MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[cciwrabblerouser]

I can't understand why the CCIW coaches want a conference tournament. It only helps one team and hurts the other 3. And NCC with 2 consecutive leage titles could be twice denied a worthy NCAA tourney berth. The conference tournament makes no sense, either economic, academic (more classes missed), or NCAA tourney wise.

Well, there is SOME value to a conference tournament, such as...
... allows the 'middle of the pack' teams to be motivated at the end to make the tournament and possibly earn the AQ
... makes $$$ for the conference (although it could make more if the higher seeds got to host mid-week games = more attendance at games)
... current set-up gives the winning team opportunity to win two nights in a row, which must happen the following weekend

I think that money is probably the overriding reason for the tournament.

[NCF]

I can't understand why the CCIW coaches want a conference tournament. It only helps one team and hurts the other 3. And NCC with 2 consecutive leage titles could be twice denied a worthy NCAA tourney berth. The conference tournament makes no sense, either economic, academic (more classes missed), or NCAA tourney wise.

Well, there is SOME value to a conference tournament, such as...
... allows the 'middle of the pack' teams to be motivated at the end to make the tournament and possibly earn the AQ
... makes $$$ for the conference (although it could make more if the higher seeds got to host mid-week games = more attendance at games)
... current set-up gives the winning team opportunity to win two nights in a row, which must happen the following weekend

I think that money is probably the overriding reason for the tournament.

All good points, however, the regular season should be more important than a two game tournament. Just MHO

[John Gleich]

And in the category of "What if...", it appears that if the CCIW had NO tournament our conference would be close to a lock for 3 teams in the NCAA tournament. NCC gets the AQ, Wheaton pool C and IWU pretty much a solid pool C. Am I right on that?

This is absolutely correct as I see it.  With no tournament, North Central would be the Pool A, Wheaton would be a Pool C lock, and IWU would be sitting at about #12-13 on the Pool C list, only worried about a large # of "bubble burster" upsets through Sunday...and probably still OK, even with a number of upsets, due to a good SOS and wins vs regionally ranked teams (in-region and out-of-region). 

Because there is a conference tournament, 3 teams are guaranteed to see their in-region winning % fall before Selection Sunday.  Contrast with the UAA, where there is no tournament.  Pool C candidates like NYU and Emory aren't going to lose games in a conference tournament.  And if you go to that mock Pool C selection I did, note the major impact of going 0-1 or even 1-1 in terms of Pool C.  For example...

IWU today: 17-6 (.739)
IWU with a loss tonight: 17-7 (.708)
IWU with 1-1 this weekend: 18-7 (.720)

When you consider how competitive the process is, the difference between .739 and .720 is what I'd call "very significant", and .739 vs .708 might be a deal killer.

Mike Schauer talked about the conference tournament issue on Hoopsville last night - see the archive.  He said he's opposed.  His main point was that the CCIW's regular season champion deserves to make the NCAA tournament and should not have to go "earn it" this weekend.  (NCC won the CCIW last year and stayed home...it could very well happen again this year).

I think the tournament is a lot of fun, but I'm pretty sure the odds are better that it hurts and not helps the league get teams into the NCAA tournament.  It was originally billed as a way to help get teams in, and I just don't think that is the case.

I'm also of the old school opinion that the winner of the grueling 2-month, 14-game CCIW schedule should get the Pool A bid.

My only question with this line of thinking is this... wouldn't this be the case for many other conferences too?  (not so much directed at Bob... but just in general on the topic, b/c so many seem opposed to it, including Coach Schauer last night on Hoopsville)

I understand that the CCIW historically hadn't had a conference tournament until a few years ago, but everybody else in the nation has one with the exception for the UAA and the Ivy league.

And I don't buy the argument that, if a team can't win 2 games in 2 days, they still deserve a bid.  Everybody else in the country has to do that (or more in the case of full 8 team tournaments) or sweat it out.

I hear all the time about the "body of work."  Is a body of work really complete without winning the conference tournament?  Or, for that matter, with having a mediocre non-conference schedule?

I just don't buy the fact that North Central, the CCIW champion, is any more deserving of an NCAA bid than, say, the NathCon champion, Concordia of Wisconsin, who is ranked ahead of them in the Midwest regional rankings by virtue of having an in-region winning percentage that's 5 percentage points higher.  Yes, North Central has a higher SOS and more regionally ranked opponents than CUW, but that's because the CCIW is better than the NathCon.  But as much as this is about getting out of your conference, it's about getting into the national tournament... And it's based on your entire season, not just the 14 games played since Jan 1.

It isn't like the CCIW isn't going to get multiple teams in... they're going to still definitely get two, if not three (the potential for Augie to win it and IWU and Wheaton to still get bids exists, I think).

I guess it just seems strange to me that a team would put itself in this same position twice... they don't do really well in the non-conference but then they win the conference.  Had they done what they needed to do in the non-con, then they might have gotten a bid anyway*.  And heck, even scheduling non-conference games that were in-region instead of out-of-region could have given them a higher winning percentage and given them a better resume, especially because the chances are pretty good that even a top team is going to take some licks in a generally balanced conference like the CCIW.  And besides... the regional concept isn't new... It's been around for years and teams have the ability to schedule accordingly or otherwise.

I have to admit that I don't understand why there are so many out-of-region games in the CCIW's general non-conference ledger.  It can't be that there aren't enough teams to play... not when other schools in the region have enough regional games.  Sure, perhaps it calls into question how the regional system works (it doesn't make sense that games against teams from Michigan and Indiana beyond a certain distance aren't in-region, but games that are 2000+ miles are, I certainly agree), but if those games aren't in-region, then stop playing them.  Some are longer rivalries... but North Central vs. Albion?  I know it's a rivalry that brings in big crowds (a raucus 137 saw this year's addition)...

To quote the lead-in to Hoopsville... "Don't lose to bad teams... and don't lose in your conference tournament!"



*(Yes, I understand the argument that the non-con gets you ready for conference and they might not have had IT -whatever it is- if they hadn't played the teams and had the experiences in the non-con)



/rambling rant
/soap box

[John Gleich]

I can't understand why the CCIW coaches want a conference tournament. It only helps one team and hurts the other 3. And NCC with 2 consecutive leage titles could be twice denied a worthy NCAA tourney berth. The conference tournament makes no sense, either economic, academic (more classes missed), or NCAA tourney wise.

Well, there is SOME value to a conference tournament, such as...
... allows the 'middle of the pack' teams to be motivated at the end to make the tournament and possibly earn the AQ
... makes $$$ for the conference (although it could make more if the higher seeds got to host mid-week games = more attendance at games)
... current set-up gives the winning team opportunity to win two nights in a row, which must happen the following weekend

I think that money is probably the overriding reason for the tournament.

All good points, however, the regular season should be more important than a two game tournament. Just MHO

... But doesn't the non-conference part of the schedule count as the regular season?  Certain contributors of this board have gone on crusades to stop people from using the inaccurate nomenclature when describing the non-conference season.

[NCF]

I can't understand why the CCIW coaches want a conference tournament. It only helps one team and hurts the other 3. And NCC with 2 consecutive leage titles could be twice denied a worthy NCAA tourney berth. The conference tournament makes no sense, either economic, academic (more classes missed), or NCAA tourney wise.

Well, there is SOME value to a conference tournament, such as...
... allows the 'middle of the pack' teams to be motivated at the end to make the tournament and possibly earn the AQ
... makes $$$ for the conference (although it could make more if the higher seeds got to host mid-week games = more attendance at games)
... current set-up gives the winning team opportunity to win two nights in a row, which must happen the following weekend

I think that money is probably the overriding reason for the tournament.

All good points, however, the regular season should be more important than a two game tournament. Just MHO

... But doesn't the non-conference part of the schedule count as the regular season?  Certain contributors of this board have gone on crusades to stop people from using the inaccurate nomenclature when describing the non-conference season.

Of course they all count, they should. I think the regular conference season winner should get the AQ and eliminate the tournament. If you don't win your conference, then you better have a good overall record to get into the Dance.

[monsoon]

Thanks for the parking suggestions, AO.

[Titan Q]

My only question with this line of thinking is this... wouldn't this be the case for many other conferences too?  (not so much directed at Bob... but just in general on the topic, b/c so many seem opposed to it, including Coach Schauer last night on Hoopsville)

Absolutely this is a conversation that applies to every conference (except the UAA).  It's just that this is the CCIW board, so we're talking about the topic of conference tournament vs no conference tournament in regards to this particular conference.  I would think every conference would have the same debate really.

I just don't buy the fact that North Central, the CCIW champion, is any more deserving of an NCAA bid than, say, the NathCon champion, Concordia of Wisconsin, who is ranked ahead of them in the Midwest regional rankings by virtue of having an in-region winning percentage that's 5 percentage points higher.  Yes, North Central has a higher SOS and more regionally ranked opponents than CUW, but that's because the CCIW is better than the NathCon.  But as much as this is about getting out of your conference, it's about getting into the national tournament... And it's based on your entire season, not just the 14 games played since Jan 1.

I don't think anyone has suggested that a CCIW champ (that loses in the conf tournament) deserves a bid more than, say, the NathCon champ.  I think the debate is simply around whether or not it's better for the CCIW (since afterall, this is a conference-by-conference decision) to reward its regular season champion with the Pool A bid, or make that team earn it via the conf tournament.  Again, I'm of the opinion that the 14-game slate is the best measure of the champion, and not 2 games.  Certainly many disagree with that.

I'm not quite sure where you were going with the quote above.

[AndOne]

And in the category of "What if...", it appears that if the CCIW had NO tournament our conference would be close to a lock for 3 teams in the NCAA tournament. NCC gets the AQ, Wheaton pool C and IWU pretty much a solid pool C. Am I right on that?

This is absolutely correct as I see it.  With no tournament, North Central would be the Pool A, Wheaton would be a Pool C lock, and IWU would be sitting at about #12-13 on the Pool C list, only worried about a large # of "bubble burster" upsets through Sunday...and probably still OK, even with a number of upsets, due to a good SOS and wins vs regionally ranked teams (in-region and out-of-region). 

Because there is a conference tournament, 3 teams are guaranteed to see their in-region winning % fall before Selection Sunday.  Contrast with the UAA, where there is no tournament.  Pool C candidates like NYU and Emory aren't going to lose games in a conference tournament.  And if you go to that mock Pool C selection I did, note the major impact of going 0-1 or even 1-1 in terms of Pool C.  For example...

IWU today: 17-6 (.739)
IWU with a loss tonight: 17-7 (.708)
IWU with 1-1 this weekend: 18-7 (.720)

When you consider how competitive the process is, the difference between .739 and .720 is what I'd call "very significant", and .739 vs .708 might be a deal killer.

Mike Schauer talked about the conference tournament issue on Hoopsville last night - see the archive.  He said he's opposed.  His main point was that the CCIW's regular season champion deserves to make the NCAA tournament and should not have to go "earn it" this weekend.  (NCC won the CCIW last year and stayed home...it could very well happen again this year).

I think the tournament is a lot of fun, but I'm pretty sure the odds are better that it hurts and not helps the league get teams into the NCAA tournament.  It was originally billed as a way to help get teams in, and I just don't think that is the case.

I'm also of the old school opinion that the winner of the grueling 2-month, 14-game CCIW schedule should get the Pool A bid.

My only question with this line of thinking is this... wouldn't this be the case for many other conferences too?  (not so much directed at Bob... but just in general on the topic, b/c so many seem opposed to it, including Coach Schauer last night on Hoopsville)

I understand that the CCIW historically hadn't had a conference tournament until a few years ago, but everybody else in the nation has one with the exception for the UAA and the Ivy league.

And I don't buy the argument that, if a team can't win 2 games in 2 days, they still deserve a bid.  Everybody else in the country has to do that (or more in the case of full 8 team tournaments) or sweat it out.

I hear all the time about the "body of work."  Is a body of work really complete without winning the conference tournament?  Or, for that matter, with having a mediocre non-conference schedule?

I just don't buy the fact that North Central, the CCIW champion, is any more deserving of an NCAA bid than, say, the NathCon champion, Concordia of Wisconsin, who is ranked ahead of them in the Midwest regional rankings by virtue of having an in-region winning percentage that's 5 percentage points higher.  Yes, North Central has a higher SOS and more regionally ranked opponents than CUW, but that's because the CCIW is better than the NathCon.  But as much as this is about getting out of your conference, it's about getting into the national tournament... And it's based on your entire season, not just the 14 games played since Jan 1.

It isn't like the CCIW isn't going to get multiple teams in... they're going to still definitely get two, if not three (the potential for Augie to win it and IWU and Wheaton to still get bids exists, I think).

I guess it just seems strange to me that a team would put itself in this same position twice... they don't do really well in the non-conference but then they win the conference.  Had they done what they needed to do in the non-con, then they might have gotten a bid anyway*.  And heck, even scheduling non-conference games that were in-region instead of out-of-region could have given them a higher winning percentage and given them a better resume, especially because the chances are pretty good that even a top team is going to take some licks in a generally balanced conference like the CCIW.  And besides... the regional concept isn't new... It's been around for years and teams have the ability to schedule accordingly or otherwise.

I have to admit that I don't understand why there are so many out-of-region games in the CCIW's general non-conference ledger.  It can't be that there aren't enough teams to play... not when other schools in the region have enough regional games.  Sure, perhaps it calls into question how the regional system works (it doesn't make sense that games against teams from Michigan and Indiana beyond a certain distance aren't in-region, but games that are 2000+ miles are, I certainly agree), but if those games aren't in-region, then stop playing them.  Some are longer rivalries... but North Central vs. Albion?  I know it's a rivalry that brings in big crowds (a raucus 137 saw this year's addition)...

To quote the lead-in to Hoopsville... "Don't lose to bad teams... and don't lose in your conference tournament!"



*(Yes, I understand the argument that the non-con gets you ready for conference and they might not have had IT -whatever it is- if they hadn't played the teams and had the experiences in the non-con)



/rambling rant
/soap box

Point---

Here are some points for your consideration----

1. An above statement you made seems at least a bit contradictory. You indicated you don't know why the CCIW champ is any more deserving of a bid than the NathCon champ, but then state you're aware the CCIW is a better conference than the NathCon. Perhaps thats why. Perhaps you answered your own question.

2. As to North Central's "body of work" and non-conference record, and I understand your opinion as well as many others might be "so what" on this. But, just so you know, NCC played Albion without its PG, Kevin Gillespie, even being able to make the trip. They played Simpson without Aaron Tiknis being able to make the trip, and Derek Raridon was unable to play in either of the games in Florida. There isn't a lot of doubt that had these players not been out for these games, that NCC would have won them. Against both Aurora and Plattville, the Cardinals played a crappy game even with all hands on board. However, odds are overwhelming that with all their starters available, they would have won the 3 games mentioned above and hence, had a better "body of work." The losses in the concerned games reflected the fact that NCC did not have a deep bench, not that they were incapable of good "body of work."

3. As far as the CCIW playing many out of region games--1) Several CCIW teams like to reward their players by taking holiday trips to places like New York, Florida, Texas, or California, and 2) There aren't always a lot of teams lining up to play North Central, Wheaton, Illinois Wesleyan, and Augustana. You sometimes have to do what you can as far as scheduling. 3) Some geographically close conferences play an almost entirely conference schedule, and one conference plays only 23 regular season games as opposed to the 25 allowed by the NCAA.. Its not always a question of just pick out another in-state team and go play them.
If you want an example--NCC has played Lake Forest several times in recent years. Last year NCC, who is a better team this year than last year, beat Lake Forest by 38. NCC called LFC about playing again this season, but LFC somehow couldn't find any date that they could play NCC. Wonder why?

Like I said, whether you agree or not, some things to possibly just consider.   

[AndOne]

Thanks for the parking suggestions, AO.

You are very welcome. Monsoon. I can only hope that my suggestions end up being of benefit to some fans making the trip to Naperville.
I'm not an "assclown," as Titan Q graciously referred to me last year at this point in the season, all the time.     

[AndOne]

Time to make my way down to Merner and try to fink a parking spot.

Besides an NCC win tonight, here is hoping for an injury free evening for all the student-athletes involved. and safe travels for the teams and fans. 

[TitansIWU]

Thanks for the parking suggestions, AO.

You are very welcome. Monsoon. I can only hope that my suggestions end up being of benefit to some fans making the trip to Naperville.
I'm not an "assclown," as Titan Q graciously referred to me last year at this point in the season, all the time.     

I was just thinking about last year's "assclown" exchange this morning!

[TitansIWU]

I am having terrible video from Naperville, freezes up every ten seconds.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Signal is via wireless and as good as it is one minute... the bandwidth crashes the next. Not much more they can do at this point...

As for the CCIW tournament... what Coach Schauer also stated was he had no problems with a conference tournament when he was at Gordon... that this was something he didn't like in the CCIW.

I am going to ask the following simply because it has been in the back of my mind for awhile: what makes the CCIW so special that a conference tournament is such a bad idea? How do we know that the conference regular season champion is actually deserving of being in the NCAA tournament when there are more than conference games to consider (even NCC's coach stated on Hoopsville that their weak out-of-conference schedule last year hurt them)? Is the CCIW so greedy to get as many teams in the NCAA tournament that the simple idea of taking another loss is beyond what is "fair" in their minds?

Again, Coach Schauer pointed out that a conference tournament was something he was fine with when at Gordon where that conference could also decide the AQ goes to the regular season champ... but in the CCIW it is something he disagrees with... and I get that from a lot of CCIW posters. It seems hypocritical.

[John Gleich]

Signal is via wireless and as good as it is one minute... the bandwidth crashes the next. Not much more they can do at this point...

As for the CCIW tournament... what Coach Schauer also stated was he had no problems with a conference tournament when he was at Gordon... that this was something he didn't like in the CCIW.

I am going to ask the following simply because it has been in the back of my mind for awhile: what makes the CCIW so special that a conference tournament is such a bad idea? How do we know that the conference regular season champion is actually deserving of being in the NCAA tournament when there are more than conference games to consider (even NCC's coach stated on Hoopsville that their weak out-of-conference schedule last year hurt them)? Is the CCIW so greedy to get as many teams in the NCAA tournament that the simple idea of taking another loss is beyond what is "fair" in their minds?

Again, Coach Schauer pointed out that a conference tournament was something he was fine with when at Gordon where that conference could also decide the AQ goes to the regular season champ... but in the CCIW it is something he disagrees with... and I get that from a lot of CCIW posters. It seems hypocritical.

You articulated that better than I did.  This was essentially the idea I was trying to get at without actually saying it.

... In the words of John Rambo, same rules for everybody!

[Titan Q]

Wheaton 69
IWU 56