MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

These were the records of the top 3 CCIW teams heading into the NCAA tournament...

North Central: 20-7, 12-2 CCIW
Wheaton: 21-6, 11-3 CCIW
Illinois Wesleyan: 19-7, 10-4 CCIW


It's not like there was an enormous gap between these 4 teams heading into the NCAA tournament when you consider the full regular season body of work.

[AndOne]

I don't have as much of an issue with Cabrini.   

Wheaton beat IWU 2 out of 3, North Central beat IWU 2 out of 2.  Its seems like a lot of the regular season was dismissed in favor of a 3 weekend run of good play.

Don't get me wrong, I've actually had IWU and the other 2 CCIW's very high all season, but ranking IWU ahead of Wheaton and NCC just doesn't feel right to me.

I guess I'll ask this, where do you rank Cabrini or IWU if they don't get out of round 2?

During the regular season, yes, Wheaton and NCC played better than IWU.  But in the sectionals, North Central lost to Wittenberg, and then the next night, on the same neutral floor, IWU pounded Wittenberg.  IWU played better than NCC at the end of the season...when things matter most, right?

I think the voters treat the final poll as a snapshot of who they feel the best 25 teams were at the end of the season.

And of course you realize the reason IWU "pounded" Whittenberg was that NCC softened the Tigers up the previous night and made them expend a ton of energy so they had little left the next night, right?   

[Titan Q]

I don't have as much of an issue with Cabrini.   

Wheaton beat IWU 2 out of 3, North Central beat IWU 2 out of 2.  Its seems like a lot of the regular season was dismissed in favor of a 3 weekend run of good play.

Don't get me wrong, I've actually had IWU and the other 2 CCIW's very high all season, but ranking IWU ahead of Wheaton and NCC just doesn't feel right to me.

I guess I'll ask this, where do you rank Cabrini or IWU if they don't get out of round 2?

During the regular season, yes, Wheaton and NCC played better than IWU.  But in the sectionals, North Central lost to Wittenberg, and then the next night, on the same neutral floor, IWU pounded Wittenberg.  IWU played better than NCC at the end of the season...when things matter most, right?

I think the voters treat the final poll as a snapshot of who they feel the best 25 teams were at the end of the season.

And of course you realize the reason IWU "pounded" Whittenberg was that NCC softened the Tigers up the previous night and made them expend a ton of energy so they had little left the next night, right?   

Sounds like a good story...I'd go with it.

[AndOne]

These were the records of the top 3 CCIW teams heading into the NCAA tournament...

North Central: 20-7, 12-2 CCIW
Wheaton: 21-6, 11-3 CCIW
Illinois Wesleyan: 19-7, 10-4 CCIW


It's not like there was an enormous gap between these 4 teams heading into the NCAA tournament when you consider the full regular season body of work.

Now comes the English professor who calls on TQ and asks the question. "What is your definition of enormous?"

After all, in a combined 5 games with Wheaton and North Central, Wesleyan was 1-2 against Wheaton and 0-2 against North Central for a total record of 1-4. Thats a winning percentage of only .200

If a team plays .200 ball, it would seem there would be an "enormous" difference between that team and the top of the pile. 

But, rather than argue Wesleyan's final ranking lets say if Wesleyan is the 3rd best team in the country, then it could be argued that Wheaton and North Central deserved a better fate. 

[Titan Q]

These were the records of the top 3 CCIW teams heading into the NCAA tournament...

North Central: 20-7, 12-2 CCIW
Wheaton: 21-6, 11-3 CCIW
Illinois Wesleyan: 19-7, 10-4 CCIW


It's not like there was an enormous gap between these 4 teams heading into the NCAA tournament when you consider the full regular season body of work.

Now comes the English professor who calls on TQ and asks the question. "What is your definition of enormous?"

After all, in a combined 5 games with Wheaton and North Central, Wesleyan was 1-2 against Wheaton and 0-2 against North Central for a total record of 1-4. Thats a winning percentage of only .200

If a team plays .200 ball, it would seem there would be an "enormous" difference between that team and the top of the pile. 

But, rather than argue Wesleyan's final ranking lets say if Wesleyan is the 3rd best team in the country, then it could be argued that Wheaton and North Central deserved a better fate. 

Right...but when you consider the "full regular season body of work" heading in the tournament (non-conf included), there was not a ton of separation there in terms of pre-NCAA tournament Top 25 resumes.  Clearly NCC and Wheaton were ahead of IWU at that point, but not by a big margin.

[AndOne]

You have to treat it as the best teams in the country now... there is nothing left to play with.

That being said... some teams were ranked WAY too high.

Mr. McHugh,

1. Are you then confirming that the majority of the season doesn't mean much in the scheme of things when it comes to the final rankings?

2. I would be very interested in your opinion as to which teams were ranked WAY too high. I'll bet several others would also appreciate your insight.

3. If indeed some teams were ranked WAY to high, might it be time to replace some of the members of the committee that does the voting? 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The season does have weight to the Top 25... and thus why some teams are far too high. I am not going to mention some of my teams, right now, but if you listened to Hoopsville you will at least get a sense of what teams I thought shouldn't have even gotten votes. You will also get a sense of why I think some teams should be listen high in the Top 25.

The simple answer is this... just because a team is in the Final Four, Elite 8, Sweet 16, Round of 32, tournament all-together, does not mean they are a Top 25 team. Someone voted for Castleton State as their 25th team... tell me why they should have gotten a vote? Same goes for Rose-Hulman.

You can probably figure the team(s) that I am frustrated about by taking a close look at the poll and listening to my rant at the end of Hoopsville.

[AndOne]

That'll do. Thanks

[Mr. Ypsi]

These were the records of the top 3 CCIW teams heading into the NCAA tournament...

North Central: 20-7, 12-2 CCIW
Wheaton: 21-6, 11-3 CCIW
Illinois Wesleyan: 19-7, 10-4 CCIW


It's not like there was an enormous gap between these 4 teams heading into the NCAA tournament when you consider the full regular season body of work.

Now comes the English professor who calls on TQ and asks the question. "What is your definition of enormous?"

After all, in a combined 5 games with Wheaton and North Central, Wesleyan was 1-2 against Wheaton and 0-2 against North Central for a total record of 1-4. Thats a winning percentage of only .200

If a team plays .200 ball, it would seem there would be an "enormous" difference between that team and the top of the pile. 

But, rather than argue Wesleyan's final ranking lets say if Wesleyan is the 3rd best team in the country, then it could be argued that Wheaton and North Central deserved a better fate. 

UWSP was 2-0 vs. the National Champions - does that mean that they should be ranked HIGHER than #1?!

The tourney does (and should) weigh higher than the regular season in the final rankings.  NOT that the regular season is by any means irrelevant (on my PP ballot, I had MIT #3 and IWU #4, crediting their incredible regular season).  But a poll is not just a referendum on the total season (I had UWSP #22, because they were a mess once Ty Tillema was injured; actually I don't think they were anymore even top 25, but I wanted to give them some season credit), it is a snapshot also of where they are NOW.  AT THIS TIME the Titans are the best team in the CCIW (NCC lost to Witt; IWU destroyed Witt).  FWIW, I had Wheaton #11 and NCC #13 on my PP ballot.

[Pat Coleman]

I don't have as much of an issue with Cabrini.   

Wheaton beat IWU 2 out of 3, North Central beat IWU 2 out of 2.  Its seems like a lot of the regular season was dismissed in favor of a 3 weekend run of good play.

This is also how we award a national champion.

[AndOne]

These were the records of the top 3 CCIW teams heading into the NCAA tournament...

North Central: 20-7, 12-2 CCIW
Wheaton: 21-6, 11-3 CCIW
Illinois Wesleyan: 19-7, 10-4 CCIW


It's not like there was an enormous gap between these 4 teams heading into the NCAA tournament when you consider the full regular season body of work.

Now comes the English professor who calls on TQ and asks the question. "What is your definition of enormous?"

After all, in a combined 5 games with Wheaton and North Central, Wesleyan was 1-2 against Wheaton and 0-2 against North Central for a total record of 1-4. Thats a winning percentage of only .200

If a team plays .200 ball, it would seem there would be an "enormous" difference between that team and the top of the pile. 

But, rather than argue Wesleyan's final ranking lets say if Wesleyan is the 3rd best team in the country, then it could be argued that Wheaton and North Central deserved a better fate. 

UWSP was 2-0 vs. the National Champions - does that mean that they should be ranked HIGHER than #1?!

The tourney does (and should) weigh higher than the regular season in the final rankings.  NOT that the regular season is by any means irrelevant (on my PP ballot, I had MIT #3 and IWU #4, crediting their incredible regular season).  But a poll is not just a referendum on the total season (I had UWSP #22, because they were a mess once Ty Tillema was injured; actually I don't think they were anymore even top 25, but I wanted to give them some season credit), it is a snapshot also of where they are NOW.  AT THIS TIME the Titans are the best team in the CCIW (NCC lost to Witt; IWU destroyed Witt).  FWIW, I had Wheaton #11 and NCC #13 on my PP ballot.

So, in other words, you agree with me about Wheaton and North Central. 

[bopol]

Post season rankings overweigh the tournament; of that, I have no doubt.  But I agree with the basic ordering of the final rankings of the 3 CCIW teams (and Augie, since they recieved some votes).

IWU: 8-7 vs. Top 50 teams.  Other loss was at Ripon, which is probably a Top 100 team.
Wheaton: 7-6 vs. Top 50 teams.  Other loss was at Carthage, which is probably a Top 100 team.
NC: 7-4 vs. Top 50 teams, but 4 losses, at WI-Plateville (Top 100) and at Simpson, Albion and Aurora (not Top 100)
Augie: 4-6 vs. Top 50 teams and other loss at Elmhurst (probably not Top 100).

I'd take the final results in that order: IWU, Wheaton, NCU and Augie.  Fact is: NC played great their last 21 games (18-3 with a 7-3 record against Top 50) and that would have made them a Top 10 team if they hadn't played so poorly in late November and early December).

I don't think I'd place IWU in the Top 5 though.  I'd have to do a lot more work. 

Other basis for comparison:

Augiefan:
4. IWU
5. Wheaton
7. Augustana
19. NC

Massey:
6. Wheaton
7. IWU
16. NC
19. Augie

[izzy stradlin]

These were the records of the top 3 CCIW teams heading into the NCAA tournament...

North Central: 20-7, 12-2 CCIW
Wheaton: 21-6, 11-3 CCIW
Illinois Wesleyan: 19-7, 10-4 CCIW


It's not like there was an enormous gap between these 4 teams heading into the NCAA tournament when you consider the full regular season body of work.

Now comes the English professor who calls on TQ and asks the question. "What is your definition of enormous?"

After all, in a combined 5 games with Wheaton and North Central, Wesleyan was 1-2 against Wheaton and 0-2 against North Central for a total record of 1-4. Thats a winning percentage of only .200

If a team plays .200 ball, it would seem there would be an "enormous" difference between that team and the top of the pile. 

But, rather than argue Wesleyan's final ranking lets say if Wesleyan is the 3rd best team in the country, then it could be argued that Wheaton and North Central deserved a better fate. 

UWSP was 2-0 vs. the National Champions - does that mean that they should be ranked HIGHER than #1?!

The tourney does (and should) weigh higher than the regular season in the final rankings.  NOT that the regular season is by any means irrelevant (on my PP ballot, I had MIT #3 and IWU #4, crediting their incredible regular season).  But a poll is not just a referendum on the total season (I had UWSP #22, because they were a mess once Ty Tillema was injured; actually I don't think they were anymore even top 25, but I wanted to give them some season credit), it is a snapshot also of where they are NOW.  AT THIS TIME the Titans are the best team in the CCIW (NCC lost to Witt; IWU destroyed Witt).  FWIW, I had Wheaton #11 and NCC #13 on my PP ballot.

That's pretty unfair to CCIW Champion North Central.  You are conveniently shrinking the sample size to whatever makes your team look better (14 games versus 2).  The best teams don't always play the best over a short 40 minutes or any one game in any sport.  This doesn't mean the opponent is better, it just means they played better for one game.   

[Mr. Ypsi]

These were the records of the top 3 CCIW teams heading into the NCAA tournament...

North Central: 20-7, 12-2 CCIW
Wheaton: 21-6, 11-3 CCIW
Illinois Wesleyan: 19-7, 10-4 CCIW


It's not like there was an enormous gap between these 4 teams heading into the NCAA tournament when you consider the full regular season body of work.

Now comes the English professor who calls on TQ and asks the question. "What is your definition of enormous?"

After all, in a combined 5 games with Wheaton and North Central, Wesleyan was 1-2 against Wheaton and 0-2 against North Central for a total record of 1-4. Thats a winning percentage of only .200

If a team plays .200 ball, it would seem there would be an "enormous" difference between that team and the top of the pile. 

But, rather than argue Wesleyan's final ranking lets say if Wesleyan is the 3rd best team in the country, then it could be argued that Wheaton and North Central deserved a better fate. 

UWSP was 2-0 vs. the National Champions - does that mean that they should be ranked HIGHER than #1?!

The tourney does (and should) weigh higher than the regular season in the final rankings.  NOT that the regular season is by any means irrelevant (on my PP ballot, I had MIT #3 and IWU #4, crediting their incredible regular season).  But a poll is not just a referendum on the total season (I had UWSP #22, because they were a mess once Ty Tillema was injured; actually I don't think they were anymore even top 25, but I wanted to give them some season credit), it is a snapshot also of where they are NOW.  AT THIS TIME the Titans are the best team in the CCIW (NCC lost to Witt; IWU destroyed Witt).  FWIW, I had Wheaton #11 and NCC #13 on my PP ballot.

That's pretty unfair to CCIW Champion North Central.  You are conveniently shrinking the sample size to whatever makes your team look better (14 games versus 2).  The best teams don't always play the best over a short 40 minutes or any one game in any sport.  This doesn't mean the opponent is better, it just means they played better for one game.

I'm not sure I understand your point.  NCC keeps their conference trophy.  IWU went to Salem; NCC didn't.  No matter how many games you play, there is no ultimate resolution (IF only they had played ONE more game!)  You lost to Witt; we didn't.

My final ballot (IMHO): IWU 4, Wheaton 11, NCC 13.

NCC still retains the CCIW trophy!

[AndOne]

I'm not sure I understand your point.  NCC keeps their conference trophy.  IWU went to Salem; NCC didn't.  No matter how many games you play, there is no ultimate resolution (IF only they had played ONE more game!)  You lost to Witt; we didn't.

My final ballot (IMHO): IWU 4, Wheaton 11, NCC 13.

NCC still retains the CCIW trophy!

Yes, BOTH of them.