MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[bopol]

I just want to say what congratulations to the teams and fans of all the clubs that performed so well in the NCAA tournament.  I vastly underestimated North Central this year and wasn't that high on IWU either (though I did think that Wheaton was a legit top club).  It was a great year.

[iwumichigander]

A huge factor in this game was how it was officiated.  The whistle was completely even on both sides, but the consensus from all of the D3 coaches I spoke to afterwards was that this was the loosest whistle they'd ever seen in a tournament game.  To say they "let 'em play" would be an enormous understatement.  The amount of contact (pushing/shoving/grabbing) they allowed, in my opinion, crossed the line.  One of the coaches called it "way outside acceptable parameters."  Again, while the whistle was even and fair, the game called that way favored Cabrini bigtime.  They might be the shorter of the two teams, but they play an incredibly physical, rugged style...much more physical that IWU. 

Officiating? (always an excuse) - if they called everything, the game would last 5 hours. They can't call everything so the officials do their best. A favoring fan always sees it to one sided in which its not. This is the way officiating should be compared to the grade school officials you get from the CCIW. Don't bring up bad officiating as an excuse ever again.

Typical Ourhouse comment, has sat at home after his team's loss and was locked and loaded to come on here and bash IWU in some way.

Q was perfectly clear officiating wasn't the problem. Hell, there was no problem... IWU played at Cabrini's level and vice versa in different ways. Last possession game that could have gone either way. Had Eliud's last second heave went in, we still would be talking about the loose officiating. Anyone who watched saw hacking from both teams on every shot in the first half and almost no calls. The announcers commented on it several times. After a shot when you see a player smashed onto the ground and there is no call, that is loose.

Ourhouse, did you even watch the game or were you just ready to pounce on anything, whether it made sense to say or not?

Q has the officiating correct.  I would add that you normally see a little tighter whistle in the semi-finals.  This was called more like a championship game where the officials 'let them play'.  Observers may have noticed several times the officials pulled players aside and talked the them which was exactly, according to some players I spoke with post game, the officials told them up front and during the game that this was how they were going to make the calls.  And, that the officials were going to talk to the players rather than get 'whistle happy'.

I heard the same concerns expressed here from Whitewater and MIT fans (close to each team) that saw the Cabrini- IWU game.

A great game, great post season run; and, with a couple of bounces of the ball, the results could have gone the other way.  Proud of the Titans!  Proud to be a Titan.

[iwumichigander]

Congratulations and THANK YOU to the Titans for an exciting season.  To our seniors, you displayed leadership both on and off the court for which you should be very proud.  You can be sure your alumni are very proud.  To the coaching staff - terrific job!

And, to the moms, dads and grandparents we were fortunate to meet along the way - THANK YOU.   A really nice group of parents and relatives.

[iwu70]

Let us know about the Titan's celebrations.

So proud of both teams.  Great run, great season.

IWU70

[TitansIWU]

A huge factor in this game was how it was officiated.  The whistle was completely even on both sides, but the consensus from all of the D3 coaches I spoke to afterwards was that this was the loosest whistle they'd ever seen in a tournament game.  To say they "let 'em play" would be an enormous understatement.  The amount of contact (pushing/shoving/grabbing) they allowed, in my opinion, crossed the line.  One of the coaches called it "way outside acceptable parameters."  Again, while the whistle was even and fair, the game called that way favored Cabrini bigtime.  They might be the shorter of the two teams, but they play an incredibly physical, rugged style...much more physical that IWU. 

Officiating? (always an excuse) - if they called everything, the game would last 5 hours. They can't call everything so the officials do their best. A favoring fan always sees it to one sided in which its not. This is the way officiating should be compared to the grade school officials you get from the CCIW. Don't bring up bad officiating as an excuse ever again.

Typical Ourhouse comment, has sat at home after his team's loss and was locked and loaded to come on here and bash IWU in some way.

Q was perfectly clear officiating wasn't the problem. Hell, there was no problem... IWU played at Cabrini's level and vice versa in different ways. Last possession game that could have gone either way. Had Eliud's last second heave went in, we still would be talking about the loose officiating. Anyone who watched saw hacking from both teams on every shot in the first half and almost no calls. The announcers commented on it several times. After a shot when you see a player smashed onto the ground and there is no call, that is loose.

Ourhouse, did you even watch the game or were you just ready to pounce on anything, whether it made sense to say or not?

Q has the officiating correct.  I would add that you normally see a little tighter whistle in the semi-finals.  This was called more like a championship game where the officials 'let them play'.  Observers may have noticed several times the officials pulled players aside and talked the them which was exactly, according to some players I spoke with post game, the officials told them up front and during the game that this was how they were going to make the calls.  And, that the officials were going to talk to the players rather than get 'whistle happy'.

I heard the same concerns expressed here from Whitewater and MIT fans (close to each team) that saw the Cabrini- IWU game.

A great game, great post season run; and, with a couple of bounces of the ball, the results could have gone the other way.  Proud of the Titans!  Proud to be a Titan.

If what you are saying is accurate, which I am sure it is, why even have rules at all? Why not just let each team of officials make up the guidelines before each game as long as they "talk to the players?"

Sorry, but I just don't agree with that. There is a standardization for a reason, and I think it makes sense to at least try to adhere to it, from my computer screen with decent video, looked like they should have made some calls on both sides.

When a foul is committed, the team which was fouled gets a free throw, and in a three point game, it can affect the outcome of the game.

"Talking to the players" sounds like something from a game with 4 year olds where everyone also gets to score, and then they all get an apple juice and take naps after the game.

[mailsy]

TitanQ,

It was a pleasure meeting you down in Salem.  I certainly will be following your team and conference in the future.  It's a shame Cabrini lost, but it was one heck of a ride! 

Mailsy

[Pat Coleman]

I will ask again, did anyone have any success in watching the NCAA live video from Salem or Holland on an ipad2?  We had no trouble with the video from the colleges prior to the NCAA
feeds, we even paid the $3.99 for Div 1 hoping that would provide the background programs needed to watch any NCAA.
We might just have a flawed ipad2 and will visit Best Buy tomorrow.

I did not try as I don't have an iPad. But if the NCAA video used flash then you would not be able to watch it.

[Pat Coleman]

A huge factor in this game was how it was officiated.  The whistle was completely even on both sides, but the consensus from all of the D3 coaches I spoke to afterwards was that this was the loosest whistle they'd ever seen in a tournament game.  To say they "let 'em play" would be an enormous understatement.  The amount of contact (pushing/shoving/grabbing) they allowed, in my opinion, crossed the line.  One of the coaches called it "way outside acceptable parameters."  Again, while the whistle was even and fair, the game called that way favored Cabrini bigtime.  They might be the shorter of the two teams, but they play an incredibly physical, rugged style...much more physical that IWU. 

Officiating? (always an excuse) - if they called everything, the game would last 5 hours. They can't call everything so the officials do their best. A favoring fan always sees it to one sided in which its not. This is the way officiating should be compared to the grade school officials you get from the CCIW. Don't bring up bad officiating as an excuse ever again.

Typical Ourhouse comment, has sat at home after his team's loss and was locked and loaded to come on here and bash IWU in some way.

Q was perfectly clear officiating wasn't the problem. Hell, there was no problem... IWU played at Cabrini's level and vice versa in different ways. Last possession game that could have gone either way. Had Eliud's last second heave went in, we still would be talking about the loose officiating. Anyone who watched saw hacking from both teams on every shot in the first half and almost no calls. The announcers commented on it several times. After a shot when you see a player smashed onto the ground and there is no call, that is loose.

Ourhouse, did you even watch the game or were you just ready to pounce on anything, whether it made sense to say or not?

Q has the officiating correct.  I would add that you normally see a little tighter whistle in the semi-finals.  This was called more like a championship game where the officials 'let them play'.  Observers may have noticed several times the officials pulled players aside and talked the them which was exactly, according to some players I spoke with post game, the officials told them up front and during the game that this was how they were going to make the calls.  And, that the officials were going to talk to the players rather than get 'whistle happy'.

I heard the same concerns expressed here from Whitewater and MIT fans (close to each team) that saw the Cabrini- IWU game.

A great game, great post season run; and, with a couple of bounces of the ball, the results could have gone the other way.  Proud of the Titans!  Proud to be a Titan.

If what you are saying is accurate, which I am sure it is, why even have rules at all? Why not just let each team of officials make up the guidelines before each game as long as they "talk to the players?"

Sorry, but I just don't agree with that. There is a standardization for a reason, and I think it makes sense to at least try to adhere to it, from my computer screen with decent video, looked like they should have made some calls on both sides.

When a foul is committed, the team which was fouled gets a free throw, and in a three point game, it can affect the outcome of the game.

"Talking to the players" sounds like something from a game with 4 year olds where everyone also gets to score, and then they all get an apple juice and take naps after the game.

One of the hallmarks of great tournament teams and coaches is the ability to adjust to how the game is called in different parts of the country.

This time of year, it is often confusing to fans who don't realize there is a difference, but suffice it to say that any coach capable of leading a team to the Final Four knows there is often a difference and prepares his or her team for it.

[Gregory Sager]

Tremendous season by IWU! 

We had a saying when I played in the WIAC... "Just let us get in!"  All you need is a shot in the tournament, and in a league like the CCIW, even in a season where, on paper, it seems like the league might be down, the programs are run in such a way to peak at the right time.

All ya need is a chance and great things can happen.  Great run by IWU and the other CCIW schools this season!

The league wasn't simply down "on paper." It was down on the hardwood, too. The CCIW finished 59-40 (.596) against teams from outside the circuit, the first time in fourteen years that the league has fallen short of the .600 mark. (That 59-40 record includes D3 tourney games.) Yes, the fact that one CCIW team reached the Final Four and two others reached the Sweet Sixteen redeems that somewhat, but not entirely. Ultimately, the cumulative non-con record of a league is its best benchmark for measuring its success (or lack thereof), even more so than the tournament, because: a) it's a much, much larger database for measuring-stick purposes; and b) it reflects the entire league, top to bottom, rather than merely the team(s) at the top that make(s) the dance. We can't get away from the truth that the CCIW was very soft in the middle, and dreadful at the bottom -- a bottom which includes what is, by record at least, the worst CCIW team in the 66-year history of the league. Heck, even our champion was only a pedestrian 8-6 in non-con play.

Having said all that, I think that you're absolutely right, PS. Even a down CCIW is better than most other leagues. One thing that I think really prepared the three tourney-bound CCIW teams for their respective March runs was the fact that the four teams at the top of the league didn't have much space between them in terms of ability, and their games against each other, with a few exceptions here and there (the two Wheaton vs. Augie games, and a couple of the CCIW tourney contests), were thus tight and competitive. Even though the bottom four didn't put up much of a collective fight against the top four, except for a stray game here or there, the top four honed each other's games sufficiently to prepare them for March. (Another reason for the CCIW's tourney success, which Bob hinted at a few weeks ago, was the fact that there really didn't seem to be any unbeatable juggernauts on the national scene this year that were head-and-shoulders above everybody else.)

One thing that interests me is how third-place Illinois Wesleyan was able to separate itself in the end from the two teams that finished above it in the CCIW this year. Each game's different, of course, and Wheaton's path was completely different than those of IWU and NCC. But, given how there was a small but noticeable difference over the course of the CCIW season and CCIW tourney between NCC and Wheaton on the one hand and IWU and Augie on the other, something has to account for the fact that IWU managed to get two rounds deeper than either NCC or Wheaton -- and in the process beat handily the Wittenberg team that had knocked out North Central the day before. I think that that something is Ron Rose. This is twice now over the past three years that he's taken a team deep into the tourney that I really didn't envision would get as far as it did. I think that he's developed a tangible ability to squeeze something out of his team in March that didn't appear to be there before, and that's a pretty special ability for a head coach. I've come to be really impressed by Ron Rose.

(And, now that I've praised Rose, I suppose that I'm even less likely to ever share a beer with OurHouse than Mark is. )

A great run for sure in a "down" season. While the CCIW's record against other leagues might have been a little down this season, overall, it seems like the CCIW ultimately enjoyed a pretty successful season.

Millikin, yes, is pitiful.
North Park was highly disappointing given their 2 previous D1 players.
Elmhurst was improved and proved a tough out in several games.
Carthage failed to live up to expectations and relied too heavily on one player (many picked them to at least make the CCIW tourney).
Augie, the nation's pre-season #1 team had their starting center quit and then basically fell apart despite having several players who it seemed, at least collectively, should have been able to replace him.
Wheaton, who probably wasn't given enough credit early played great and advanced to the Final 16.
North Central, lightly regarded mainly due to problems concerning their depth despite being picked for 2nd in the coaches poll, won BOTH the regular season AND conference tournament titles AND also advanced to the Final 16.
IWU, despite finishing 3rd in the league and losing their conference tourney semi-final, peaked at the exact right time, won 4 national tourney games, and made the Final Four!

Overall, then, it seems like the CCIW as a whole, may have been down a bit this year, but with 3 teams in the Final 16 and Augie still a dangerous team, not down as much as might be perceived, 

No, it was still a down year. You measure a league from top to bottom, and from top to bottom the CCIW was (by its own standards) no great shakes this season. As I said, this is the first time in fourteen seasons that we weren't a .600 league. The more you look at the list you posted above -- and realize that, for instance, even though you didn't say anything bad about Elmhurst, the Bluejays still only went 6-5 in non-con play -- the more you can see what an array of disappointments there were. Sure, every CCIW game has a winner and a loser, so some teams will have overall disappointing years. But we're talking about a season in which one team went 1-10 in non-con play, another went 4-7, two others barely broke even at 6-5, and a fifth went 8-6.

[Titan Q]

One thing that interests me is how third-place Illinois Wesleyan was able to separate itself in the end from the two teams that finished above it in the CCIW this year. Each game's different, of course, and Wheaton's path was completely different than those of IWU and NCC. But, given how there was a small but noticeable difference over the course of the CCIW season and CCIW tourney between NCC and Wheaton on the one hand and IWU and Augie on the other, something has to account for the fact that IWU managed to get two rounds deeper than either NCC or Wheaton -- and in the process beat handily the Wittenberg team that had knocked out North Central the day before. I think that that something is Ron Rose. This is twice now over the past three years that he's taken a team deep into the tourney that I really didn't envision would get as far as it did. I think that he's developed a tangible ability to squeeze something out of his team in March that didn't appear to be there before, and that's a pretty special ability for a head coach. I've come to be really impressed by Ron Rose.

IWU had 3 guys in particular really step up and play significantly better in the NCAA tournament than during the CCIW season - seniors John Koschnitzky and Stephen Rudnicki, and sophomore Victor Davis. 

The Titans played 3 CCIW games without starting small forward John Koschnitzky and lost 2 of them - @ Wheaton in a pretty tight game and @ Augustana in OT.  In the two games before those 3 Koschnitzky missed - when he was playing through severe back pain - he scored a total a zero points in 43 minutes @ Elmhurst and vs Millikin. With a healthy Koschnitzky maybe IWU wins one of those two tough road games, who knows (replacement Eric Dortch just was not a scorer at all this year so IWU was just not as good when Koschnitzky was out or playing hurt). 

Koschnitzky during the NCAA tournament:

vs UW-Stevens Point: 15 pts
@ Hope: 19 pts, 8 reb
@ Wooster: 9 pts, 8 reb
vs Wittenberg: 10 pts, 3 reb
vs Cabrini: 11 pts, 4 reb

Stephen Rudnicki was outstanding for the Titans during the tournament run.  He played with a tremendous amount of confidence and poise.  Rudnicki during the tourney:

vs UW-Stevens Point: 14 pts, 3 reb, 2 assists
@ Hope: 16 pts, 3 reb, 3 assists
@ Wooster: 13 pts, 2 reb, 2 assits
vs Wittenberg: 9 pts, 4 assists
vs Cabrini: 11 pts, 3 reb, 4 assists

And sophomore Victor Davis really turned a corner in the NCAA tournament...

vs UW-Stevens Point: 11 pts, 3 reb
@ Hope: 17 pts, 7 reb
@ Wooster: 18 pts, 3 reb
vs Wittenberg: 8 pts, 4 reb
vs Cabrini: 14 pts, 5 reb

Davis just started playing with a tremendous amount of confidence and became a really tough matchup for opponents.

These 3 guys were just simply different players in the NCAA tournament than they were for most of the CCIW season.  During the CCIW season, North Central was clearly better than IWU, and Wheaton was a tad better, but once Koschnitzky, Rudnicki, and Davis started playing like they did in the tournament, I think it actually made IWU the best of the CCIW's top 3.  In the tournament, IWU was a very talented, deep, and balanced team.

And I agree that Ron Rose has a lot to do with what the Titans just did in March.  Thinking about all 5 NCAA tournament games in total, I was really struck by how well the Titans played as a team, and how much discipline and composure they demonstrated on the floor.  Those are the kinds of things that, in my opinion, are a reflection of coaching.  Also, there were some really impressive X's and O's type schemes and adjustments made by Rose in each of those 5 games that were big factors in IWU's success.

[Titan Q]

Purely based on returners, my first preseason 2012-13 poll would look like this...

1. North Central
2. Illinois Wesleyan (assumes Brady Zimmer is 100% healthy and ready to start at the 2)
3. Carthage
4. Wheaton (assumes Aaron Garriott is returning)
5. Augustana
6. North Park
7. Elmhurst
8. Millikin


As it see it, there is a lot of separation right now between NCC and whoever is #2...and #2 through #5 is basically just a toss-up.  IWU, Carthage, Augustana, and Wheaton have a lot a really good parts returning, but also some significant questions to answer in the off-season. 

I'm confident the CCIW will have 5 solid teams next year when the ball is tipped in mid-November.  Whether the league gets back to a great cumulative non-conference mark will depend in large part on what happens at North Park, Elmhurst, and Millikin.  With studs Mark Holmes and Mike Gabriel returning, it would seem to me that NPU is positioned to improve quite a bit, and with the right additions, maybe even knock on the top 4 door.

Of course, it's March 2012...so none of this really means very much.  But oh well.

[Gregory Sager]

Whether the league gets back to a great cumulative non-conference mark will depend in large part on what happens at North Park, Elmhurst, and Millikin.  With studs Mark Holmes and Mike Gabriel returning, it would seem to me that NPU is positioned to improve quite a bit, and with the right additions, maybe even knock on the top 4 door.

It takes a lot more than two studs to make a basketball team, and, as I said last month, NPU's cupboard is pretty close to bare once you get past Holmes and Gabriel. The Vikings are going to need a roster overhaul in order to compete next season; i.e., the coaches need to bring in a whole bunch of newbies who can play at the CCIW varsity level right away.

[Titan Q]

TitanQ,

It was a pleasure meeting you down in Salem.  I certainly will be following your team and conference in the future.  It's a shame Cabrini lost, but it was one heck of a ride! 

Mailsy

Same here, Mailsy.  It was great to meet you!

[Titan Q]

Here is the full replay of the IWU/Cabrini game...

http://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2012-03-17/diii-mbb-semi-illinoiswes-cabrini-fullreplay


Just in case any IWU fans want to relive the heartbreak.

[iwu70]

Pretty much agree with Q's early assessment of teams for next year.  Given what NCC has coming back, they are clearly the favorite and I can assure you I won't be under-estimating them again.  I learned my lesson.  Titans have alot of good pieces coming back with some real good talent coming up from the JV, as you have heard me opine on earlier.  Agree with Q as well about the great late-season performances of Davis, Rudnicki and Kman.  Really felt Zimmer put on some brave performances, showed real toughness in getting through, making good contributions even with the bad foot.  Eliud was Eliud -- playing tough, playing hard always.  Loved following this group and cheering them on all season.  Congrats guys!

Congrats again to Coach Rose and all the team.  Look forward to the celebrations later this week.

On the women's side, what can we say -- a great run, a national championship season, a real breakthrough.  Congrats to Coach Smith and esp. Olivia Lett on all the honors and awards.  Much deserved.  Very nice interviews of Dennie Bridges, Coach Smith, Melissa Gardner and Olivia Lett on the WJBC website, if you want to relive the glory!  Much better than revisiting the heartbreak. 

Proud of both teams, no matter.

Q and Greg, thanks for all the good analysis and information provided all year on the board. . . . and to all the other chatsters as well.  Ypsi, let's keep keeping these guys honest, providing some unorthodox views, even if we are accused of being a "PR problem" for folks at certain points.  Nothing at all wrong with free speech and countervailing opinions, right?  I sure was wrong about NCC this year, but mended my ways late in the season.  Glad to say I was pretty much on target about a few other things, including the possible successes of the IWU men, especially in the tourney, and about some of my views, suggestions re: the IWU women and their chances (though I'm pretty sure Ron Rose and Mia Smith could care less what we think or say on this board!).  All those IWU whiners, myself included, are happy tonight, knowing that another Walnut and Bronze is coming for a permanent visit to the Shirk Center Lobby.  Well done, women of IWU . . . and, as Olivia Lett said in one of the interviews about hanging a national championship banner in the rafters of Shirk, "right up there with the men."  Amen to that.

IWU70