MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

St. Thomas and Whitewater have 10000+ students each, with a hundred thousand more alumni within driving distance.

... relatively few of whom attend men's basketball games at their respective alma maters.

school/yr	avg att	high game
UST 2011-12	727	1,821 (vs. UWSP @ UWSP)
UST 2010-11	1,046	2,838 (vs. Wooster @ Salem, VA)
UST 2009-10	821	2,410 (vs. UWSP @ UWSP)
UST 2008-09	1,049	2,793 (vs. Gustavus Adolphus @ GAC)
UWW 2011-12	806	2,587 (vs. Cabrini @ Salem, VA)
UWW 2010-11	597	1,610 (vs. UWSP @ UWSP)
UWW 2009-10	899	2,630 (vs. UWSP @ UWSP)
UWW 2008-09	919	2,520 (vs. UWSP @ UWSP)

You might've been better off using UW-Stevens Point for your argument, considering the above. But it's not as though the Pointers are drawing 5,000 a game, either. They've averaged between a thousand and 1,400 over each of the past four seasons.

Bandwagon fans aren't driving to Salem from Wiscy or Minnesota.

Looks like they aren't driving to St. Paul or Whitewater, either. Or, more exactly, those armies of bandwagon fans are a figment of your imagination, and playoff basketball adds maybe a couple hundred or so, max, to the usual crowds that attend Tommies and Warhawks (and Pointers) games.

St. Thomas' arena sold out for the first round in 2011 easily.

Maybe it did. But UST's Schoenecker Arena seats either 2,000 or 2,250 (the school can't seem to make up its' mind about that extra 250). It says so right here on the UST website. And do you know how many fans were there for that first-round game in 2011 between the Tommies and your Eagles at UST's Schoenecker Arena?

1,575.

Seriously, AO, this is one of the most ludicrous arguments you've ever put forth on d3boards.com. Five thousand fans at a D3 Final Four in the Twin Cities? I sure hope you're not seeking a job with the National Park Service as one of those people who estimates crowd sizes at the National Mall in Washington.

[AO]

St. Thomas' arena sold out for the first round in 2011 easily.

Maybe it did. But UST's Schoenecker Arena seats either 2,000 or 2,250 (the school can't seem to make up its' mind about that extra 250). It says so right here on the UST website. And do you know how many fans were there for that first-round game in 2011 between the Tommies and your Eagles at UST's Schoenecker Arena?

1,575.

Seriously, AO, this is one of the most ludicrous arguments you've ever put forth on d3boards.com. Five thousand fans at a D3 Final Four in the Twin Cities? I sure hope you're not seeking a job with the National Park Service as one of those people who estimates crowd sizes at the National Mall in Washington.

They sold tickets for the two first round games together.  Some of the River Falls/IWU fans left during the Northwestern/St. Thomas game, so 1575 was simply a number to reflect that.  They could have sold a thousand more tickets to the St. Thomas/Northwestern game if they split up the games and kicked everyone out after river falls/iwu.

I guess you'll just have to trust me about the Tommie bandwagon, they'd jump on big time to be able to watch a final four. 

[Gregory Sager]

They sold tickets for the two first round games together.  Some of the River Falls/IWU fans left during the Northwestern/St. Thomas game, so 1575 was simply a number to reflect that.  They could have sold a thousand more tickets to the St. Thomas/Northwestern game if they split up the games and kicked everyone out after river falls/iwu.

Oh, come on. That's preposterous. Nothing in the statistical database for UST men's basketball -- nothing -- points to the existence of 1,000 phantom bandwagon fans who are just waiting for the right opportunity to attend a Tommies game but who got shut out that night because too many UWRF and IWU fans stuck around Schoenecker to watch the second game.

The first game's attendance was 1,500. Even if UST had decided to have a split session that night to prevent fans from one game from occupying seats during the other game, and even if you presumed no overlap, you'd still end up with only a little more than 3,000 fans. Think about that for a moment. That's a foursome that includes the home team, another team from across town, a team from a 6,500-student school that's a half-hour drive away, and another midwestern team that has a well-earned reputation for bringing a large group of fans on the road with it in the post-season. In other words, that 2011 quad in St. Paul was the ideal situation to absolutely max out attendance in a four-team scenario in the Twin Cities ... and, giving the benefit of the doubt that there was no overlap, it still came out to roughly 60% of this mythical 5,000-fan attendance you're touting for a Twin Cities Final Four.

I guess you'll just have to trust me about the Tommie bandwagon, they'd jump on big time to be able to watch a final four.

Nothing you've said so far makes any sense, so why should I believe your implication that there's literally thousands of Tommies fans who are sitting on their hands and refusing to ever watch their team play unless the Tommies play in a Twin Cities Final Four?

[AndOne]

St. Thomas' arena sold out for the first round in 2011 easily.

Maybe it did. But UST's Schoenecker Arena seats either 2,000 or 2,250 (the school can't seem to make up its' mind about that extra 250). It says so right here on the UST website. And do you know how many fans were there for that first-round game in 2011 between the Tommies and your Eagles at UST's Schoenecker Arena?

1,575.

Seriously, AO, this is one of the most ludicrous arguments you've ever put forth on d3boards.com. Five thousand fans at a D3 Final Four in the Twin Cities? I sure hope you're not seeking a job with the National Park Service as one of those people who estimates crowd sizes at the National Mall in Washington.

Standing room?      

[AndOne]

St. Thomas and Whitewater have 10000+ students each, with a hundred thousand more alumni within driving distance.  St. Thomas' arena sold out for the first round in 2011 easily.

AO--

Give each school half the fans within driving distance, and you still have a very lofty number of 50,000 "within driving distance" as you put it. But, isn't the question where were all of those UST and UWW fans during the seasons Greg Sager delineated above? 
During the last 4 years, UST's most attended game was the 2010-2011 championship game in VA. The attendance was  2838. Our graduate assistant played in that game, and, I believe will swear that at least half the fans were Wooster supporters. With the much closer driving distance it may well have been more than half, but lets call it even. That means 1419 UST fans were in attendance. Lets say the game was held in the Twin Cities. Even with those 10,000 students, and 50,000 more alumni within "driving distance," how many more fans do you think would attend a local championship game? Its doubtful the game would be a sellout, or even that close to one. And remember, the opposing school would likely have just as many fans present. Were you thinking you might need the Hump Dome?
It just doesn't seem feasible that all those alums would still be that attached to the school. As has been stated, lots to do in the big city. 

[AO]

They sold tickets for the two first round games together.  Some of the River Falls/IWU fans left during the Northwestern/St. Thomas game, so 1575 was simply a number to reflect that.  They could have sold a thousand more tickets to the St. Thomas/Northwestern game if they split up the games and kicked everyone out after river falls/iwu.

Oh, come on. That's preposterous. Nothing in the statistical database for UST men's basketball -- nothing -- points to the existence of 1,000 phantom bandwagon fans who are just waiting for the right opportunity to attend a Tommies game but who got shut out that night because too many UWRF and IWU fans stuck around Schoenecker to watch the second game.

The first game's attendance was 1,500. Even if UST had decided to have a split session that night to prevent fans from one game from occupying seats during the other game, and even if you presumed no overlap, you'd still end up with only a little more than 3,000 fans. Think about that for a moment. That's a foursome that includes the home team, another team from across town, a team from a 6,500-student school that's a half-htour drive away, and another midwestern team that has a well-earned reputation for bringing a large group of fans on the road with it in the post-season. In other words, that 2011 quad in St. Paul was the ideal situation to absolutely max out attendance in a four-team scenario in the Twin Cities ... and, giving the benefit of the doubt that there was no overlap, it still came out to roughly 60% of this mythical 5,000-fan attendance you're touting for a Twin Cities Final Four.

I guess you'll just have to trust me about the Tommie bandwagon, they'd jump on big time to be able to watch a final four.

Nothing you've said so far makes any sense, so why should I believe your implication that there's literally thousands of Tommies fans who are sitting on their hands and refusing to ever watch their team play unless the Tommies play in a Twin Cities Final Four?

It was a pre-sale sellout, they didn't have Tommie/northwestern fans waiting for someone to leave before being able to get in the doors.  Northwestern's allotment sold out in a few hours.  While it's certainly true St. Thomas doesn't sell out often, they do fill it up against st. John's or against Gustavus for the miac title.  Some people will stay away if they know seats are hard to come by.  Remember, Tommie fans are bandwagon, not die-hards.  This is the same St. Thomas who plays football in front of 10k in the stands and thousands more on one of the most powerful radio stations in the Midwest.  5k is a safe estimate.

[Gregory Sager]

It was a pre-sale sellout, they didn't have Tommie/northwestern fans waiting for someone to leave before being able to get in the doors.

... which only goes to show that this phantom UST army of yours doesn't really exist.

Northwestern's allotment sold out in a few hours.  While it's certainly true St. Thomas doesn't sell out often, they do fill it up against st. John's or against Gustavus for the miac title.

Baloney. Last year GAC played UST at Schoenecker for the MIAC playoff title. The attendance? 1,300.

GAC @ UST last season? 945 in attendance.
UST @ GAC last season? 1,634 in attendance (Lund Arena seats 3,500).
SJU @ UST last season? 1,695 in attendance.
UST @ SJU last season? 847 in attendance. (Sexton Arena also seats 3,500).

The more you assert that there is this huge multi-thousands groundswell of interest in UST basketball that has yet to manifest itself, the more the evidence actually seems to point in the opposite direction.

Some people will stay away if they know seats are hard to come by.

"Some people" = 3,000 to 3,500 people

Remember, Tommie fans are bandwagon, not die-hards.

They've had plenty of opportunities to hitch a ride on that bandwagon in recent years, given UST's national success. For crying out loud, we're talking about a team that won the national championship two years ago. In that championship run, the Tommies -- who entered post-season play with a 23-3 record and a #9 national ranking -- had 1,200 in the stands who saw them beat Hamline in the MIAC tourney semifinals, and 1,375 who see them beat Gustavus Adolphus in the final. Both games were played on the UST campus at Schoenecker Arena. As if that wasn't enough evidence of a completely deserted bandwagon, the Tommies drew the aforementioned 1,375 in their opening-round win over your Northwestern Eaglies at Schoenecker, and followed it up the next night with a crowd of 1,300 that saw them beat Illinois Wesleyan, also at Schoenecker. The Bandwagon That Wasn't then rolled on to Rock Island, IL, where 862 people saw the Tommies oust UWSP from the tournament in the sectional semis, and then 2,286 saw them knock off host Augustana in the sectional final the next night, with the vast majority of that 2,286 wearing Augie navy blue and gold. A total of 2,354 fans saw UST beat Middlebury in the semis in Salem, and, of course, 2,858 watched the championship game in which St. Thomas beat Wooster -- and, since I watched that game online and could thus see at least half of the stands (and hear all of them), I can attest that Wooster did indeed have more fans present than did UST.

Where is the evidence for this bandwagon of thousands of potential UST basketball fans, AO? If it was ever going to manifest itself, it would've done so in 2010-11. Don't get me wrong; I'm not knocking UST's fan base. The Tommies draw fairly well for a D3 program. But when they're winning conference tournament championship games in their home gym against an archrival in front of a crowd that barely fills up half of Schoenecker one year, and then about 40% of the seats the next year, then the evidence is crystal-clear that there is no such thing as an untapped potential crowd of thousands of heretofore-unseen St. Thomas basketball fans.

This is the same St. Thomas who plays football in front of 10k in the stands and thousands more on one of the most powerful radio stations in the Midwest.

First of all, football and basketball are apples and oranges as far as fan support is concerned. That may be even more true in Minnesota than it is in other places, because in Minnesota more than elsewhere hockey is a strong contender with basketball for winter sports loyalty.

Second, UST only draws five-figure crowds when it plays archrival St. John's. Otherwise, UST football crowds are in the 1,500 to 4,000 range.

5k is a safe estimate.

You're truly delusional if you actually think that. There is no evidence whatsoever to support your claim.

[AO]

It was a pre-sale sellout, they didn't have Tommie/Northwestern fans waiting for someone to leave before being able to get in the doors.

... which only goes to show that this phantom UST army of yours doesn't really exist.

The tickets were pre-sold.  Get it?   There was no one to take the ticket of a leaving IWU fan to resell it to someone else.  They were handstamping so the IWU fan wouldn't even have been able to sell their ticket to someone else after their game.

You weren't at any of the Gustavus-UST games.     They were far more than 50% full.  If St. Thomas can get 1000 to po-dunk Salem, you think they'd have trouble getting another 2000 10 min away?  You'd get hundreds of people who hadn't gone to a game in years.

[Titan Q]

AO, you are getting abused in the post by Greg Sager about to this degree...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkEVn1VUBlE


You need to say "uncle" and move on here.

[AO]

AO, you are getting abused in the post by Greg Sager about to this degree...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkEVn1VUBlE


You need to say "uncle" and move on here.

Would Wooster have trouble getting fans to Minneapolis too?  Are we really making the argument that Salem gets the best attendance?  If it's not the best are we quibbling about the difference between 4k and 5k? 

How many went to IWU-Hope last year?  What's the best reason to defend Salem, the politeness of the volunteers?  It isn't attendance and it isn't media coverage.

[Titan Q]

What's the best reason to defend Salem, the politeness of the volunteers?  It isn't attendance and it isn't media coverage.

I wasn't taking sides on the Salem vs another location issue, AO.  I was just pointing out that you're getting abused on this St. Thomas attendance thing.  The facts seem to be your enemy here. 

But regarding Salem...

In my opinion the best reason to defend Salem is the quality of the student-athlete experience provided by the Salem crew year after year (which would seem to be the most important factor).  They have consistently done a tremendous job.  To accomplish this you have to have the right people...and Salem has the right people. 

I think there are dozens of other towns and venues in the U.S. that would be better fits for the D3 Final Four, but to make the experience successful, they'd have to have people who a) care as much about the D3 experience as those on the Salem committee do, b) are as talented at running the event as those on the Salem commitee are, and c) are willing to volunteer the same countless hours of their time.  I'm not sold we'd find that in every location.

I spent $850 on a plane ticket to Roanoke last March from Lincoln, Nebraska -- that is what it cost with 5 days lead time.  And it was too far too drive.  I don't like that part of the Salem location one bit, but I also don't want it moved unless the weekend will be executed as well as it is in Salem.

[Gregory Sager]

I've been consistently critical of the Salem location because it's out of the way for the bulk of D3 schools. But Bob's point about the student-athlete experience is an important one, because the school presidents and other administrators who run D3 have always maintained that the overall quality of intercollegiate competition from the student-athlete's point of view, both on and off the field -- not the considerations of coaches, support staff, etc., or the convenience of fans -- is paramount at this level. In other words, the people who run D3 are more concerned that the players have a great experience at the Final Four than they are that you or I or any other fans have a great experience at the Final Four. Thus, the fact that the Salem folks treat the student-athletes so well is a major consideration that should not be pushed aside in this conversation.

[AO]

If given the choice between playing in front of more family, friends and fans or having having nicer volunteers, I'd go with the bigger crowd every time.  What's the student athlete experience of Salem vs. any major metro area with more to do/see? 

[Mr. Ypsi]

AO, you are getting abused in the post by Greg Sager about to this degree...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkEVn1VUBlE


You need to say "uncle" and move on here.

Would Wooster have trouble getting fans to Minneapolis too?  Are we really making the argument that Salem gets the best attendance?  If it's not the best are we quibbling about the difference between 4k and 5k? 

How many went to IWU-Hope last year?  What's the best reason to defend Salem, the politeness of the volunteers?  It isn't attendance and it isn't media coverage.

The DeVos was jammed both nights (official capacity is 3400; I'd estimate 3300-3500 each night).  Friday night, IWU totally filled one section, UWSP and Westminster each partially filled one section, Hope filled the other 9(?).  Saturday night, IWU spilled over their section into a few in another, Hope filled the rest.  Saturday's game was the most electrifying crowd (and best game) I have ever been personally involved with at any level of competition!  (And, considering how outnumbered we were, the Titan crowd nearly held their own against the Dutch! )

[NCF]

I spent $850 on a plane ticket to Roanoke last March from Lincoln, Nebraska -- that is what it cost with 5 days lead time.  And it was too far too drive.  I don't like that part of the Salem location one bit, but I also don't want it moved unless the weekend will be executed as well as it is in Salem.
[/quote]  $850 times 2 (if mom and dad want to go),plus hotel, food, tickets, etc. and it can add up to a very expensive week-end (unfortunately).