MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Sometimes I look at one of those coaching dads, and I think to myself that "he means well" are the three most damning words in the English language. I mean, I know that fathers coach their kids' teams because they care about their sons (usually; I also recognize that some dads do it out of ego, or because they're on a power trip, or out of a sense of vicariously reliving their own youth via the next-best-thing aspect of competition found in coaching a team). But, sometimes, caring enough to get involved can be the worst thing in the world for your kid if you don't have the self-awareness, or the common sense, to act like a fair and responsible adult when you're coaching your kid's team.

[Pat Coleman]

Coach Stein and I are going to begin work on a book...

"On the Road with the Titans"


We'll need to consult with our attorney first though - there is some potentially controversial/sensitive material to cover.  Could get dicey.  Stay tuned.

Pass along my congratulations, please!

[NCF]

Sometimes I look at one of those coaching dads, and I think to myself that "he means well" are the three most damning words in the English language. I mean, I know that fathers coach their kids' teams because they care about their sons (usually; I also recognize that some dads do it out of ego, or because they're on a power trip, or out of a sense of vicariously reliving their own youth via the next-best-thing aspect of competition found in coaching a team). But, sometimes, caring enough to get involved can be the worst thing in the world for your kid if you don't have the self-awareness, or the common sense, to act like a fair and responsible adult when you're coaching your kid's team.

So True!

[blue_jays]

Greg, thanks for all the background on the NPU coaching situation.  Sure sounds like a very disruptive set of events, decisions.  Guess we just need to give NP more time to approach the level of MU futility.

No, we don't. I'll get my hands on some industrial-grade explosives and blow up the crackerbox myself before NPU loses 37 straight conference games.

But the whole point is that it won't come to that. And this is why I say that you need to look at the big picture, history-wise. The CCIW has been a basketball league since 1946-47, with sixty-six full seasons now in the books. Until this current Millikin losing streak, the longest losing streak through which any program had ever suffered in CCIW play was the 26-game streak of NCC's from 1979-81. That's less than two full seasons' worth of losses by current standards, and not much more than a season and a half by the 16-game conference schedule used by the CCIW at the time (since Carroll was still in the league at that point). Millikin has lost every single CCIW game it's played over the past two seasons, as well as the latter two-thirds of the CCIW season before that. Given the narrow 14-game-per-season parameter with which we're working, that is a truly astonishing streak.

One of our resident number-crunchers such as augie_superfan or KnightSlappy could probably do a better job of putting this into statistical language than I can, but breaking a 26-game streak, be it winning or losing, in a series of 14-game college basketball seasons, and then going on to set a new record that stands at 36 (and counting!) is akin to someone going out and running a three-minute mile, or a major leaguer hitting safely in 75 straight games. In other words, MU not only broke a record that had stood for a very, very long time, it did so within a very constrained parameter regarding season length (i.e., there were two off-seasons for the team to get better and thus be strong enough to win at least one league game), and it broke the record and kept going by an extension of over 38% of the old record! And it hasn't ended yet!

Do you see now why neither NPU nor anybody else is going to break that 36-game losing streak record?

Now I have to call out this absurd hyperbole, GS. A good number of teams have lost 36 games in a row in general, much less conference play. CalTech lost 207 in a row to D3 opponents for goodness sakes. The equivalency to a three-minute mile is ludicrous. No person in the recorded history of the world has come within 43 seconds of a three-minute mile (1999). To break that record is not physiologically possible for the human race unless they are strapped to a propulsive device.

[kiko]

If the 36-game in-conference skid in basketball is astonishing, then I'm not sure I want to see the adjective describing this:

North Park Vikings
Past Records

2011 (3-7, 0-7 CCIW)
2010 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2009 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2008 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2007 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2006 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2005 (3-7, 0-7 CCIW)
2004 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2003 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2002 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2001 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2000 (3-7, 1-6 CCIW)

Whether Millikin has bottomed out or not remains to be seen, and it is a noteworthy streak given how long the prior record stood.  But if any streak is the CCIW equivalent of the three-minute mile, it is either North Central's cross-country dominance or the Park's decade-plus and counting futility on the gridiron.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

hey kiko - this is a basketball board = take that football cr$p out of here = with the horse you rode in on.

dgp

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, thanks for all the background on the NPU coaching situation.  Sure sounds like a very disruptive set of events, decisions.  Guess we just need to give NP more time to approach the level of MU futility.

No, we don't. I'll get my hands on some industrial-grade explosives and blow up the crackerbox myself before NPU loses 37 straight conference games.

But the whole point is that it won't come to that. And this is why I say that you need to look at the big picture, history-wise. The CCIW has been a basketball league since 1946-47, with sixty-six full seasons now in the books. Until this current Millikin losing streak, the longest losing streak through which any program had ever suffered in CCIW play was the 26-game streak of NCC's from 1979-81. That's less than two full seasons' worth of losses by current standards, and not much more than a season and a half by the 16-game conference schedule used by the CCIW at the time (since Carroll was still in the league at that point). Millikin has lost every single CCIW game it's played over the past two seasons, as well as the latter two-thirds of the CCIW season before that. Given the narrow 14-game-per-season parameter with which we're working, that is a truly astonishing streak.

One of our resident number-crunchers such as augie_superfan or KnightSlappy could probably do a better job of putting this into statistical language than I can, but breaking a 26-game streak, be it winning or losing, in a series of 14-game college basketball seasons, and then going on to set a new record that stands at 36 (and counting!) is akin to someone going out and running a three-minute mile, or a major leaguer hitting safely in 75 straight games. In other words, MU not only broke a record that had stood for a very, very long time, it did so within a very constrained parameter regarding season length (i.e., there were two off-seasons for the team to get better and thus be strong enough to win at least one league game), and it broke the record and kept going by an extension of over 38% of the old record! And it hasn't ended yet!

Do you see now why neither NPU nor anybody else is going to break that 36-game losing streak record?

Now I have to call out this absurd hyperbole, GS.

As opposed to rational hyperbole?

A good number of teams have lost 36 games in a row in general, much less conference play. CalTech lost 207 in a row to D3 opponents for goodness sakes. The equivalency to a three-minute mile is ludicrous. No person in the recorded history of the world has come within 43 seconds of a three-minute mile (1999). To break that record is not physiologically possible for the human race unless they are strapped to a propulsive device.

Well, of course not. That's why it's called hyperbole.

Caltech is not a good comparison for Millikin or anybody else. Anyone with any familiarity with Caltech and its admissions policies -- or, to be more specific, anyone who's aware of the identity of the gatekeepers who determine which kids get into Caltech and which ones don't -- finds it easy to grasp why Caltech lost 207 consecutive games to D3 opponents and 310 straight SCIAC games. It's such a unique set of circumstances that Caltech is sui generis when it comes to losing streaks.

Compare like with like, blue_jays. If you're going to assess the likelihood of Millikin's dubious new record being broken, use the CCIW basketball record book to do so, as I have (or else find a league that has very close parallels to the CCIW in terms of the makeup of its schools).

If the 36-game in-conference skid in basketball is astonishing, then I'm not sure I want to see the adjective describing this:

North Park Vikings
Past Records

2011 (3-7, 0-7 CCIW)
2010 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2009 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2008 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2007 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2006 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2005 (3-7, 0-7 CCIW)
2004 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2003 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2002 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2001 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2000 (3-7, 1-6 CCIW)

Whether Millikin has bottomed out or not remains to be seen, and it is a noteworthy streak given how long the prior record stood.  But if any streak is the CCIW equivalent of the three-minute mile, it is either North Central's cross-country dominance or the Park's decade-plus and counting futility on the gridiron.

Same bit of advice goes to you, kiko. Compare like to like. Comparing across sports like this is an apples-and-oranges exercise if I've ever seen one (unless you're doing it tongue-in-cheek as I was with the three-minute-mile analogy). Football and basketball are very different sports -- different season lengths, different roster sizes, etc. Furthermore, as has been discussed in the CCIW football room on more than one occasion, there are structural and institutional reasons why NPU has been bad at football for so long (it goes back much, much further than the current 82-game CCIW losing streak) and why NPU almost certainly will always be subpar, at best, in football relative to the rest of the CCIW. In fact, the more you know about NPU's football history and the circumstances surrounding it, the less astonishing the current streak appears. It's not a reasonable comparison to MU's basketball losing streak, because, like Caltech in terms of SCIAC basketball, NPU in CCIW football is in a completely unique situation.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

NP FB - try four winning seasons since they adopted the sport as a junior college in 1934.  The 1941 team had a winning record, because Wright JC had to forfeit two wins over NP JC.  The 1958 and 1959 team played a schedule of ultimate puppies.  The 1968 team was NPC's last winning team.

dgp

[kiko]

hey kiko - this is a basketball board = take that football cr$p out of here = with the horse you rode in on.

dgp

NP FB - try four winning seasons since they adopted the sport as a junior college in 1934.  The 1941 team had a winning record, because Wright JC had to forfeit two wins over NP JC.  The 1958 and 1959 team played a schedule of ultimate puppies.  The 1968 team was NPC's last winning team.

dgp

Dennis, good to know that you are allowed to post about football on this basketball board but others are not.

[kiko]

If the 36-game in-conference skid in basketball is astonishing, then I'm not sure I want to see the adjective describing this:

North Park Vikings
Past Records

2011 (3-7, 0-7 CCIW)
2010 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2009 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2008 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2007 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2006 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2005 (3-7, 0-7 CCIW)
2004 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2003 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2002 (1-9, 0-7 CCIW)
2001 (2-8, 0-7 CCIW)
2000 (3-7, 1-6 CCIW)

Whether Millikin has bottomed out or not remains to be seen, and it is a noteworthy streak given how long the prior record stood.  But if any streak is the CCIW equivalent of the three-minute mile, it is either North Central's cross-country dominance or the Park's decade-plus and counting futility on the gridiron.

Same bit of advice goes to you, kiko. Compare like to like. Comparing across sports like this is an apples-and-oranges exercise if I've ever seen one (unless you're doing it tongue-in-cheek as I was with the three-minute-mile analogy). Football and basketball are very different sports -- different season lengths, different roster sizes, etc. Furthermore, as has been discussed in the CCIW football room on more than one occasion, there are structural and institutional reasons why NPU has been bad at football for so long (it goes back much, much further than the current 82-game CCIW losing streak) and why NPU almost certainly will always be subpar, at best, in football relative to the rest of the CCIW. In fact, the more you know about NPU's football history and the circumstances surrounding it, the less astonishing the current streak appears. It's not a reasonable comparison to MU's basketball losing streak, because, like Caltech in terms of SCIAC basketball, NPU in CCIW football is in a completely unique situation.

Whether something is considered like to like is in the eye of the beholder.  It is roughly as likely that a major D3 conference will experience (1) a team with a two-year winless streak in basketball as it is they will experience (2) a team with a four-year winless streak in football.  So, if you adjust for the norms it is a perfectly reasonable comparison.  I see several instances of streaks like Millikin's across the major conferences.  But, extenuating circumstances be what they may, there aren't many streaks like NPU football's.  My answer wasn't tongue-in-cheek but rather bemusement that you considered the former to be astonishing without considering the latter.  It's a fair comparison from my perspective; you are of course welcome to feel otherwise.

I would submit that the outlier is as much that the CCIW has not had this kind of a streak in so long as much as it is that Millikin has reached these depths now.  It is the flip side of the extended streak of years in which the CCIW has not produced an unbeaten champion.  Both are highly unusual among major conferences.

BTW, calling North Park 'subpar, at best, in football relative to the rest of the CCIW' requires a gallon or two of polish.  I am not rooting for the streak to continue, to be clear, as having eight competitive programs is in the conference's best interest.  Whatever unique circumstances have led to NPU's gridiron futility -- and I am not going to pretend to understand them to the same degree you do -- are just excuses on a go-forward basis.  The occasional win by North Park should not be too much to expect, and it is possible for a school to change its neighborhood in football.  North Central went through an extended lean period and was much closer to North Park's football program than it was to Wheaton's just a decade ago.  They found a way out of the wilderness. 

[Gregory Sager]

Whether something is considered like to like is in the eye of the beholder.

Not really. Are you denying that football and basketball have significant differences in terms of schedule length, roster size, demographics, etc.?

It is roughly as likely that a major D3 conference will experience (1) a team with a two-year winless streak in basketball as it is they will experience (2) a team with a four-year winless streak in football.  So, if you adjust for the norms it is a perfectly reasonable comparison.

I don't agree with that at all. You can't simply multiply a football schedule by two and say, "OK, I've accounted for the extra round-robin. Now we're talking about the same thing."

I see several instances of streaks like Millikin's across the major conferences.

Perhaps. I'd genuinely like to see them listed.

But, extenuating circumstances be what they may, there aren't many streaks like NPU football's.  My answer wasn't tongue-in-cheek but rather bemusement that you considered the former to be astonishing without considering the latter.  It's a fair comparison from my perspective; you are of course welcome to feel otherwise.

What makes you think that I didn't consider NPU's football streak in this conversation? As a matter of fact, I considered it in the sense that, if the conversation persisted, I was pretty sure that someone was going to bring up NPU football. You proved me right. I never considered it in the sense of a parallel to MU's current basketball woes, because, as I said, it isn't a parallel. It's apples and oranges.

I would submit that the outlier is as much that the CCIW has not had this kind of a streak in so long as much as it is that Millikin has reached these depths now.  It is the flip side of the extended streak of years in which the CCIW has not produced an unbeaten champion.  Both are highly unusual among major conferences.

I disagree. A flip side would be a winless basketball season, and the CCIW's had eight of those since Augie went undefeated. If you're looking for a flip side to MU's currrent streak, you'd be looking for a winning streak of 2 2/3rds seasons. You have to go back to Wheaton in the late '50s for that, and Dennis can better analyze that winning streak than any of us here (as well as tell us how it related to Wheaton being asked to leave the conference).

BTW, calling North Park 'subpar, at best, in football relative to the rest of the CCIW' requires a gallon or two of polish.

Read it again, kiko. I didn't call North Park "subpar, at best, in football relative to the rest of the CCIW." I said that North Park "almost certainly will always be subpar, at best, in football relative to the rest of the CCIW." Note the future tense. I allow for the return to the days when North Park could win a game or two, or in rare cases even three, CCIW games in a season.

I am not rooting for the streak to continue, to be clear, as having eight competitive programs is in the conference's best interest.  Whatever unique circumstances have led to NPU's gridiron futility -- and I am not going to pretend to understand them to the same degree you do -- are just excuses on a go-forward basis.

No, they're not excuses. They're explanations. If they were excuses, they could be remedied by curing whatever it is that's ailed North Park football since, well, forever -- with a better coach, perhaps, or maybe something else.

The occasional win by North Park should not be too much to expect, and it is possible for a school to change its neighborhood in football.  North Central went through an extended lean period and was much closer to North Park's football program than it was to Wheaton's just a decade ago.  They found a way out of the wilderness.

Not so. NPU is not NCC or Wheaton when it comes to football.

Look, I just gave a speech a few days ago about how we shouldn't be dwelling upon other sports here. And now I'm making a series of posts about a CCIW football team. I'll be happy to discuss this -- well, not happy to talk about NPU losing ,  but happy to break down the reasons behind the eternal woes of Vikings football, with you via PM, if you're really that interested in the topic. But, suffice it to say, there are structural, institutional, demographic, etc., issues at work here that make NPU's football problem an entirely different animal than MU's basketball woes, even accounting for the differences between the two sports.

[hopefan]

Winless in conference, 2011-12

CalTech
Franciscan
Millikin
Maranatha
UW Oshkosh
Principia

Of those 6, only Millikin was winless in 2010-11.. so there are no current streaks to match Millikin....

[Gregory Sager]

NPU's incoming freshmen to date:

Ryan Hyrn, 6'0, San Ramon, CA / California HS
Rodney Clarke, 5'11, Memphis, TN / St. Benedict of Auburndale
Craig Welch, 6'0, Grand Rapids, MI / Northpointe Christian
David Johansson, 6'1, Norrkoping, Sweden / Norrkoping BK
Per Magnus Muren, 6'3, Asker, Norway / Asker Aliens

This David Johansson isn't the same David Johansson who as a North Park freshman just finished eighth in the nation in the javelin toss at the D3 track & field championships in Claremont, CA this past week. He's from Sweden, too, but about one out of every thirty Swedes has the surname "Johansson", and I'll bet that a bunch of them are named "David'. He's also not the former lead singer of the New York Dolls who later took the stage name "Buster Poindexter" and sang the huge '80s dance-club hit "Hot Hot Hot".

[sac]

NPU's incoming freshmen to date:

Ryan Hyrn, 6'0, San Ramon, CA / California HS
Rodney Clarke, 5'11, Memphis, TN / St. Benedict of Auburndale
Craig Welch, 6'0, Grand Rapids, MI / Northpointe Christian
David Johansson, 6'1, Norrkoping, Sweden / Norrkoping BK
Per Magnus Muren, 6'3, Asker, Norway / Asker Aliens

This David Johansson isn't the same David Johansson who as a North Park freshman just finished eighth in the nation in the javelin toss at the D3 track & field championships in Claremont, CA this past week. He's from Sweden, too, but about one out of every thirty Swedes has the surname "Johansson", and I'll bet that a bunch of them are named "David'. He's also not the former lead singer of the New York Dolls who later took the stage name "Buster Poindexter" and sang the huge '80s dance-club hit "Hot Hot Hot".

Any athlete who's name can lead you down the path of 1980's pop stars will gain immediate entry into the Supersweetness Hall of Fame.


......and to think before reading Greg's description the two most interesting things on this list for me were a kid from Norway attending North Park, and the fact San Ramon, California residents couldn't think of a better name for their high school than 'California'.

[Gregory Sager]

Any athlete who's name can lead you down the path of 1980's pop stars will gain immediate entry into the Supersweetness Hall of Fame.

I'd like to think that Gregg Ashabi would agree with that, provided that wherever he is right now he's sober enough to log on to the Internet.

......and to think before reading Greg's description the two most interesting things on this list for me were a kid from Norway attending North Park,

Your fun fact for the day: Lots of Norwegians have attended North Park over the past twenty years. In fact, for a while there in the late '90s and early '00s, there were a lot more Norwegians than Swedes at NPU, due to the quirks of the school's marketing. There are still a number of Norwegians that attend North Park, including Sigurd "Siggy" Pryser and Markus Fodstad, who are prominent members of the NPU men's soccer team; Liz Berntsen, who runs on the women's cross-country and women's track & field teams; and Caroline Mjoenes, a goalkeeper on the women's soccer team.

If and when Per Magnus Muren actually shows up on campus and dons a basketball uniform, it will put NPU in what I'm pretty sure is a unique position among four-year schools in the U.S. in that it will have had Norwegians playing on its teams in seven different sports (including American football!) within the past three years. Take that, St. Olaf and Luther!

and the fact San Ramon, California residents couldn't think of a better name for their high school than 'California'.

Yeah, that one caught my eye, too. The school's sports nickname is the Grizzlies, probably a reference to the bear on the California state flag.

I can almost envision a Michigan High School being located on the eastern shores of the lake. But an Illinois High School? Where would it be located, and what would its nickname be? Probably something boring, like the Little Illini or something like that.