MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

Four of the eight CCIW teams finished the season with losing overall records this year. That's the first time that that's happened since 2001-02, and only the second time in the past fifteen seasons.

Not a good year for the league.

The programs at North Central, Wheaton, IWU, and Augustana are in great shape.  Hopefully the bottom of the league - especially North Park and Millikin - can get its stuff together.

Send a rebounder to Carthage and they'll be fine next year.  Just one.

bopol---

I'm interested in your take on this question. Here is mine---

I think what CC needs most is a pure shooter/scorer to take some of the scoring load off Malcom Kelly. Why? Because they should already HAVE 2 rebounders.
Mitch Thompson was a tremendous rebounder, shot blocker, defender early in his career. However, since then, his brain seems to have short circuited and told him he is a scorer. He seems to have gone away from what he does best. While he may have the ability to have some big scoring games, I don't see this happening on a consistent basis. I think some of the fault here is Bosko's in that he seems to have forgotten to remind Mitch where he can make his biggest contribution to team success on the most consistent basis.
Luke Johnson got D1 looks coming out of high school. I think this had mostly to do with his height and the fact that, in part, he was able to dominate in high school due to a combination of his height and several weak opponents. The primary knock on Mr Johnson was that he was a bit "soft" in that he wasn't really fond of playing under the basket and  banging down low. I saw this when CC played NCC this season. He seemed to enjoy hanging out at the 3 point line on offense, and taking a position in the middle of the paint on defense. At 6'9" he should primarily be playing down low on both ends of the floor. That way, it seems his defensive rebounding stats would improve, and his offensive board work would definitely improve. He needs to toughen up and play when he can do his team the most good overall. With his height and shooting touch, the points will come. His rebounding numbers may be good, but they should be bettter.
JMHO. 

[WUPHF]

Is the grouping of North Central/Wheaton/Illinois Wesleyan/Augustana really inferior to these teams?  Consider...

* IWU beat Wash U by a bunch

I would love to see that game played again with Klimek on the court.

[toooldtohoop]

greg-I got to see your squad for the first time this year at wheaton.  I got a sense of your frustration.  you definitely need some offensive weapons, but defensively...oh my.  maybe just an end of the year "lets get it over"?

and I must agree with huh in regards to the iwu wash game from earlier this year.  I have seen iwu play a handful of games, and that was easily the best they looked to me.
and I have seen washu now a few times also, and when they're bad, they're bad.

maybe that means that I agree with the notion that there is a lot of parity this year.

anyway, it sure is fun to watch d3 hoops!

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, for 'Salem caliber' teams, I'd add UWW and MIT (imagine that - the NE may be the toughest region, for once!), and, probably, UMHB.

The NEWMAC doesn't strike me as that tough a league, Chuck. (I wonder if anyone in that league's made a deep tourney run since Clark made the Elite Eight back in '02.) Who have the Engineers beaten? Tufts? That's about it. And UMHB likewise suffers from playing in a league that has not done anything to prove itself in the post-season (although the long-distance trips required of an ASC team in March hamper deep runs by its teams).

I've already gone on record as saying that I wasn't impressed by UWW when I saw them the opening weekend of the season, and have since recanted ... so I'm staying mum about the Warhawks at this point.

[AndOne]

Is the grouping of North Central/Wheaton/Illinois Wesleyan/Augustana really inferior to these teams?  Consider...

* IWU beat Wash U by a bunch

I would love to see that game played again with Klimek on the court.

And a lot of us would like to be able to replay some games with all of our starters healthy and able to participate. However, the opponents in those games are still gonna say "tough er, poop." 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg, for 'Salem caliber' teams, I'd add UWW and MIT (imagine that - the NE may be the toughest region, for once!), and, probably, UMHB.

The NEWMAC doesn't strike me as that tough a league, Chuck. (I wonder if anyone in that league's made a deep tourney run since Clark made the Elite Eight back in '02.) Who have the Engineers beaten? Tufts? That's about it. And UMHB likewise suffers from playing in a league that has not done anything to prove itself in the post-season (although the long-distance trips required of an ASC team in March hamper deep runs by its teams).

I've already gone on record as saying that I wasn't impressed by UWW when I saw them the opening weekend of the season, and have since recanted ... so I'm staying mum about the Warhawks at this point.

The MIAA is not that tough a league either (especially this year), but you led off with Hope.

I'll stick with my picks.

I'll have to agree with BOTH you and Q - the CCIW seems way down compared with some of the 'glory years', but all of d3 seems to be down from those years: a CCIW team in Salem would certainly not shock me - surprise, perhaps, but not shock.

There is no obviously dominant team as some years have produced (including IWU in 2006, who didn't get it done!)

[AndOne]

It was good to see Ro Russell (13 pts, 4:0 a:to ratio) and Emanuel Crosby (12 pts, 6 rebs) go out with solid performances, at least at the offensive end of the floor. Mike Gabriel (12 pts) came off the bench and generally played well. Mark Holmes had his second straight off night, and he kinda looked worn down by the long season. Can't blame him, as he's been Atlas trying to hold the world on his shoulders since mid-November.

North Park needs no fewer than five CCIW-varsity-ready newbies next year. The Vikings need a starting center (or starting power forward; Gabriel's versatility allows the coaches to recruit in either direction), a starting shooting guard, and a starting point guard. They also need a bench big and a bench wing, both of whom can play heavy minutes and start if needed. Whether they will need a backup point guard or not really depends upon whether or not Josh McNaughton can develop the ability to be stronger on the ball and to at least shoot the ball minimally well enough from the perimeter to make his man guard him semi-honestly. If he can do that, then he's probably not going to hurt NPU for six to ten minutes per game off the bench at the point. If he can't ... well, then that means that the NPU coaching staff will need to bring in six CCIW-varsity-ready newbies next year, rather than five.

(I'm not discounting the idea that one or more returnees not named Holmes or Gabriel will dramatically improve his game to the point of being able to fill one of those needs, but IMHO it's not very likely to happen. At the very least, the coaching staff can't assume that it will happen.)

North Park has a very, very, very steep uphill climb ahead of it, and right now that climb is all about getting in guys for next year who can excel in this league.

Greg---

You likely won't agree with this, but I'd suggest SOME of NPU's misfortune this season was due to dubious personnel decisions on the part of Coach Howard. Specifically, it seems North Park would have stood a better chance of picking up at least a few more victories should Russell and Crosby have been in the starting lineup more often. I think the aforementioned twosome would have presented a few more obstacles to opponents than did names such as McNaughton, Peterson, and Rice. 

[iwu70]

Wheaton should have won that game at Hope.

My "Salem ready" teams are:

Amherst
Middlebury
Virginia Wesleyan
WI-Whitewater

Many others could make some noise, have a great run, and find an easy road, a pleasant or easier bracket.  We'll soon find out.

My own view is that any CCIW team getting a bid could easily get hot and make a good run, 3-5 games into the tournament.  Our league teams are battle tested. We're only talking six games afterall so we'll see.  I'm not convinced that our four top contenders, those CCIW teams likely to get in, are all that much "down" this year.  Are they totally consistent and dominant, no . . . but could they put together a deep run into the Dance, I believe they could.  Recent history with teams getting Pool C bids from the CCIW, finishing second or third in the league, have put together such runs in the past.  Yes, I know, this year is this year . . . but let's just hope 2 or 3 CCIW teams get a chance to make the run.

I like the look of Q's Pool C listing as of now.  Let's get all the league leaders in our region and around the country in via pool A, and see where we go from there.  All four CCIW teams have put up good seasons at least worthy of consideration . . . let's hope for three bids total.

IWU70

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

A couple of thoughts from my side...

Amherst, Middlebury, Hope, UW-Whitewater, Virginia Wesleyan, Wittenberg, Transylvania, and UMHB are teams I think have the potential to be Salem ready... BUT there are so many factors.. and each team has it's flaws.

I don't think teams are "down" in D3... though the CCIW is down. I also think there are other teams that could make runs because of how things line-up and they match-up.

I think teams like MIT may be slightly overrated due to a weak NEWMAC... however, I don't think you can count them out... it is just going to be hard to come out of the NE this year with so many good teams... and MIT could find a way to do it.

And even a team from the Atlantic (William Patterson) or Mid-Atlantic (Cabrini or F&M) could surprise and arrive in Salem.

I think there is a lot more parity with plenty of different styles of basketball being played making it very difficult to compare teams like apples to apples.

For example, IWU beat Staten Island who certainly doesn't play in a tough conference, but it was a decent game between two VERY different styles. However, I can't sit here and then tell you that means Staten Island isn't that good a team because they lost to IWU.

[sac]

Wheaton should have won that game at Hope.

Hope led for 39 minutes of that game, quite a bit of it by double-digits.  They should have closed it out better.

http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/1112/ccimiaa1.htm

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, for 'Salem caliber' teams, I'd add UWW and MIT (imagine that - the NE may be the toughest region, for once!), and, probably, UMHB.

The NEWMAC doesn't strike me as that tough a league, Chuck. (I wonder if anyone in that league's made a deep tourney run since Clark made the Elite Eight back in '02.) Who have the Engineers beaten? Tufts? That's about it. And UMHB likewise suffers from playing in a league that has not done anything to prove itself in the post-season (although the long-distance trips required of an ASC team in March hamper deep runs by its teams).

I've already gone on record as saying that I wasn't impressed by UWW when I saw them the opening weekend of the season, and have since recanted ... so I'm staying mum about the Warhawks at this point.

The MIAA is not that tough a league either (especially this year), but you led off with Hope.

Hope played a really tough non-conference schedule, Chuck:

Western Michigan (D1)
Cornerstone (19-11)
Indiana Wesleyan (20-10)
Spring Arbor (18-11)
Marian (IN) (18-9)
Wheaton (19-5)
Marietta (17-8)

The only one of those teams that Hope didn't beat was Western Michigan.

A couple of thoughts from my side...

Amherst, Middlebury, Hope, UW-Whitewater, Virginia Wesleyan, Wittenberg, Transylvania, and UMHB are teams I think have the potential to be Salem ready.

Transylvania is a team that I could see going places. I respect the HCAC, and Transy's been absolutely dominant in that circuit this season. Wittenberg, I can see, too, because -- I can't believe that I'm saying this -- the entire upper half of the NCAC's fairly strong this year, and Witt is thus pretty battle-tested.

Wheaton should have won that game at Hope.

Hope led for 39 minutes of that game, quite a bit of it by double-digits.  They should have closed it out better.

http://miaa.org/mbb/stats/1112/ccimiaa1.htm

My feelings exactly.

[Gregory Sager]

It was good to see Ro Russell (13 pts, 4:0 a:to ratio) and Emanuel Crosby (12 pts, 6 rebs) go out with solid performances, at least at the offensive end of the floor. Mike Gabriel (12 pts) came off the bench and generally played well. Mark Holmes had his second straight off night, and he kinda looked worn down by the long season. Can't blame him, as he's been Atlas trying to hold the world on his shoulders since mid-November.

North Park needs no fewer than five CCIW-varsity-ready newbies next year. The Vikings need a starting center (or starting power forward; Gabriel's versatility allows the coaches to recruit in either direction), a starting shooting guard, and a starting point guard. They also need a bench big and a bench wing, both of whom can play heavy minutes and start if needed. Whether they will need a backup point guard or not really depends upon whether or not Josh McNaughton can develop the ability to be stronger on the ball and to at least shoot the ball minimally well enough from the perimeter to make his man guard him semi-honestly. If he can do that, then he's probably not going to hurt NPU for six to ten minutes per game off the bench at the point. If he can't ... well, then that means that the NPU coaching staff will need to bring in six CCIW-varsity-ready newbies next year, rather than five.

(I'm not discounting the idea that one or more returnees not named Holmes or Gabriel will dramatically improve his game to the point of being able to fill one of those needs, but IMHO it's not very likely to happen. At the very least, the coaching staff can't assume that it will happen.)

North Park has a very, very, very steep uphill climb ahead of it, and right now that climb is all about getting in guys for next year who can excel in this league.

Greg---

You likely won't agree with this, but I'd suggest SOME of NPU's misfortune this season was due to dubious personnel decisions on the part of Coach Howard. Specifically, it seems North Park would have stood a better chance of picking up at least a few more victories should Russell and Crosby have been in the starting lineup more often. I think the aforementioned twosome would have presented a few more obstacles to opponents than did names such as McNaughton, Peterson, and Rice.

You're right, Mark ... I don't agree with it. Who starts and who doesn't tends to be pretty overrated in terms of its impact upon a game. What matters is minutes, not starts. Here's how the minutes per game were distributed among the players who were in the rotation at the end of the year:

Mark Holmes	31.7
Emanuel Crosby	27.4
Ro Russell	26.8
Mike Gabriel	25.0
Josh McNaughton	14.6
Mike Rice	13.4
Brett Peterson	12.9
Reggie McGee	11.3

Note the yawning chasm in the amount of court time seen by the top four players in the rotation as compared to the bottom four. In fact, Crosby and Russell both saw more minutes per game than did NPU's best all-around player, Mike Gabriel.

The reason why Crosby didn't start all that often is simple. After he lost Phil Schniedermeier and Christian Alsing, Dylan Howard was forced to go away from his planned front line of Crosby/Gabriel/Holmes. He couldn't afford to play that trio simultaneously anymore, because he really had no backups left behind them. Nate Rummel was the only other big man left on the roster, and he just isn't ready to bang with CCIW varsity bigs. In fact, one of the myriad problems that NPU had this season was that Mark Holmes was forced to play out of position a lot as a PF. His ideal position is SF.

[AndOne]

I still think a starting lineup with a front court of Crosby, Gabriel, and Holmes along with Russell and whoever in the back court would have been worth trying. Rummel could have been used to give one of the starters a breather for a couple of minutes at a time. If this resulted in increased PT for him, maybe it would have aided his development, and possible added contribution next year. After all, the lineup that was employed didn't exactly result in a plethora of victories. What did they have to lose? Seems like it would have been worth a try. 

[John Gleich]

No doubt. But there's more to it than that. The first-division teams, while all representing healthy programs, aren't Salem caliber this year.

Is this "Salem caliber" in terms of what you traditionally perceive a Final Four team to look like, or based on actual 2011-12 observations?  Because here are the top 2 teams in each region (from the current regional rankings)...

Atlantic - 1) William Paterson, 2) Staten Island
East - 1) Hartwick, 2) Oswego State
Great Lakes - 1) Hope, 2) Wittenberg
Mid-Atlantic - 1) Cabrini, 2) Keystone
Midwest - 1) Wash U, 2) Lake Forest
Northeast - 1) Amherst, 2) Middlebury
South - 1) Mary Hardin-Baylor, 2) Va Wesleyan
West - 1) UW-River Falls, 2) UW-Stevens Point


Is the grouping of North Central/Wheaton/Illinois Wesleyan/Augustana really inferior to these teams?  Consider...

* IWU won @ Staten Island
* Wheaton lost by 1 @ Hope
* IWU beat Wash U by a bunch
* Augie beat UW-Stevens Point


Or do we just have a ton of parity in Division III this year, and the top 4 CCIW teams could basically play with anyone in the country on any given night?

Who exactly are the definite "Salem caliber" teams in 2011-12?

The problem I have with this is that each of those results you mentioned were in 2011.  Sure, that's when the non-conference schedules were played, but championship teams really come together through their conference schedule.

We're a month and a half past the non-con sched and a ton can (and has) happened in that time.

Also, though these teams were the top two per the last regional rankings, Whitewater is the #1 team in the West (you can count on it Wednesday) and is a Salem-caliber team.

[USee]

The Wheaton/ Hope game was @Calvin. FYI.