MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AO]

St. Thomas 1050 Miles 19 hours
UW-Whitewater 760 miles 14 hours
UW-Steven's Point  910 Miles 16 hours
Illinois Wesleyan 650 Miles 12 hours
Wash U 680 Miles 11 1/2 hours
Hope 680 Miles 12 hours
Calvin 650 Miles 11 1/2 hours

I understand it's difficult driving along the East Coast, but if you are heading straight West, it may be a bit easier.  Middlebury for example would drive for 10 hours to Akron instead of 12 to Salem.  Williams trip would be an hour shorter.


Why would the attendance numbers in the East Coast box scores be less indicative than MidWest box scores?  Why would the East Coast fan bases be more likely to jump on the bandwagon and expand for the playoff run?  The Midwest powers also tend to have larger enrollments so it's not as if there's more natural room for the eastern schools to expand. I'm sure if you take a very small sample you could come up with some odd results, but when you compare by conference as the NCAA does you're going to get a better picture of who has the biggest fanbase.  Only 5 average more than 600 with 5th place NCAC extending the farthest East.

Shouldn't a national championship move around just a bit?  I think we've established that Salem is difficult to get to from most of the schools that make the final four.  I don't think we'd be trampling on the d3 ideal if 3 games out of how ever many thousand required a flight to Atlanta or another city not in the geographical center of D3.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

AO - you are basically proving Sager's and my point... the Northeast schools are just as far as many of the schools you mentioned. And it would appear that moving the games to Ohio would actually not benefit the Northeast as much as the schools you mentioned. Yes, it might be "easier", but an hour shorter trip is still a long trip.

We aren't indicating that East Coast box scores are less indicative than Midwest... we are indicating that trying to make an argument about attendance at a championship weekend based on numbers from schools during the regular season is a flawed argument. Those attendance stats are flawed and for many are not even based on an actual head count. SID's don't count at all, under estimate, over estimate, or throw a number on the wall and see if it sticks. How can you actually predict attendance at any Final Four location based on numbers that are sometimes just put on a box score to fill in the blank (you might find some schools whose attendance is "0" for home games because SID's don't care about adding it).

Secondly, I am not saying East Coast fan basses are more likely to jump on the bandwagon and expand for the playoff run. I am saying for ALL schools that there are times when students don't get to a lot of regular season games due to other commitments and such. I am also saying that for ALL schools hosting games in the tournament actually cuts out their fans from attending. They are not allocated every ticket for the gymnasium... they have to split them between the other three schools. This automatically means some in the fan base can't go to the games... and will result in bigger numbers at a championship weekend with a bigger gymnasium.

And why would it be bad that people jump on the bandwagon? Furthermore, why won't you consider that all of the sudden a ton of fans want to go the the Final Four? Again... stats in the regular season wouldn't compensate for this fact.

As for a national championship moving around... it depends. Can you imagine if the D1 baseball championship wasn't held in Omaha? That is the mecca for D1 baseball and I think everyone would be disappointed if it moved. That being said, I do think it has been cool that the D3 women's tournament has gone to Hope and Illinois Wesleyan (and back to Hope) and has shown off a few different places. There is no true answer to that question... but saying championships should move around is pushing it a bit. If a tradition has been created intentionally or not... it would be strange to move it for some.

Finally... no one is saying the championship should stay in Salem forever. I personally am saying that if another bid is created that is worth moving from Salem... I will support it. I will be saddened that it left Salem, but I am willing to try a new location if the NCAA feels the same. However, I am NOT for putting the game in a place like Atlanta, Chicago, Indy, etc. because those cities are FAR too big for D3. We don't want to be swallowed up by a city... when a medium sized city/town like a Salem/Roanoke or others have been the perfect fit.

[AO]

You're right, it's not a bad thing to jump on the bandwagon, I just didn't consider it compelling evidence of East Coast fan bases being just as large as the Midwest fan bases.    You're also right that it's difficult to predict attendance at a final four location when the two schools being compared are both a long drive from the gym.  If the travel times for St. Thomas and Middlebury were reversed, maybe Middlebury would travel just as well at 19 hours as they do at 12 hours.   My point was the evidence is very compelling that the Midwest does draw better crowds, indicative of larger amounts of fans.  The sometimes flawed attendance statistics would be flawed for all regions equally.  But when you take a large enough sample size and the results are as overwhelming as they are, it's clear that the Midwest does get more in the gym.  Maybe the East Coast schools tend to be in the larger cities being "swallowed up", I don't know.

I don't think D3 players are concerned with being "swallowed up" in a larger city.  You can be treated very well at restaurants or hotels in larger cities regardless of whether you're the only game in town or not.  I was down in Dallas for the FCS championship the same weekend of the Cotton Bowl.  The Cotton Bowl was the front page on the local news, but the suburb of Plano where the FCS game was did an amazing job for the lesser known championship.

[Just Bill]

By "solicit bids", do you mean NCAA committee members calling around and asking school X to put in a bid? No, that doesn't happen. I suppose if a committee member had a friend at another school he might call and say "Have you considered bidding for this event?" But generally, no, the committee members take the bids that come to them.

Bidding for championships in all sports is done on a timeline established by the NCAA and all NCAA schools are well aware of it (or should be). They send out reminder e-mails when deadlines approach and happily answer the phone if a school has questions.

You start be filling out a crazy-long internet form. It has sections for just about everything you can think of: Playing facilities, practice facilities, athletic training, locker rooms, sports information, broadcasting capabilities, hotels, budget, staffing, volunteers, media, airports, ground transportation, banquet facilities, hospitals off the top of my head.

If the bid is for a pre-finals round, that's about it for the host school's submission. The NCAA committee might call and ask questions if they need clarification, but essentially they wait until the committee makes their decision according to the timeline. That might be during the championship season (like basketball) or pre-determined in advance (like baseball).

If it's a finals event, then a site visit by members of the championships committee is likely. They'll come to campus 12 months or more in advance to see the facility for themselves and meet the athletic staff involved. Then they'll come to a decision. In D-I, these visits can sometimes get silly, with bands and cheerleaders and hi-def jumbotron presentations, but in D-III it's usually a straight forward walkthrough and meetings with athletic staff, school administrators and maybe the local visitors/convention bureau.

Also, past hosts are not exempted from the bid process. They have to go through the same procedure every time the bid is opened.

[AndOne]

Just Bill---

Thank you for the above information. I definitely learned something.
However, with regard to the discussion over the last several pages concerning the location of the D3 basketball finals, I believe we are focusing on a bid from a municipality looking to host the finals rather than an individual school doing so.

[Just Bill]

Just Bill---

Thank you for the above information. I definitely learned something.
However, with regard to the discussion over the last several pages concerning the location of the D3 basketball finals, I believe we are focusing on a bid from a municipality looking to host the finals rather than an individual school doing so.

It doesn't matter, it's the same process. A municipality or visitors/convention bureau can't submit a bid by themselves. There must be a school or a conference office they are working with. The school/conference is ultimately the host and must submit the bid. In the case of Salem, the ODAC is the host.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Thank you Just Bill... saved me a few emails to lock up the details .

[AndOne]

READER POLL

What's your take on playing the men's title game at the D-I Final Four?

Let's do it every year (1071) 46%

It's OK to do it once, but no more (199) 8%

If it works, let's keep doing it (597) 25%

Bad idea (460) 19%

*****************************************************************************************************************************
While it almost assuredly won't mean diddly squat to the NCAA or any other powers that be, the D3Hoops Reader Poll shows that fully 71% of D3Hoops voters on the issue favor either permanently holding the D3 basketball finals in conjunction with the D1 Final Four, or doing so if next year's trial proves successful.
While nearly every poster who sounded off on the subject gives Salem high marks for providing a meaningful and memorable experience for the Final Four student-athletes, there is no doubt that it isn't the easiest place to reach.
Its a long, long way from the vast majority of the country, and even a long way from places such as NY and MA.

As far as holding the D3 Finals within either a big city or suburban area, airfare cost would almost certainly be lower. Hotel costs may be higher, but could be held down somewhat by either a block reservation agreement between the NCAA and/or host school/conference, by individual fans memberships in organizations such as the AAA which has a reduced rate agreement with the major chains, or by going through web sites such as Priceline.com or Hotels.com. I doubt media coverage would suffer much, if at all. Yes, there are many happenings in a big city, and many stories for the media to cover, but why can't the NCAA or the host conference/school stir up a little interest through their local print media or possibly through TV/radio. And, we always have coverage available through D3Hoops. 

I'm not saying a long term association with the D1 Final Four is necessarily the best solution. A single location such as Salem might be best. There are certainly proponents of both. However, lets give next year's Finals a chance before we criticize it too heavily now. Yes, its "attached" to Division 1 which we all know is is very capable of failure of institutional integrity at any moment, but our D3 Finals are still a separate entity despite being held on the same weekend. If the D3 Final Four is going to remain at a single "permanent" location lets hope it can somehow be more centrally located and more easily accessible. While Salem does provide a great student-athlete experience, I bet someplace else could also do a fine job. And, as I said, lets give next year's setup a chance. We won't really know how it works until the experience actually takes place.

Lastly, lets give ourselves some credit. While the above referenced Reader Poll carries no weight, who is both more knowledgeable and enthusiastic in support of D3 sports, and who better to know what might ultimately be the best solution? One thing is obvious, and thats the feeling by many that some type of change might be very beneficial. JMHO. Thanks for reading. 

[AndOne]

HELP PLEASE!

Does anyone know what the h is with the stupid <-----------> slide bar at the end of my above post?
Private message?
Thanks.

[NCF]

READER POLL

What's your take on playing the men's title game at the D-I Final Four?

Let's do it every year (1071) 46%

It's OK to do it once, but no more (199) 8%

If it works, let's keep doing it (597) 25%

Bad idea (460) 19%

*****************************************************************************************************************************
While it almost assuredly won't mean diddly squat to the NCAA or any other powers that be, the D3Hoops Reader Poll shows that fully 71% of D3Hoops voters on the issue favor either permanently holding the D3 basketball finals in conjunction with the D1 Final Four, or doing so if next year's trial proves successful.
While nearly every poster who sounded off on the subject gives Salem high marks for providing a meaningful and memorable experience for the Final Four student-athletes, there is no doubt that it isn't the easiest place to reach.
Its a long, long way from the vast majority of the country, and even a long way from places such as NY and MA.

As far as holding the D3 Finals within either a big city or suburban area, airfare cost would almost certainly be lower. Hotel costs may be higher, but could be held down somewhat by either a block reservation agreement between the NCAA and/or host school/conference, by individual fans memberships in organizations such as the AAA which has a reduced rate agreement with the major chains, or by going through web sites such as Priceline.com or Hotels.com. I doubt media coverage would suffer much, if at all. Yes, there are many happenings in a big city, and many stories for the media to cover, but why can't the NCAA or the host conference/school stir up a little interest through their local print media or possibly through TV/radio. And, we always have coverage available through D3Hoops. 

I'm not saying a long term association with the D1 Final Four is necessarily the best solution. A single location such as Salem might be best. There are certainly proponents of both. However, lets give next year's Finals a chance before we criticize it too heavily now. Yes, its "attached" to Division 1 which we all know is is very capable of failure of institutional integrity at any moment, but our D3 Finals are still a separate entity despite being held on the same weekend. If the D3 Final Four is going to remain at a single "permanent" location lets hope it can somehow be more centrally located and more easily accessible. While Salem does provide a great student-athlete experience, I bet someplace else could also do a fine job. And, as I said, lets give next year's setup a chance. We won't really know how it works until the experience actually takes place.

Lastly, lets give ourselves some credit. While the above referenced Reader Poll carries no weight, who is both more knowledgeable and enthusiastic in support of D3 sports, and who better to know what might ultimately be the best solution? One thing is obvious, and thats the feeling by many that some type of change might be very beneficial. JMHO. Thanks for reading. 

Great post! I am looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. I am hoping for the best!

[pg04]

HELP PLEASE!

Does anyone know what the h is with the stupid <-----------> slide bar at the end of my above post?
Private message?
Thanks.

l think it's probably due to the number of *s you put in the post. I would guess it has something to do with the effect * has on html codes, etc. Not exactly sure, most everything else would have just gone to the next line.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

AndOne - You have some valid points, but just some things to keep in mind:

- The reader's poll was posted and voted on primarily by people BEFORE the schedule was even talked about for the upcoming season. There have been posters through out the boards that have since the schedule came out that the fact teams in the championship are playing six games in six weeks (and others five in four, etc.) takes away from thinking the final game is all that great.

- Moving the championship game to the same location and weekend as the D1 Final Four will force several things to the schedule that have to be dealt with:
   - moving the end of the D3 regular season to accommodate shortening the post-season to what it should be: two games a weekend that even D1 accommodates
   - this will mean moving the beginning of the season later in the year, say early December, which means teams will play four games at best before finals... probably not worth starting a season only to take a quick break right afterward
   - what you decide for the men... you are going to have to decide for the women... NOT because of Title IX, but because I can NOT imagine school presidents (remember, they are the ones who run things in D3, unlike D1 where money runs things) are going to want two different basketball seasons starting and ending at two different times with championships seperated by three weeks. Conferences certainly at not going to want to have different schedules completely scrubbing away double-headers.

- While you don't think local media in a major market will ignore the championships... and yes, the NCAA would certainly push for attention... I am telling you having been in the media in a #26 market... it is going to be a tough sell. Remember also, budget constraints have cut-back on newspaper, television, and radio coverage of many things... this would feel that affect as well. Certainly the media may care the first or second year, but will lose interest, especially if a local team isn't involved, as time wears on.

- Let's not use next year as a barometer. Being that is the 75th Anniversary of Men's Basketball in the NCAA, there will automatically be more attention and more recognition. The fact for the first time all three games will be played in the same city will have a novelty to it. All of that combines to what will certainly be a great experience and probably plenty of attention (though, I doubt the games make the highlight reels of ESPN or the like because of this). When you don't have those driving forces behind the games you aren't going to have the same response or interest.

- And again... if someone wants to bid on the process and get the games to come to another "centrally" located place on the map... go for it. You don't seem to understand we all are saying that if someone else gets the bid we will look forward to seeing the games at that location. You have to understand that by saying everything Salem has going for them, we are pointing out that a new bid has a huge bar to rise to... should they do it and the NCAA moves the location... we will all be there as well. But before we can really talk about moving the games somewhere... someone or group has got to put in a bid that is worth discussing or, for the NCAA, consider. Until that happens - or Salem and the ODAC decide enough is enough - this is a conversation that is going to go no where.

[realist]

Just Bill---

Thank you for the above information. I definitely learned something.
However, with regard to the discussion over the last several pages concerning the location of the D3 basketball finals, I believe we are focusing on a bid from a municipality looking to host the finals rather than an individual school doing so.

It doesn't matter, it's the same process. A municipality or visitors/convention bureau can't submit a bid by themselves. There must be a school or a conference office they are working with. The school/conference is ultimately the host and must submit the bid. In the case of Salem, the ODAC is the host.

In the not too distant past the MIAA supposedly put in a bid to have the D3 finals in Grand Rapids
at the Delta Plex (very similar to the Salem site).  From what I recall hearing at the time it took considerable time and effort to submit a bid, and the site was visited so one has to think it (the bid) got serious consideration.  I am not a fan of bball played in hockey rinks, and wasn't excited about the Delta Plex for that reason.  I also recall in the 80's when Calvin hosted the finals a number of years, and the main comment at that time was "it's a lot of work".  The one positive from that experience was the Calvin players got a chance to see first hand what it took to become a final 4 caliber program. As I recall the first several years the "D 3 locals" were presnt, but the novelty quickly wore off.

[Gregory Sager]

I also recall in the 80's when Calvin hosted the finals a number of years, and the main comment at that time was "it's a lot of work".  The one positive from that experience was the Calvin players got a chance to see first hand what it took to become a final 4 caliber program. As I recall the first several years the "D 3 locals" were presnt, but the novelty quickly wore off.

That might be another reason why the championship-game attendance dropped off 25% from North Park's first Final Four trip to Grand Rapids in '85 to its second trip in '87.

[Gregory Sager]

North Park will have a graduate assistant on the staff this season, Sean Connor. He's coached locally on the AAU level, so he should be a real asset on the recruiting front for the Park.

NPU has added one transfer thus far with whose name I can go public. He's Maxwell Morgan, a 6'3 junior out of Lincoln (NE) Northeast HS by way of Rochester (MN) Community College. He's mostly played the two wing positions, but he has the wingspan, athleticism, and versatility to play inside as well if need be.

The NPU coaching staff is still working on several more possible transfers, and with the start of classes coming up on August 27 I should have more news soon about that (knock on wood).