MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Pat Coleman]

Where are all these townie fans from Salem?

Who said that there were any?

The title game's attendance was 2587 last year and 2838 the year before.  Hosting either game in Minneapolis/St. Paul would have drawn 5000.

That's absolutely ridiculous. The most that any D3 game played in Minnesota has drawn in the past two years was less than 2,800 ... and that game wasn't even held in the Twin Cities. It was St. Thomas @ St. John's two years ago.

Maybe North Park doesn't draw in Chicago, but how many would Wheaton or Illinois Wesleyan draw to a Chicago final?

Not 5,000, I can tell you that much.

St. Thomas and Whitewater have 10000+ students each, with a hundred thousand more alumni within driving distance.  Bandwagon fans aren't driving to Salem from Wiscy or Minnesota.  St. Thomas' arena sold out for the first round in 2011 easily.

There were about 300 more tickets sold than seats, which is why they split sessions.

I agree that there probably could be places that draw better than Salem but that's not the sole criterion for anything in Division III. There's no way it draws 5,000, I agree.

[Pat Coleman]

St. Thomas' arena sold out for the first round in 2011 easily.

Maybe it did. But UST's Schoenecker Arena seats either 2,000 or 2,250 (the school can't seem to make up its' mind about that extra 250). It says so right here on the UST website. And do you know how many fans were there for that first-round game in 2011 between the Tommies and your Eagles at UST's Schoenecker Arena?

1,575.

Seriously, AO, this is one of the most ludicrous arguments you've ever put forth on d3boards.com. Five thousand fans at a D3 Final Four in the Twin Cities? I sure hope you're not seeking a job with the National Park Service as one of those people who estimates crowd sizes at the National Mall in Washington.

They sold tickets for the two first round games together.

Negative. This was a split session.

[kiko]

The ideal location would have magnificent volunteers who understand what the D3 experience is all about, a beautiful facility, lots to do outside of the games, a high demand for tickets irrespective of which teams qualified (MSP would not draw those mythical 5,000 fans if Puget Sound and Amherst followed Trinity and Wittenberg on the Final Four dance card), easy and relatively inexpensive air access for out-of-town fans, relatively close proximity to many schools in the core D3 geographic footprint, and high levels of local media interest.  And probably other stuff as well.  Oh, and to put a cherry on top, let's also say they have to be able to deliver this for both football and basketball because there is something intangibly nice that the promised land be the same place for both sports.

Salem delivers very well on some of these and not so well on others.  But I don't imagine that any locale would deliver all of these dimensions.  The question becomes how you (er, the NCAA) prioritize the tradeoffs among each of these variables.  It would seem to me that 3,000 is pretty much the ceiling we can expect for attendance absent a local (immediate vicinity) team, and you can't bank on their being one of these in the field.  Other places might muster the volunteer support, but I take those who have experienced Salem first-hand at their word that it would be hard to improve upon what Salem has to offer here.

I don't know that any other venue is going to offer better media coverage than the status quo -- the local paper provides decent coverage, and probably more column inches than you'd get out of someplace big enough to support a AAA or major league baseball team.  I'm not sure what other local media you'd find in another location that is either not present or ignoring the tourney in Salem.  ESPN / other cable properties aren't staying away because of the location, and any city big enough to have more local media outlets to provide coverage almost assuredly has bigger things to cover.

One additional thought -- I like that the tournament returns to the same location every year.  For my money, the idea that a single point on the map -- be it the Rose Bowl, the Peoria Civic Center for HS basketball, Williamsport, Salem, etc. -- becomes the focus and the goal year-in and year-out is something that fosters a strong tradition and sense of culture moreso than something that moves around and becomes a different experience each year.

[AO]

St. Thomas' arena sold out for the first round in 2011 easily.

Maybe it did. But UST's Schoenecker Arena seats either 2,000 or 2,250 (the school can't seem to make up its' mind about that extra 250). It says so right here on the UST website. And do you know how many fans were there for that first-round game in 2011 between the Tommies and your Eagles at UST's Schoenecker Arena?

1,575.

Seriously, AO, this is one of the most ludicrous arguments you've ever put forth on d3boards.com. Five thousand fans at a D3 Final Four in the Twin Cities? I sure hope you're not seeking a job with the National Park Service as one of those people who estimates crowd sizes at the National Mall in Washington.

They sold tickets for the two first round games together.

Negative. This was a split session.

Pat, I bought tickets, it wasn't a split session. 

http://uwrfsports.com/news/2011/3/1/MBB_0301113455.aspx?path=mbball

All visiting teams to the St. Thomas site are allotted 260 tickets.

Perhaps they attempted to sell some tickets at the door if any were returned, but from at least the Northwestern perspective the news was the 260 for Northwestern and the 800 for St. Thomas were sold out, with two teams with fanbases who'd have little trouble getting 260 to show up also coming.

Attendance isn't the sole criterion, but reducing time and cost of travel certainly seems to be a factor being ignored.

[Titan Q]

If given the choice between playing in front of more family, friends and fans or having having nicer volunteers, I'd go with the bigger crowd every time.  What's the student athlete experience of Salem vs. any major metro area with more to do/see?

You've referred to "nice volunteers" a couple times.  I don't think anyone has suggested that the D3 Final Four should stay in Salem because the volunteers are "nice."  The fact is the Salem committee gets the job done extremely well.  They produce results...has nothing to do with how nice these people are.

As far as the student-athlete experience in a metro area with more to do, there is really no time for sightseeing during Final Four weekend.  The teams arrive late Wednesday.  Thursday is jammed with practice, a community project, and the Final Four dinner.  Friday about noon is the walk-through, and then the games starting in the early evening.  On Saturday the all-star game kicks off sometime in the afternoon (with members of the losing Friday teams on the roster) with the championship game following.  What little down time there is over the course of the weekend is typically filled with the student-athletes doing homework - that's a regular sight around the team hotel lobby/designated conference rooms every year.  If the D3 Final Four was in Chicago, it's not like the members of the Cabrini basketball team would be on the Chicago River Architectural tour on Thursday, or riding the Navy Pier ferris wheel Friday.

The legitimate reason for holding the D3 Final Four in a larger metro area is air travel.  It's just very difficult, and expensive, to get to Salem.

[Pat Coleman]

Huh -- I wonder what I was thinking of then. Maybe it was a discussion that they thought about splitting the sessions but there wasn't enough interest.

[AO]

If given the choice between playing in front of more family, friends and fans or having having nicer volunteers, I'd go with the bigger crowd every time.  What's the student athlete experience of Salem vs. any major metro area with more to do/see?

You've referred to "nice volunteers" a couple times.  I don't think anyone has suggested that the D3 Final Four should stay in Salem because the volunteers are "nice."  The fact is the Salem committee gets the job done extremely well.  They produce results...has nothing to do with how nice these people are.

As far as the student-athlete experience in a metro area with more to do, there is really no time for sightseeing during Final Four weekend.  The teams arrive late Wednesday.  Thursday is jammed with practice, a community project, and the Final Four dinner.  Friday about noon is the walk-through, and then the games starting in the early evening.  On Saturday the all-star game kicks off sometime in the afternoon (with members of the losing Friday teams on the roster) with the championship game following.  What little down time there is over the course of the weekend is typically filled with the student-athletes doing homework - that's a regular sight around the team hotel lobby/designated conference rooms every year.  If the D3 Final Four was in Chicago, it's not like the members of the Cabrini basketball team would be on the Chicago River Architectural tour on Thursday, or riding the Navy Pier ferris wheel Friday.

The legitimate reason for holding the D3 Final Four in a larger metro area is air travel.  It's just very difficult, and expensive, to get to Salem.

I think you overvalue the difficulty of running a tournament.  I'm sure a lot of the volunteer hours would be reduced by picking a facility that was primarily a basketball arena.  What exactly would a volunteer committee from Bloomington fail to do that Salem does now?

From the schedule you provided for Thursday, seems like there is plenty of time to do something fun.  The Thursday practice isn't 3 hours and the community service project isn't 6 hours. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Couple notes of fact:

- Hotels have not been covered after being brought up a few pages ago. In the Salem/Roanoke area I can think of about 15-20 hotels (and I am sure there are plenty more) not far from the Salem Civic Center, especially around the Roanoke airport and in Salem. Hotel space isn't going to be a problem for this year's special pod action, especially since Salem has been working on this equation since this past championship weekend.

- Salem volunteers do more than just help at the facility. They help with the teams, media, and others at the hotels and elsewhere, they help for several banquets (Jostens, championship, etc.) hosted at the Salem Civic Center, the community service projects for each team (which I here the teams and the community talk about each year with smiles and appreciation), etc. They do more than make sure the arena works accordingly (which they do for HOURS each day - something I am aware of since I spend more than a few hours a day at the SCC each day).

- There is more media coverage in Salem than the Roanoke Times. I usually see a minimum of two TV stations at not only the games, but even the practices. One station in particular spends quite a bit of time interviewing players and coaches and showing highlights each night on the news (something I personally enjoy seeing when I am near a local TV). I can tell you that certainly if the event where held in the Baltimore area the Baltimore Sun, Press Box (small, free sports paper), and the TV outlets would be there in year number one... just not sure after that. The Roanoke Valley's media outlets put the weekend on their calendar each year - even if fighting Virginia Tech happenings.

- Attendance is certainly a tangible number that is important to many, but it can't be the overwhelming number when determining a host. Sure, it helps the NCAA and the community offset costs, but if it was that big a deal we have shown why the hosting option would move to another location. Other considerations are how the community (including hotels and others besides local attendance) respond to the event, the arena (which Salem continues to improve each year and is a great place to see a game - close and quaint), the student-athlete experience (community service, treated like champions even in defeat, transportation, taking care of all needs, Hotel Roanoke as team hotel, room set aside just for the students at the hotel, meals, star-treatment, etc.), and even how the area cares for the fans, media, coaches, etc. Trying to make an argument for why a place should host because of what attendance could be is making a large leap of faith.

Sure, Salem isn't that easy to get to for most... but until someone puts up a bid that the NCAA feels is worth then moving the championship tournament for... it is a mute point. And I also pity who ever hosts besides Salem, because after so many years of perfecting the experience for everyone who attends... the new location will be under a big magnify glass as it is compared to how Salem does the job.

[Titan Q]

I think you overvalue the difficulty of running a tournament.   

And I guess I think you undervalue the difficulty of running a tournament (with as many moving parts as the Final Four).  So it appears we're stuck.

[Pat Coleman]

I think you overvalue the difficulty of running a tournament.   

And I guess I think you undervalue the difficulty of running a tournament (with as many moving parts as the Final Four).  So it appears we're stuck.

Well, Q, gotta remember all of those Final Fours that AO has been to.

[AO]

I think you overvalue the difficulty of running a tournament.   

And I guess I think you undervalue the difficulty of running a tournament (with as many moving parts as the Final Four).  So it appears we're stuck.

Well, Q, gotta remember all of those Final Fours that AO has been to.

How many men's final fours at other sites have you been to?  How many basketball tournaments have you attended as a player? 

Dave,  I'm not saying Salem is a poor site.  I'm sure the hotels, volunteers and local media get the job done.  It is the factors they have no control over where they fall short.  Location and venue.  The civic center looks like a cold barn compared to IWU, Hope or Calvin where the seats are much closer to the court.  Obviously phillips arena in atlanta will have more empty seats but the fans that are there will be closer to the action.  How many d3 players ever have heard of Salem, Virginia?  Look at the results of the poll on the main page.  75 percent want the bigger venue if it works.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

For starters, please remind me if you have ever been to Salem or the Salem Civic Center...

Secondly, I wouldn't say the SCC is a cold barn. They have done some terrific upgrades to that facility to make it a wonderful place to watch a game and I know players enjoy the experience. The ones you mention are pretty much brand new gymnasiums... so unless Salem builds a brand new building, that is a poor comparision.

I would agrue a lot of D3 players have heard of Salem, Virginia. It is the goal (like Omaha for D1 baseball) for D3 players to get to. I know football knows about Salem... I am pretty sure a lot of basketball players know about Salem.

And the results on the front page are a bit out-of-wack for one big reason. I have already heard some posters say they would have voted differently if they had known the details of the tournament ahead of time. Secondly, I would bet many would love to be at the D1 final four as well. Thirdly, the grass always looks greener. Fourthly, are they voting on the bigger venue or other factors?

And AO... you don't want the answer from Pat regarding Final Four sites... the number will surprise you. Counting all sports, I have been to four or five... and I may have forgotten a couple.

[AO]

For starters, please remind me if you have ever been to Salem or the Salem Civic Center...

Secondly, I wouldn't say the SCC is a cold barn. They have done some terrific upgrades to that facility to make it a wonderful place to watch a game and I know players enjoy the experience. The ones you mention are pretty much brand new gymnasiums... so unless Salem builds a brand new building, that is a poor comparision.

I would agrue a lot of D3 players have heard of Salem, Virginia. It is the goal (like Omaha for D1 baseball) for D3 players to get to. I know football knows about Salem... I am pretty sure a lot of basketball players know about Salem.

And the results on the front page are a bit out-of-wack for one big reason. I have already heard some posters say they would have voted differently if they had known the details of the tournament ahead of time. Secondly, I would bet many would love to be at the D1 final four as well. Thirdly, the grass always looks greener. Fourthly, are they voting on the bigger venue or other factors?

And AO... you don't want the answer from Pat regarding Final Four sites... the number will surprise you. Counting all sports, I have been to four or five... and I may have forgotten a couple.

no, I've not been to Salem, and perhaps that's part of my point of moving the final four West.  The geographic center of d3 might be in the middle of Ohio somewhere, but if you're looking for the most fans you might move even farther West, 7 of the top 10 conferences in terms of attendance are between Ohio and Minnesota. 

I was asking Pat specifically about the Men's Basketball final four sites.  As D3 has been in Salem since 96', I suspect many things about the final four experience have changed, so a comparison might not be too meaningful, but it'd at least be interesting to hear if Buffalo or Springfield, Ohio were trainwrecks.

[AndOne]

Lots of recent "discussion" about the pros and cons of staging the D3 Basketball Final Four in Salem.
From pursuing the last few pages, it appears that:

1. Salem does a great job of providing a wonderful student-athlete experience thanks, in large part, to a very experienced and dedicated volunteer staff.
2. As evidenced by this year's final between UWW and Cabrini, which drew a crowd of 2,587, not more than about 3,000, at the max, could normally be expected to attend a D3 championship game. I would guess the exception might be if 2 rather "local" teams appeared in the championship game.
3. While Salem provides an impressive experience for the players, it also provides significant obstacles to that same level of experience for many fans. Most of these obstacles are geographic and financial in nature due to Salem's location and its distance from larger metropolitan area.
4. We've been advised that the powers that be consider the student-athlete experience to be paramount, as it should be.
5. Although rather isolated compared to a big city area, media coverage in Salem is probably as good as can be expected at the D3 level. A change to a more populous area would likely not result in any increased media coverage. 

***************************************************************************************************************************

Not having been to Salem, I admit I probably can't fully appreciate the degree of expertise and dedication afforded the Final Four by the Salem organizers. However I don't believe the student-athlete experience and the fan experience/enjoyment need to be mutually exclusive. Of course, it would be dependent on another municipality submitting a competitive bid, but some pretty knowledgeable posters have advised that should this occur, a change of venue for the Final Four would be strongly considered.
Not sure how anyone might feel, but I would love to see this happen Granted, there would likely be some rough spots for the first couple of years at a new location, but is seems that it might be worth it in the long run. While the student-athlete experience should remain the primary concern, I do feel the student's parents, who have spent both countless hours and dollars in support of their athletes, as well as the involved school's students, alums, and fans who provide the majority of team support over the season, do deserve a large dose of consideration. TQ spent $850. for plane fare. Add room charges and food, and its one pretty expensive weekend. And I know he would have loved to have been accompanied by his better half despite the additional costs involved.  Makes it a costly trip for mom and dad to watch their son. Another example of why I'd love to see a change of venue to somewhere that could still provide a great experience to the athletes, but also make it a little easier for the families and other fans in terms of time, distance, and dollars.

[AndOne]

The ideal solution would be for a smaller city, perhaps one a little further east that has good interstate highway and airport access (i.e., Akron or Toledo or Erie or Canton) to step up and put in a bid to host.

You've spent time crunching the numbers, haven't you? I just dumped the cities of all 408 active D3 members for 2012-13 into geomidpoint.com. Using their three calculation methods I got:

(Center of minimum distance): Central/Eastern Pennsylvania along I-80 between State College and Youngstown, OH
(Average lattitude/longitude): Mansfield, OH (about an hour's drive from both Canton and Akron)
(Center of gravity): Northern Ohio along Lake Erie (and I-80/90) between Cleveland and Toledo.

Since 1975, the D3 basketball championship has been won by teams from a total of only 14 states. The states and the number of times a team from that state are as follows:

Wisconsin--10
Illinois-------6
Ohio---------4
Penn---------3
NY------------3
Michigan-----2
Missouri-----2
Mass---------2
Indiana------1
Minn---------1
Tenn---------1
Virginia------1
NJ------------1
Wash DC----1

http://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/usa-maps/USA-Major-Cities.jpg

The 6 state area of MN. WI, IL, IN, OH, & MI has won a combined of the 38 championships. State schools have won 12 of the 38 or 31.6%, including 10 from schools in Wisconsin. Would many people be surprised if this trend continued? If the Finals are ever moved from Salem, it seems northern IN, southeast WI, or northeast IL would be the areas that would most likely be relatively close to the ultimate champion, and possibly other members of the Final Four as well. The above mentioned reference points in PA and OH seem too far east (says the guy from IL         )