MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[NCF]

On a side note-I'm surpised that only four cciw schools still have wrestling.

Why are you surprised? College wrestling is dying, and it's been dying for years. In 1981-82 there were 149 D3 schools that competed in wrestling. As of 2010-11 there were only 88 D3 schools that still offered wrestling. Several of the 61 schools that dropped the sport during that period were CCIW schools. At one point, all nine CCIW schools (including Carroll) offered wrestling.

It's a shame because wrestling is a great sport. I'm surprised because youth wrestling is big and certain high school duals/tournaments can pack the stands. The interest is there, so why doesn't it carry over to college? One reason might be that football players who also wrestled in high school, would have a hard time doing both in college, due to the overlap. Some people say Title IX is partly to blame as well. Do you know why the sport has been eliminated at so many d3 schools?

[Gregory Sager]

Some people say Title IX is partly to blame as well. Do you know why the sport has been eliminated at so many d3 schools?

You just answered your own question, NCF.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Some people say Title IX is partly to blame as well. Do you know why the sport has been eliminated at so many d3 schools?

You just answered your own question, NCF.

IMO, generally a cop-out for schools, but yes, that is the usually stated reason.  EMU dropped men's soccer several years ago for that very 'stated' reason.

At many (most?) schools football accounts for 5? times as many players (and 10? times the budget) as any women's sport (and probably often any other men's sports).  Both the regulators and the schools have simply GOT to find a way to take that into account - personally, I have no solution to offer except perhaps placing football in a completely separate category (which might raise more problems than it solves).  At many d1 schools, football funds all the other sports; in d3 I suspect most football teams do not even break even (except, perhaps, in extra tuition dollars).

[NCF]

Some people say Title IX is partly to blame as well. Do you know why the sport has been eliminated at so many d3 schools?

You just answered your own question, NCF.

IMO, generally a cop-out for schools, but yes, that is the usually stated reason.  EMU dropped men's soccer several years ago for that very 'stated' reason.

At many (most?) schools football accounts for 5? times as many players (and 10? times the budget) as any women's sport (and probably often any other men's sports).  Both the regulators and the schools have simply GOT to find a way to take that into account - personally, I have no solution to offer except perhaps placing football in a completely separate category (which might raise more problems than it solves).  At many d1 schools, football funds all the other sports; in d3 I suspect most football teams do not even break even (except, perhaps, in extra tuition dollars).

That's a shame.

[sac]

On a side note-I'm surpised that only four cciw schools still have wrestling.

Why are you surprised? College wrestling is dying, and it's been dying for years. In 1981-82 there were 149 D3 schools that competed in wrestling. As of 2010-11 there were only 88 D3 schools that still offered wrestling. Several of the 61 schools that dropped the sport during that period were CCIW schools. At one point, all nine CCIW schools (including Carroll) offered wrestling.

The National Wrestling Coaches Association might differ in the thought of college wrestling dying.
http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcawebsite/savingwrestlinghome/facts.aspx

I have no idea how old or new that is, but they state 81 college wrestling programs have been added across 'all divisions'.  Perhaps the dwindling D3 numbers are not the norm and are merely a D3 problem.....such as extended travel combined with meager D3 budgets?

...or perhaps after years of being cut, wrestling is making a comeback?


By the way, Title IX was one of the reasons Wisconsin cut baseball in 1991, I find it somewhat hard to believe its been 21 years.

further research reveals Title IX wasn't mentioned....

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1991-03-23/sports/9101260451_1_athletic-director-pat-richter-alan-fish-wisconsin-legislature

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Title IX is an easy "out" for many schools when it comes to budget cutbacks... but that isn't the whole story. Granted, this is D3, so the weight of scholarships in D1 and D2 is not a factor on budgets in D3... however, sports like football, hockey, baseball, even lacrosse, and others that require plenty of equipment and more financially challenging facilities skew the budgets that cause other programs to have problems keeping many of programs from avoiding the budget elimination.

Of course, you don't hear of sports like football, hockey, baseball (though, previous example does show otherwise), lacrosse, etc. being cut OUT of athletics for whatever reason... but you do hear about the wrestling, soccer, swimming, diving, etc. programs because they are easier to cut. That being said, I am not pretending that the bigger sports don't have budget cut-backs, but I am quite sure the conversations about cutting programs that have the largest staffs, student-athletes, and biggest equipment and facilities demands are short.

Now, Title IX certainly is a factor since when it comes to the number of sports being offered especially as a ratio to the school's "population"... and that usually means men's sports take the hit first, but Title IX is more of a scapegoat for why athletic departments have to make cuts and when it doesn't usually seem "fair."

Final thought, I agree with Pat about the notion of field hockey. Granted, this is a midwest board and I am from the east coast... and while field hockey is certainly popular at prep schools on this side of the Appalachians as well... but it is also very popular at public schools and colleges are a mix of prep and public students.

[NCF]

On a side note-I'm surpised that only four cciw schools still have wrestling.

Why are you surprised? College wrestling is dying, and it's been dying for years. In 1981-82 there were 149 D3 schools that competed in wrestling. As of 2010-11 there were only 88 D3 schools that still offered wrestling. Several of the 61 schools that dropped the sport during that period were CCIW schools. At one point, all nine CCIW schools (including Carroll) offered wrestling.

The National Wrestling Coaches Association might differ in the thought of college wrestling dying.
http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcawebsite/savingwrestlinghome/facts.aspx

I have no idea how old or new that is, but they state 81 college wrestling programs have been added across 'all divisions'.  Perhaps the dwindling D3 numbers are not the norm and are merely a D3 problem.....such as extended travel combined with meager D3 budgets?

...or perhaps after years of being cut, wrestling is making a comeback?


By the way, Title IX was one of the reasons Wisconsin cut baseball in 1991, I find it somewhat hard to believe its been 21 years.

And probably one of the reasons Northwestern doen't have a men's track team. As far a wrestling, youth wrestling is big in Illinois. My son wrestled from 7 yrs old through high school. The only reason he gave it up was because of the overlap with football and track. Hopefully, it will find it's place again in D3.

[Titan Q]

A recent article on Jack Sikma by Taylor Bell...

http://www.csnchicago.com/preps/news/Sikma-eyes-NBA-job-Hall-of-Fame?blockID=721196&feedID=629

[Dennis_Prikkel]

I'm sure someone has mentioned it here - but i just found out Michael Orris is following Bruce Weber to Kansas State.  Nice kid, I hope he enjoys the other Manhattan.

[Gregory Sager]

On a side note-I'm surpised that only four cciw schools still have wrestling.

Why are you surprised? College wrestling is dying, and it's been dying for years. In 1981-82 there were 149 D3 schools that competed in wrestling. As of 2010-11 there were only 88 D3 schools that still offered wrestling. Several of the 61 schools that dropped the sport during that period were CCIW schools. At one point, all nine CCIW schools (including Carroll) offered wrestling.

The National Wrestling Coaches Association might differ in the thought of college wrestling dying.
http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcawebsite/savingwrestlinghome/facts.aspx

I have no idea how old or new that is, but they state 81 college wrestling programs have been added across 'all divisions'.  Perhaps the dwindling D3 numbers are not the norm and are merely a D3 problem.....such as extended travel combined with meager D3 budgets?

And I have no idea how they got those numbers. Here's the NCAA's statistics on wrestling participation, starting from the first school year that participation statistics were kept (1981-82), continuing through the year that the NWCA mentioned as being the start of wrestling's purported big comeback (2002-03), and ending with the last year that the NCAA has participation statistics available on it's website (2010-11):

year	# of D1/D2/D3 teams	total # of teams	total # of wrestlers
1981-82	146 / 68 / 149	363	7,914
2002-03	87 / 43 / 101	231	5,943
2010-11	80 / 56 /   88	224	6,736

D2 wrestling has seen a slight uptick in the number of sponsoring schools since 2002, but D1 and D3 continue to see declines. The number of wrestlers, as opposed to the number of wrestling teams, is increasing -- wrestling rosters are much larger than they used to be, going up from an average of 22 wrestlers per team in 1981-82 to 30 per team as of two years ago -- but there's still been a substantial overall decrease in the number of NCAA wrestlers over the past three decades. And, besides, the NWCA isn't bragging about the number of wrestlers, it's bragging about the number of wrestling teams.

Of course, the NCAA isn't the whole show. But there's only 42 wrestling programs in all of NAIA, so that can't account for this supposed increase of 81 programs that the NWCA's bragging about. I haven't looked into juco numbers, but that's gotta be the only place left that can account for that increase. As far as four-year schools are concerned, wrestling's barely breaking even, if that, over the past decade in terms of the number of institutions that offer the sport.

...or perhaps after years of being cut, wrestling is making a comeback?

The numbers indicate that the rate of decline has slowed in terms of schools dropping wrestling, while the number of student-athletes who participate has gone up (meets must go on forever if each team's got that many wrestlers on the roster!). Interpret it how you will, but, to me, it doesn't appear that wrestling is making a comeback, at least on the NCAA level -- it looks like it's simply managed to slow down the bleeding.

Final thought, I agree with Pat about the notion of field hockey. Granted, this is a midwest board and I am from the east coast... and while field hockey is certainly popular at prep schools on this side of the Appalachians as well... but it is also very popular at public schools and colleges are a mix of prep and public students.

I attended a public high school. I thought it was kinda obvious that I was being facetious when I stereotyped field-hockey girls as being snobby. Time to unpack the smileys again, I guess.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

we did not have field hockey at my public high school in NYC.  but then DeWitt Clinton was an all boys high school at the time with about 15 sports - including handball - they used to have a couple of kids each year go to Lake Forest to play handball.

[markerickson]

Title IX+Elimination of Wrestling=Wrong.  North Park dropped wrestling a couple years after I had been on the team.  The elimination of the team had nothing to do with Title IX because the move did not get NP into compliance with any prong of the three-part test for the underrepresented sex, women.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Title IX+Elimination of Wrestling=Wrong.  North Park dropped wrestling a couple years after I had been on the team.  The elimination of the team had nothing to do with Title IX because the move did not get NP into compliance with any prong of the three-part test for the underrepresented sex, women.

quite true - wrestling was dropped because staff did not want to recruit for it - even though the sport had a period of great success in the early seventies under coach Dick Mahoney - even winning a conference championship.

[RFMichigan]

Title IX+Elimination of Wrestling=Wrong.  North Park dropped wrestling a couple years after I had been on the team.  The elimination of the team had nothing to do with Title IX because the move did not get NP into compliance with any prong of the three-part test for the underrepresented sex, women.

quite true - wrestling was dropped because staff did not want to recruit for it - even though the sport had a period of great success in the early seventies under coach Dick Mahoney - even winning a conference championship.

So my question is this: If Title IX isn't the reason for so many schools droppings wrestling, why aren't more schools adding it? You hear about dIII schools looking to add revenue stream (and more males to their student body) and adding football, lacrosse, etc. to do so. Why wouldn't wrestling be a likely candidate for a school? It seems to have less "overhead" costs associated with it than football or hockey. Gym time/space?

[Gregory Sager]

Title IX+Elimination of Wrestling=Wrong.  North Park dropped wrestling a couple years after I had been on the team.  The elimination of the team had nothing to do with Title IX because the move did not get NP into compliance with any prong of the three-part test for the underrepresented sex, women.

Title IX isn't the reason why NPC dropped wrestling, but it is the reason cited by many, if not most, schools that have dropped the sport. We've had the Title IX argument before, and I see no point in rehashing it. The point here really isn't whether or not Title IX is a valid excuse for dropping wrestling. The point is that many schools have dropped wrestling, which is what NCF was inquiring about in the first place.

So my question is this: If Title IX isn't the reason for so many schools droppings wrestling, why aren't more schools adding it? You hear about dIII schools looking to add revenue stream (and more males to their student body) and adding football, lacrosse, etc. to do so. Why wouldn't wrestling be a likely candidate for a school? It seems to have less "overhead" costs associated with it than football or hockey. Gym time/space?

Exactly. Wrestling is a low-budget-impact sport. You don't need a huge coaching staff; equipment and facilities costs are minimal; and, even if it makes it harder to schedule gym use during the winter for schools that only have one competition gym, scheduling is hardly an insurmountable obstacle, especially when you look at the big picture in terms of cost-benefit analysis.

If you want my guesses as to why school administrators are reluctant to introduce (or re-introduce) wrestling, I'd say it's likely one or more of the following, in no particular order:

1) Title IX fears, whether real or imagined;
2) The common perception that college wrestling is in eclipse, which brings concern about the number of potential opponents (now or in the future);
3) The parallel perception that college lacrosse is on the rise, making it a better bet in terms of potential opponents and/or student interest;
4) For schools looking to add males to correct a lopsided female:male student ratio, football (2010-11 D3 roster average: 100.3 athletes) and lacrosse (34.1 athletes) look like better ways to augment the male population than wrestling (27.2 athletes). This is especially true for football, which not only brings in three times as many male athletes as lacrosse (and four times as many as wrestling), but also has a so-called "halo effect" in that studies show that, on average, schools that have football teams are viewed more positively as potential college choices by male high-schoolers than schools that don't, even if the male in question is not a football player.

If I had to put my money on one of these guesses, it'd be #2.