MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

I hope nobody, IWU fan or not, thinks I'm trying to disparage Wesleyan's accomplishment.
What I'm saying is that if IWU is #3, NCC isn't that far behind them. Thats all.

* NCC's losses to Albion, Simpson, and Scranton can be directly attributed to the fact a starter wasn't able to even dress for the game.
* NC won both the regular season and CCIW tourney championships. Many pretty knowledgeable people would have bet big bucks that this wasn't possible. Lots of people questioned whether the Cardinals were even capable of finishing 2nd, the position they were picked for in the Coaches poll.
* After being 4-5, again, largely due to injury, NCC went 18-3 over their last 21 games. The 3 losses were by a combined 8 points!
* NCC lost 8 games this year. So did IWU.
* NCC won 22 games. IWU won 23.
* In head to head competition, NCC swept IWU by an average of 10 points.

IWU had a great season, but so did NCC. I do not have a problem with IWU's final ranking. What I AM saying is that there is NOT much separation between the 2 teams. I think the main difference was IWU got hot at the right time and stayed in that condition a little longer.

No less of an IWU fan than Mr. Ypsi said he had IWU #4, WC #11, and NCC #13.
I'd say IWU-3 (they'd take MIT), WC-11, NCC-13. 

[Dennis_Prikkel]

i always have an issue with IWU.

I agree that their lackluster performance against the top teams in the league - losing 4 out 5 was not taken into consideration by a bunch of post=season voters.

That's one of the reasons post-season polls are WORTHLESS.

And did Augustana not prove the same about pre-season polls?

Amen and Amen


The first baseball poll came out and Carthage was ranked without playing a game!

I think all too often the person or organization conducting the poll puts too much faith in the people that are asked to vote in the poll that they are actually going to do their homework.

This latest D3hoops poll is living proof - a bunch of guys/gals who just looked at the national tournament.  Indefensible.  And it gives credence to those who doubt the worthiness of anything coming out of D3 sports - other than these chat blogs.

Wesleyan played extremely well in the tournament, granted - but who to stay the Titan don't lay an egg once again if they had to face North Central or Wheaton.  80% of the time during the season and conference tournament they lost to those two teams.

[blue_jays]

I'd like to inject a break into this pointless poll squabble to give Wheaton's Tim McCrary his due. Even though it's been easy to take his performance for granted, he had a remarkable 4 year run with one of the gaudiest career stat lines in the history of Division III. If he hadn't played in same time period as Raymond and Stevie D, he would be a 3-time CCIW POY instead of one-time. Just a super impressive PF with some of the most polished moves and passing you'll ever see from that position. I know IWU has been getting all the pub on this board in recent weeks, but it will be quite awhile until we see another Tim McCrary.

[Titan Q]

I'd like to inject a break into this pointless poll squabble to give Wheaton's Tim McCrary his due. Even though it's been easy to take his performance for granted, he had a remarkable 4 year run with one of the gaudiest career stat lines in the history of Division III. If he hadn't played in same time period as Raymond and Stevie D, he would be a 3-time CCIW POY instead of one-time. Just a super impressive PF with some of the most polished moves and passing you'll ever see from that position. I know IWU has been getting all the pub on this board in recent weeks, but it will be quite awhile until we see another Tim McCrary.

Tim McCrary will go down as one of the great players in the history of the CCIW.

[AndOne]

I'd like to inject a break into this pointless poll squabble to give Wheaton's Tim McCrary his due. Even though it's been easy to take his performance for granted, he had a remarkable 4 year run with one of the gaudiest career stat lines in the history of Division III. If he hadn't played in same time period as Raymond and Stevie D, he would be a 3-time CCIW POY instead of one-time. Just a super impressive PF with some of the most polished moves and passing you'll ever see from that position. I know IWU has been getting all the pub on this board in recent weeks, but it will be quite awhile until we see another Tim McCrary.

Tim McCrary will go down as one of the great players in the history of the CCIW.

True, true, and true. 

[bopol]

i always have an issue with IWU.

I agree that their lackluster performance against the top teams in the league - losing 4 out 5 was not taken into consideration by a bunch of post=season voters.

That's one of the reasons post-season polls are WORTHLESS.

And did Augustana not prove the same about pre-season polls?

Amen and Amen


The first baseball poll came out and Carthage was ranked without playing a game!

I think all too often the person or organization conducting the poll puts too much faith in the people that are asked to vote in the poll that they are actually going to do their homework.

This latest D3hoops poll is living proof - a bunch of guys/gals who just looked at the national tournament.  Indefensible.  And it gives credence to those who doubt the worthiness of anything coming out of D3 sports - other than these chat blogs.

Wesleyan played extremely well in the tournament, granted - but who to stay the Titan don't lay an egg once again if they had to face North Central or Wheaton.  80% of the time during the season and conference tournament they lost to those two teams.

You act as if this isn't true of all college sports polls.  It's not like the D3Hoops poll does any better or any worse than the AP, UPI, USAToday, etc.  They all a) overweight the postseason, b) don't ever take fresh looks at the whole picture but rely totally on where things were a week ago and c) never move teams down until they lose.

And Carthage rules D3Baseball.

IMHO, they should do a preseason poll and then look again after 5-6 weeks, not every week (all polls) and then go weekly.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

As a Top 25 voter... it frustrates me that you think many of us don't take it seriously. I will agree I had frustrations with the poll... but many people's assumptions on the job of doing a poll are off-base.

If you could only imagine the work it takes to do a Top 25 each week - doing our homework, etc. - will astound you. Now, take that work and add it to your already busy schedule, in my case covering Division III basketball, doing a twice-weekly show, having a family, and working a 40+ hour a week job... and you will realize it isn't easy.

That doesn't mean I shy away at the work... heck, half of my trip home from Salem was debating my Top 25... and while I usually finish it up on Sunday nights, I brought it to work with me yesterday because of how much debate I had going on. I still could redo my Top 25 and be working on it now - but will never be satisfied with my final poll.

It is easy to take shots at polls from afar.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

As a Top 25 voter... it frustrates me that you think many of us don't take it seriously. I will agree I had frustrations with the poll... but many people's assumptions on the job of doing a poll are off-base.

If you could only imagine the work it takes to do a Top 25 each week - doing our homework, etc. - will astound you. Now, take that work and add it to your already busy schedule, in my case covering Division III basketball, doing a twice-weekly show, having a family, and working a 40+ hour a week job... and you will realize it isn't easy.

That doesn't mean I shy away at the work... heck, half of my trip home from Salem was debating my Top 25... and while I usually finish it up on Sunday nights, I brought it to work with me yesterday because of how much debate I had going on. I still could redo my Top 25 and be working on it now - but will never be satisfied with my final poll.

It is easy to take shots at polls from afar.

I'm not that "afar".

And good for you if you did your homework - its obvious that some did not.

Give IWU kudos for their great work in the tourney.

Third in their own league, third in the country - I think NOT.

dgp

[iwu70]

Agree totally on McCrary . . . a great player, a great career.  He had the most complete and polished game of any CCIW player I saw all year, no doubt.

Discussion on the poll is sorta fruitless.  Glad some of the voters take it so seriously and carefully.  We all know that many of us thought they got it right, then got it wrong, all year.  It is what it is -- just the views, opinions of those voters.  Good for them for providing it to us all each week for further review, debate. 

For as many years as I remember, the Final Four teams always ranked 1-4 at the end of the season.  Nothing terribly new about that.  During the season, WC and NCC outplayed IWU.  In the tourney, IWU outplayed, outlasted them, got hot at the right time, even with a very very tough draw, and also played better, got lucky at times.  Gotta have both to go far in the Dance.  Love my Titans and glad they are getting the much deserved pub now.  NCC and WC had great seasons, played very well and tough in the CCIW.  I'm sure NCC will be extremely tough to beat next year with virtually everyone coming back.  The other top teams, IWU included, will make them earn it again.   Let's hope the overall CCIW situation improves, especially for the bottom feeders.  I have little doubt that IWU would beat MIT. 

Looking forward to the end-of-season celebrations next week.  We have lots to celebrate in Green Weenie Land.  We don't need any poll to tell us that!!!

ISU gave Stanford everything it could handle last night, going down by 4 in OT on the left coast.  That ISU team, with everyone coming back, is going to be really really good again next year!  Big change in Redbird Land.

IWU70 

[pgkevin]

I don't have as much of an issue with Cabrini.   

Wheaton beat IWU 2 out of 3, North Central beat IWU 2 out of 2.  Its seems like a lot of the regular season was dismissed in favor of a 3 weekend run of good play.

This is also how we award a national champion.

This seems to sum it all up to me.  Everyone is arguing that the polls are placing too much emphasis on the 3 week tournament portion of the schedule, but as Pat states, thats how everyone decides their national champion (baseball, basketball, football).  Why should the polls released at the end of the season reflect any differently?

I have no problem with IWU ranked that highly.  They reached the Final 4.  North Central's ranking should not be based on their dominance over IWU, nor should it be ranked on their conference dominance.  There is a separate ranking for it, and I'm sure North Central has the plague/trophy(s) to commemorate that accomplishment.

We set up the tournament to see who the best team in the nation is.  That is why UWW is #1, Cabrini #2 and so on.  A team that lost in the Sweet 16 should in my estimation fall somewhere between #9 and #16.  The subjective nature of the argument comes from which of the 8 teams that lost in the Sweet 16 deserves the #9 spot and #10 spot and on down the line.

[pgkevin]

i always have an issue with IWU.

I agree that their lackluster performance against the top teams in the league - losing 4 out 5 was not taken into consideration by a bunch of post=season voters.

That's one of the reasons post-season polls are WORTHLESS.

And did Augustana not prove the same about pre-season polls?

Amen and Amen


The first baseball poll came out and Carthage was ranked without playing a game!

I think all too often the person or organization conducting the poll puts too much faith in the people that are asked to vote in the poll that they are actually going to do their homework.

This latest D3hoops poll is living proof - a bunch of guys/gals who just looked at the national tournament.  Indefensible.  And it gives credence to those who doubt the worthiness of anything coming out of D3 sports - other than these chat blogs.

Wesleyan played extremely well in the tournament, granted - but who to stay the Titan don't lay an egg once again if they had to face North Central or Wheaton.  80% of the time during the season and conference tournament they lost to those two teams.

You act as if this isn't true of all college sports polls.  It's not like the D3Hoops poll does any better or any worse than the AP, UPI, USAToday, etc.  They all a) overweight the postseason, b) don't ever take fresh looks at the whole picture but rely totally on where things were a week ago and c) never move teams down until they lose.

And Carthage rules D3Baseball.

IMHO, they should do a preseason poll and then look again after 5-6 weeks, not every week (all polls) and then go weekly.

Again, this concept seems to be a sticking point for many on this board.  Overweighting the postseason is exactly what should happen.  It is the postseason.  I know this is venturing out of the realm of D3, but the Bulls had a better record than both Dallas and Miami in the regular season.  They were both the Eastern Conference and Central Division champs.  They will have that on their resume.  But if a poll were conducted after the NBA Finals, of course they wouldn't finish in front of either of those teams, because when it truly mattered, the POST SEASON, both the Mavs and Heat accomplished more.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

For as many years as I remember, the Final Four teams always ranked 1-4 at the end of the season.  Nothing terribly new about that.

Actually... 2010 Eastern Mennonite was #4, 2008 Brandeis was #4, 2003 Trinity (TX) was #3... etc.

[pgkevin]

As a Top 25 voter... it frustrates me that you think many of us don't take it seriously. I will agree I had frustrations with the poll... but many people's assumptions on the job of doing a poll are off-base.

If you could only imagine the work it takes to do a Top 25 each week - doing our homework, etc. - will astound you. Now, take that work and add it to your already busy schedule, in my case covering Division III basketball, doing a twice-weekly show, having a family, and working a 40+ hour a week job... and you will realize it isn't easy.

That doesn't mean I shy away at the work... heck, half of my trip home from Salem was debating my Top 25... and while I usually finish it up on Sunday nights, I brought it to work with me yesterday because of how much debate I had going on. I still could redo my Top 25 and be working on it now - but will never be satisfied with my final poll.

It is easy to take shots at polls from afar.

I'm not that "afar".

And good for you if you did your homework - its obvious that some did not.

Give IWU kudos for their great work in the tourney.

Third in their own league, third in the country - I think NOT.

dgp

If you are not going to declare them 3rd in the country...then why even have a tournament?  Yes I understand there is luck involved in a one and done situation like the NCAA tourney, but does that take any credibility away from UWW as the champ?  If they were undefeated coming into the tournament or if they had 9-10 losses coming into the tournament...the fact that they won the tournament allows them that ranking.

Only my opinion of course, and I realize I've made several posts on it.  I'll let it go.  Thanks for indulging my rant.

[Pat Coleman]

i always have an issue with IWU.

I agree that their lackluster performance against the top teams in the league - losing 4 out 5 was not taken into consideration by a bunch of post=season voters.

That's one of the reasons post-season polls are WORTHLESS.

And did Augustana not prove the same about pre-season polls?

Amen and Amen


The first baseball poll came out and Carthage was ranked without playing a game!

I think all too often the person or organization conducting the poll puts too much faith in the people that are asked to vote in the poll that they are actually going to do their homework.

This latest D3hoops poll is living proof - a bunch of guys/gals who just looked at the national tournament.  Indefensible.

The same people voted all year. They don't forget the regular season.

If North Central were denied a chance to reach the Final Four by virtue of being matched up against a team too early in the tournament, then our voters would have reacted, as they did in some of the previous situations Dave cited. And our voters have definitely done that in the past. Here's an extreme example:

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2001-02/final

That team ranked No. 8 didn't even make the tournament, thanks to the NCAA committee. But our voters recognized the wrong.

The layout of the tournament has been more balanced the past few years. Yes, perhaps Cabrini benefited by Middlebury losing in front of them, but they made the Final Four, then won their semifinal, then were incredibly competitive in the title game. If they hadn't been competitive in the title game, you might have seen a result like our 2005 final poll:

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2004-05/final

York, the fourth team in that Final Four, finished No. 13.

Dennis -- yes, third in the league. But the voters take all 31 games into account, not just 14 conference games. And how you finish is important. All three CCIW teams finished pretty well, but if North Central were to be ranked above Wittenberg or Wooster, it would have to beat one of them. IWU clearly played better at the end of the year.

Heck, I saw them in the CCIW semis against Wheaton and I thought they looked pretty unimpressive. But they put it all together, didn't they?

[AndOne]

As a Top 25 voter... it frustrates me that you think many of us don't take it seriously. I will agree I had frustrations with the poll... but many people's assumptions on the job of doing a poll are off-base.

If you could only imagine the work it takes to do a Top 25 each week - doing our homework, etc. - will astound you. Now, take that work and add it to your already busy schedule, in my case covering Division III basketball, doing a twice-weekly show, having a family, and working a 40+ hour a week job... and you will realize it isn't easy.

That doesn't mean I shy away at the work... heck, half of my trip home from Salem was debating my Top 25... and while I usually finish it up on Sunday nights, I brought it to work with me yesterday because of how much debate I had going on. I still could redo my Top 25 and be working on it now - but will never be satisfied with my final poll.

It is easy to take shots at polls from afar.

Dave--

I agree, its wrong to issue a blanket condemnation of ALL Top 25 voters. I am sure the majority take it seriously,

However, you need to remember YOUR own words and actions before offering a blanket defense of ALL voters. I listened to Hoopsville last night after your suggestion I do so. I must say you launched a credible major rant toward the end of the show during which you seemed to profess the opinion that some of your fellow voters had their heads screwed on backwards when they submitted their ballots on the final Top 25. 

One thing I've observed about the polls is that reputation seems to play far too big of a roll, especially during the regular season. Once a team is highly ranked it often seems to take way to long for them to drop out of the Top 25 no matter how badly they play for how long. Conversely, teams who traditionally do not appear regularly, seem to almost have to stand on their heads to break into the Top 25 despite how well they're playing, and how long they've  been doing so.