne, if you are right about the protocol and if we remember how long Molinari and Goldthree were out earlier, then I'm very sad to say that Jordan Zimmer's stellar IWU basketball career may be over.  I surely hope not.  A tough loss for the Titans, and an even tougher loss for Jordan.  I hope he's OK and can recover quickly. 

IWU70

[AndOne]

I forget where it was, but recently a CCIW game had a student with a large stuffed banana under the hoop as a player attempted free throws. I thought that behavior was unnecessary, but you will never control all of that, and I am certain some people believe this is ok.

That was at Wheaton.

For some strange reason that made no sense, to me at least, Wheaton previously changed from what I thought was a perfect nickname (CRUSADERS) to the Thunder. But,.................maybe it should have been the BANANA SLUGS, a la the UC-Santa Cruz Banana Slugs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Banana_slug_at_UCSC.jpg

[Hoosier Titan]

I was always raised to remain absolutely silent during free throws no matter who was shooting them, and so it always shocks me at whatever goes on during them. I guess many see that as part of the fan experience, but I would rather be respectful and let the players decide the outcome of the free throw.

I forget where it was, but recently a CCIW game had a student with a large stuffed banana under the hoop as a player attempted free throws. I thought that behavior was unnecessary, but you will never control all of that, and I am certain some people believe this is ok.

Yes, I would like to see everyone quiet for free throws too.  Unfortunately, behavior is filtering down from D1 and the NBA.  My point was that trying to distract the opposition has been going on for some time now; distracting your own team doesn't make any sense at all!

The large stuffed banana made its appearance (twice) when IWU was playing at Wheaton.  Two different students came down to the end of the floor where IWU was shooting free throws to try to distract the shooters at two different times.  The first one tried to climb into the stands and was rebuffed by IWU fans, whereupon he started jumping up and down on it right on the floor (although not within the court boundaries).  The second time it happened, the ref told the student to leave and he did.  It didn't affect the outcome of the game, but it wasn't great sportsmanship.

I'd like to see more leadership from schools--ADs?  coaches?--on issues of sportsmanship.

[TitansIWU]

When I was in grade school, the principal used to walk near the student section during the free throws and if he saw a student even consider making a sound, he would yank the kid out of the stands and take them out of the gym.

All the kids learned in about 2 games that it would not be tolerated and I would guess most of us from that school don't make a peep to this day!

I absolutely agree it starts at the top.

[AndOne]

AndOne, if you are right about the protocol and if we remember how long Molinari and Goldthree were out earlier, then I'm very sad to say that Jordan Zimmer's stellar IWU basketball career may be over.  I surely hope not.  A tough loss for the Titans, and an even tougher loss for Jordan.  I hope he's OK and can recover quickly. 

IWU70

CJ was injured on 12/30, and was not allowed/able to participate again until 1/17--approx 2 1/2 weeks.

[bopol]

With respect to concussions, it is my understanding that once you have a concussion, you are more likely to get concussions in the future.  There was an article in the Tribune a couple of weeks ago about a player that needed to retire because he got a concussion (like his 4th) on a fairly mundane hit.  It could be that the contact wasn't as bad, but the player is more vulnerable to the hit.

Anyway, hope he gets well soon.

[old baseliner]

As you can tell by my number of posts, I am not a hall of fame poster, merely a lurker.  I have been an IWU fan since the late 1960s.  I am now 57 years old and can be considered an elderly IWU fan.  I found the posts by spencer 1988 and TitansIWU insightful, and I thank them.  Last night at the NCC/IWU mens game I left my baseline seat at halftime and watched the second half in the relative quiet of the upper level railing.  The reason for my move was a few of the usual suspects, a couple of IWU fans, even older than myself verbally abusing a NCC player.  After loudly discussing a Cardinal player's use of elbows, they agreed that said player was a "dirty player".  Yes, in midst of a physical half of basketball their green tinted vision only picked out one dark red jersey wearing culprit.  They yelled the player's number to the officials and screamed of his heinous deeds.  Fine, I can take complaining to the officials, that must come with the price of a ticket.  But, then they took upon themselves to scream at the young man, telling him that he was a dirty player, and when the player was fouled on the defensive end, he came to our end to shoot his free throws.  The two fans yelled at the dirty player and wanted to know how it felt to hit the floor and get his own medicine. Glaring at the fans were not enough.  I should have done more, but didn't.  I waited until half and I left my seat and headed for quieter surroundings.

I suffer the frustrated fans who coach from their seats, guided by the remarkable skill gained from hindsight.  I suffer the fans who feel it is their responsibility to distract the refs from their already difficult, if not impossible job.  But, I am disappointed with the spectators, who see nothing out of place by attacking young men and women who only want to play this sport they love, and compete with their like-minded opponents.  I can only hope that before anyone takes it upon themselves to attack and opposing player, that they take a second and imagine their target in their own school's colors.