MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AO]

One of the big complaints about the final being moved to Atlanta this year, among several other complaints, is that it will be swallowed up and become a media afterthought. Well, as D-Mac said, that's exactly what would happen every year if the D3 Final Four was held in a big city such as Chicago or Naptown.

The ideal solution would be for a smaller city, perhaps one a little further east that has good interstate highway and airport access (i.e., Akron or Toledo or Erie or Canton) to step up and put in a bid to host. Everyone always talks about what a great job Salem does every year, and I'm not disputing that, but the basic problem of location still remains. Salem, VA is simply not very well situated geographically with regard to D3, which is overwhelmingly oriented towards the northeast and the midwest in terms of where member schools are located.

In what year was the D3 final four not an afterthought in Chicago?  How could you become less of a media afterthought by moving closer to the media?  Read some of the olympic stories, the media often covers what is convenient to them, rather than make effort to travel up to Scotland or Manchester to watch the soccer.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

AO - as a member of the media who worked in television for 14+ years... and works in market size 26... it can EASILY be an after thought.

In Baltimore, there are a number of D3 schools, but they are always pushed aside to cover the D1's... even if those D1's are lousy. It is always tough for me to convince others to come to D3 games and I have seen far less cameras at big games than in the past. Heck, even the local newspapers and online media don't even attend games.

Just because an event is "closer" to the media doesn't mean it is actually easier to get to an event. Using the Olympics example isn't that good since almost all of the events are within a short distance. If the D3 final four was in Chicago, you would still be competing against the D1's basketball stories (and other big college happenings like spring sports), the Bulls, the Blackhawks, and the resources that have been sent to cover the White Sox and Cubs in Spring Training. Plus you have whatever else is on the calendar and now you are ADDING the D3 championship. Plus the fact, if there are no local schools involved in what is already a very busy city and or period of time for people (beginning of Spring), local media will be hard pressed to dedicate what is already dwindling resources in general to the D3 final four after maybe the first year (which would get a bump for the "hey look!" prestige).

Now, I think the game in Atlanta will garner a lot of attention for a couple of simple reasons: it is in conjunction with the D1 Final Four and the D2 championship and because of the 75th Anniversary and the unique chance to see all three divisions in on place, media will care; the game is being played pretty much next door to the Georgia Dome and the media's "headquarters" in the arenas and hotels, very convenient; a big deal is being made about this Final Four weekend well enough in advance. That all being said, don't expect the coverage to be as big as the D1 while it will still be bigger than Salem usually gets.

Now, if the game was permanently moved to the same weekend as D1... eventually the mainstream media isn't going to care anymore and after the first year's big pop (see above about Chicago), they would eventually lose interest and you would see a lot less coverage. Imagine getting the same media attention or less than Salem gets (and some of the local media does a really nice job with the D3 championships) but in a city 10x the size population wise and including the suburbs that number climbs exponentially. Now try and tell the students playing in those games that it is a big deal when they are just another event in a very, very city (even Indy is a busy city).

While I appreciate the thoughts of putting an event like this in a bigger city, if you aim too high the event isn't going to be better off. Again, I fight the battle ALL the time that D3 teams deserve better coverage in the Baltimore (market 26) and even DC (market 10?), but even a story about a team ranked pretty high nationally and hosting the NCAA tournament gets a "if we don't have anything else going on" then telling the media they should cover a D1 team for whatever reason you can come up with.

[D-3 watcher]

All might be true about the media, but I have to think that in a location with a lot of D3 schools close by, whether east or Midwest, there would more seats filled. Dave, is there data on what percent of ticket sales are local, and how much they have changed over the years. But I agree about the media, Chicago has some great D3 schools and a lot of media outlets, but seldom do we get a story.

[dahlby]

High School sports get more attention than D3 in Southern California. The paper says it is all about selling papers.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

D-3... I can check... but curious if you think an event like the D3 final four would garner people in a big city who have no routing interest any more reason to attend the games than those who live in the Roanoke Valley? The biggest challenge for anyone hosting would be the local crowds. That has been the challenge on the women's side to be sure... first year hosting has always gotten a good local crowd... but the second year has dwindled.

[Gregory Sager]

I can tell you from firsthand experience that walk-up spectators and/or regular "townie" followers are few and far between at urban D3 schools, at least in Chicago. When North Park was a national power, the vast majority of the people who filled the crackerbox for every home game were people who had a personal connection to the school: Students, alumni, and staff. Similarly, when I attended Maroons vs. Bears games at the U of C when Wash U was on its three-consecutive-Final-Fours streak a few years ago, there were plenty of empty seats in the Ratner Center -- and most of the people there whom I didn't recognize were wearing Bears red and green and were clearly present in the gym because they had some connection to Wash U. When defending national champion UWSP visited the Ratner Center in '04-'05, early in what would turn out to be a repeat championship season for the Pointers, April and I were two of what was probably a dozen or a dozen and a half spectators that had no visible affiliation with either UWSP or Chicago.

There are a million different things to do in the big city, as well as dozens of different teams ranging from the pros to local high schools that draw the interest of sports fans. NPU is not a well-known Chicago institution, so it makes sense that the Vikings weren't a big draw in their '70s and '80s heyday -- it was always DePaul this, DePaul that, Ray Meyer this, Mark Aguirre that -- but even when the University of Chicago has had strong teams or (as I pointed out) hosted national-championship-caliber opponents, casual fans didn't turn out to watch. It just doesn't work that way. I would be surprised if it's different in any of the other big cities in which D3 schools are located, regardless of the caliber of the team or teams involved. If you want walk-up spectators or townie followers, you need to be in a small city or a rural situation, a la Hope, UWSP, Wooster, IWU, etc. D3 sports get buried in the huge and constant noise chamber of big-city sports, and that's an irrefutable fact.

I don't think that you'll get a ton of paying fans from other nearby D3 schools if you hold it in a particular location. Let's say that you move the D3 Final Four to Canton. I doubt that that'll mean that a lot of Wooster, Mount Union, and Steubenville fans will therefore turn out to watch the D3 Final Four. They won't come unless one of those teams is actually in it. I think that you can build up at least a bit of a local base of interested people if you're willing to commit to a long-term contract so that locals can actually get used to the games being there each year and develop an ongoing interest in the D3 Final Four, similar (but on a much smaller scale) to the way that Omahans turn out to watch the D1 College World Series every year regardless of whether or not Nebraska or Creighton are in it. But I think you're kidding yourself if you think that you can actually create an economically sustaining fan base out of locals for the D3 Final Four. Given all the factors involved, I think that the D3 Final Four is going to be attended mostly by the dedicated fans of each particular school who've traveled some distance to attend the games specifically to see their team. And I don't see that changing for the foreseeable future.

[iwu70]

Basically agree with Mssr. Sager here on the D3 Final Four fan base issues, esp. in larger metro areas.  Salem has been pretty good, hosted it well, so will be interesting to see what happens with quarters and semis there next March, them Finals in ATL.  Perhaps Btown could host it, would be better if contract was for 4-6 years, using the Coliseum here, about the same size at the Salem facility.  But, as Greg has said, most fans are from the participating schools, and hard to go beyond that for a D3 Final Four audience.  Hotels an issue in many of the medium, smaller size cities.  May be an issue next March in Salem with 8 teams, eight fan groups appearing for the six games.  Even harder for the women's Final Four.  Hope or IWU or some other good location, facility will always be best for women's Final Four -- now on a two year contract basis, right?  Can't imagine any women's Final Four crowd was more than about 2,500 fans, right? 

Happy summer for all.  Pray for rain.

IWU70

[RFMichigan]

So you're looking for a city which isn't too large or too small, midwestern (or NE), has arena availability, airport connections, proper accommodations, and perhaps a moderately interested population.

Two words: Grand Rapids

/somewhat serious

[Gregory Sager]

Calvin hosted the D3 Final Four back in the '80s, and I and a lot of other Vikings fans have very fond memories of North Park's two trips there in that decade. The facilities and the infrastructure (transportation, hotels, personnel, etc.) are certainly favorable for Grand Rapids, and southwestern Michigan is arguably D3's biggest hotbed of interest in men's basketball, thanks to Hope and Calvin. Having said all that, however, Grand Rapids is perhaps a little too far west. Remember, D3's largest region is the Northeast (i.e., New England). Eastern Ohio or western Pennsylvania (or perhaps even western New York; Buffalo is another city that's hosted the D3 Final Four in the past) would seem to be better situated than Grand Rapids.

[KnightSlappy]

The ideal solution would be for a smaller city, perhaps one a little further east that has good interstate highway and airport access (i.e., Akron or Toledo or Erie or Canton) to step up and put in a bid to host.

You've spent time crunching the numbers, haven't you? I just dumped the cities of all 408 active D3 members for 2012-13 into geomidpoint.com. Using their three calculation methods I got:

(Center of minimum distance): Central/Eastern Pennsylvania along I-80 between State College and Youngstown, OH
(Average lattitude/longitude): Mansfield, OH (about an hour's drive from both Canton and Akron)
(Center of gravity): Northern Ohio along Lake Erie (and I-80/90) between Cleveland and Toledo.

[AO]

Where are all these townie fans from Salem?  The title game's attendance was 2587 last year and 2838 the year before.  Hosting either game in Minneapolis/St. Paul would have drawn 5000.  Maybe North Park doesn't draw in Chicago, but how many would Wheaton or Illinois Wesleyan draw to a Chicago final?

[Gregory Sager]

The ideal solution would be for a smaller city, perhaps one a little further east that has good interstate highway and airport access (i.e., Akron or Toledo or Erie or Canton) to step up and put in a bid to host.

You've spent time crunching the numbers, haven't you? I just dumped the cities of all 408 active D3 members for 2012-13 into geomidpoint.com. Using their three calculation methods I got:

(Center of minimum distance): Central/Eastern Pennsylvania along I-80 between State College and Youngstown, OH
(Average lattitude/longitude): Mansfield, OH (about an hour's drive from both Canton and Akron)
(Center of gravity): Northern Ohio along Lake Erie (and I-80/90) between Cleveland and Toledo.

Nope. It was simply my offhand observation, based upon my familiarity with the D3 membership at large. But thanks for the affirmation via geomidpoint.com, O Dean. I feel as though I'm standing on the bridge of the Enterprise, guessing the distance to the oncomng Klingon ship, and Mr. Spock has just confirmed my guess while calculating it out a few extra decimal places.

[Gregory Sager]

Where are all these townie fans from Salem?

Who said that there were any?

The title game's attendance was 2587 last year and 2838 the year before.  Hosting either game in Minneapolis/St. Paul would have drawn 5000.

That's absolutely ridiculous. The most that any D3 game played in Minnesota has drawn in the past two years was less than 2,800 ... and that game wasn't even held in the Twin Cities. It was St. Thomas @ St. John's two years ago.

Maybe North Park doesn't draw in Chicago, but how many would Wheaton or Illinois Wesleyan draw to a Chicago final?

Not 5,000, I can tell you that much.

[Titan Q]

Where are all these townie fans from Salem?  The title game's attendance was 2587 last year and 2838 the year before.  Hosting either game in Minneapolis/St. Paul would have drawn 5000.  Maybe North Park doesn't draw in Chicago, but how many would Wheaton or Illinois Wesleyan draw to a Chicago final?

I agree.  I just don't think there is enough "townie" support in Salem for that to be a consideration in this discussion.  I've been to Salem many times and I'm not sure there are more than, I don't know, 25 or so purely local, non-affiliated people in the stands each year.  Whatever the number, it is basically a non-factor.

I also don't think there is enough local media in Salem for that to be a consideration (regarding the debate around the D3 Final Four getting swallowed up in a larger media market).  The Roanoke Times does a nice job of covering the D3 Final Four every year...but that is extent of the local media really.  Are the couple feature stories and the individual game stories in the Roanoke Times enough for the student-athletes and fans to have a better time than if the event was held in Chicago with no coverage in the Tribune and Sun-Times?  I just have a hard time believing that the quality and quantity of local media coverage in Salem much of a factor.  Wherever the event is, the only D3 media that really matters (D3hoops.com) would still be there, right?  (And hopefully some live streaming from the NCAA, or even some TV.)

I believe the D3 Final Four could be just as much of a success in another community the size of Roanoke-Salem (like a Bloomington-Normal, IL) or even a large metro area like Chicago (in a properly-sized venue - a 7000 seat building at absolute max).  To me it just all comes down to the people who run the event and how they execute it.  For many years now the folks in Salem have absolutely perfected D3 Final Four weekend.  That's why those of us who have been there have so much respect for Salem as the venue. 

I have loved every trip I've made to Salem but I do think geographically it's a really bad location.  That said, I'd only want to see the venue moved if the right people are in place to execute the way Salem has.

[AO]

Where are all these townie fans from Salem?

Who said that there were any?

The title game's attendance was 2587 last year and 2838 the year before.  Hosting either game in Minneapolis/St. Paul would have drawn 5000.

That's absolutely ridiculous. The most that any D3 game played in Minnesota has drawn in the past two years was less than 2,800 ... and that game wasn't even held in the Twin Cities. It was St. Thomas @ St. John's two years ago.

Maybe North Park doesn't draw in Chicago, but how many would Wheaton or Illinois Wesleyan draw to a Chicago final?

Not 5,000, I can tell you that much.

St. Thomas and Whitewater have 10000+ students each, with a hundred thousand more alumni within driving distance.  Bandwagon fans aren't driving to Salem from Wiscy or Minnesota.  St. Thomas' arena sold out for the first round in 2011 easily.