MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

Enjoyed the above banter between Titan Q and Greg Sager regarding new North Park players Cassita and Weaver, especially Greg's assertion that TQ was excessive in his use of adjectives to describe one of the players.

The 26 yr old Cassita has played at no less than 3 schools since his high school days, while the traditionally college aged Weaver has already gotten off the bus at 2 separate JUCO stops.

In an attempt to escape being labeled as too verbose, perhaps an applicable description of the twosome might be:

Have Gun............Will Travel      

[AndOne]

My best shot at a preseason All-CCIW team...

1st Team
Victor Davis (Illinois Wesleyan), 6-5 Jr F
Landon Gamble (North Central), 6-6 Jr F
Mark Holmes (North Park), 6-6 Sr F
Malcom Kelly (Carthage), 6-0 Sr G
Derek Raridon (North Central), 6-6 Sr F

2nd Team
Mike Gabriel (North Park), 6-8 Sr F
Luke Johnson (Carthage), 6-9 So C
Tyler Peters (Wheaton), 6-4 Jr G
Nick Sanford (Elmhurst), 6-5 Jr F
Aaron Tiknis (North Central), 6-6 Jr F

3rd Team
Kevin Reed (Illinois Wesleyan), 6-7 Sr F
Mark Roth (Augustana), 6-0 So G
Brayden Teuscher (Wheaton), 6-3 So G
Mitch Thompson (Carthage), 6-6 Sr F
Andrew Ziemnik (Illinois Wesleyan), 6-4 Jr F

If North Park finishes 7th or 8th as the coaches poll result evidently expects them to, I sincerely doubt they will place a player on both the 1st and 2nd team. However, it is hard to argue that both Holmes and Gabriel are among the league's best.

Also, while Wesleyan's Victor Davis is one of the elite players in the league, its a bit illogical to place him above North Central's Aaron Tiknis on the CCIW totem pole. As evidence of that fact, reference is made to last season's CCIW statistics which reveal the following results:

FT%--------------Davis 14th, Tiknis does not appear among the leaders
Scoring-----------Tiknis 7th, Davis 14th
FG%--------------Tiknis 2nd, Davis 12th
O Rebounds------Tiknis tied for 12th, Davis does not appear
D Rebounds------Tiknis 2nd, Davis does not appear
Tot Rebs---------Tiknis 4th, Davis 17th
3 pt FGs made---Tiknis tied for 6th, Davis does not appear
3 pt FG%---------Tiknis 2nd, Davis does not appear
Assists------------Tiknis 3rd, Davis does not appear
Blocks------------Tiknis tied for 2nd, Davis does not appear

Wherever Victor Davis is among the league's upper echelon, its clear that Aaron Tiknis is a superior overall player. 

[Titan Q]

Also, while Wesleyan's Victor Davis is one of the elite players in the league, its a bit illogical to place him above North Central's Aaron Tiknis on the CCIW totem pole. As evidence of that fact, reference is made to last season's CCIW statistics which reveal the following results:

FT%--------------Davis 14th, Tiknis does not appear among the leaders
Scoring-----------Tiknis 7th, Davis 14th
FG%--------------Tiknis 2nd, Davis 12th
O Rebounds------Tiknis tied for 12th, Davis does not appear
D Rebounds------Tiknis 2nd, Davis does not appear
Tot Rebs---------Tiknis 4th, Davis 17th
3 pt FGs made---Tiknis tied for 6th, Davis does not appear
3 pt FG%---------Tiknis 2nd, Davis does not appear
Assists------------Tiknis 3rd, Davis does not appear
Blocks------------Tiknis tied for 2nd, Davis does not appear

Wherever Victor Davis is among the league's upper echelon, its clear that Aaron Tiknis is a superior overall player.

Tiknis is a really good player and could certainly end up on a higher all-CCIW team than Victor Davis.  But just to clarify, in making a preseason all-CCIW team, I'm essentially projecting how I think players will perform in 2012-13...and not simply rewarding for 2011-12 performance.  In the case of Victor Davis, I believe he is poised to make that sophomore-to-junior leap that so many players do.

Victor Davis was very good in IWU's NCAA tournament run to the Final Four last year...

vs UW-Stevens Point: 11 pts, 3 reb
@ Hope: 17 pts, 7 reb
@ Wooster: 18 pts, 3 reb
vs Wittenberg: 8 pts, 4 reb
vs Cabrini: 14 pts, 5 reb


He made some big plays against great teams, in tough environments.  In watching those games, I saw some things from Davis on both sides of the ball that made me think he has a chance to be a great player as a junior and senior.  On the offensive end, it was not only the big shots he made, but also the shots he had the guts to take in huge situations.  (The 3-pointer he made against Hope down 2 with 1:30 or so left in OT, with 3600 people in the building, was one of those shots.)  And in talking to people close to IWU's program, it sounds like Davis is even bigger/stronger than he was as a sophomore -- and he was already a strong kid last year.

In addition to predicting a big step up from Davis this year, I considered opportunity.  Victor Davis is going to be "the guy" for IWU this year with Jordan Zimmer gone - the offense is going to flow through him to a large degree.  Tiknis will probably be a 3rd option offensively, maybe 4th if a perimeter scorer emerges for NCC.  It's just really hard for 3 players on the same team to stand out as 1st Teamers and obviously NCC has Landon Gamble and Derek Raridon who are safe bets on the 1st Team.  So I just think there is a good chance that Davis has more opportunity to produce like a 1st Teamer than Tiknis.

Those are the thoughts that went into me putting Davis ahead of Tiknis.  I could certainly end up being wrong.

[Gregory Sager]

Enjoyed the above banter between Titan Q and Greg Sager regarding new North Park players Cassita and Weaver, especially Greg's assertion that TQ was excessive in his use of adjectives to describe one of the players.

The 26 yr old Cassita has played at no less than 3 schools since his high school days, while the traditionally college aged Weaver has already gotten off the bus at 2 separate JUCO stops.

In an attempt to escape being labeled as too verbose, perhaps an applicable description of the twosome might be:

Have Gun............Will Travel      

That whole Kyle Julius episode has really scarred you, hasn't it, Mark?

I don't really know much about either Weaver or Cassita on a personal level, having only met them briefly. I don't know what prompted them to attend multiple schools earlier in their lives, and I'm not sure that it's even pertinent at this point. I'm certainly not going to make any assumptions about either one of them, or draw any conclusions from their past educational history.

They're both older students. While it's certainly not always true, "older" often means "wiser" as well. Absent any personal evidence either way, it's as valid a reading of them as the one to which you seem to be pointing.

[Gregory Sager]

With regard to Aaron Tiknis, past evidence and common sense indicate that the eight head coaches in this league are not slaves to scoring stats when it comes to doling out All-CCIW awards. It's pretty clear to me that they recognize and reward outstanding effort in more categories than mere scoring. I don't think that the fact that Tiknis has multiple teammates who're likely to score a lot of points, as compared to Victor Davis, would hold Tiknis back from receiving All-CCIW first-team status at the end of the year if his 2012-13 campaign would follow in the path of 2011-12, seeing as how it would mean that he's a year better and a senior, to boot.

[AndOne]

Also, while Wesleyan's Victor Davis is one of the elite players in the league, its a bit illogical to place him above North Central's Aaron Tiknis on the CCIW totem pole. As evidence of that fact, reference is made to last season's CCIW statistics which reveal the following results:

FT%--------------Davis 14th, Tiknis does not appear among the leaders
Scoring-----------Tiknis 7th, Davis 14th
FG%--------------Tiknis 2nd, Davis 12th
O Rebounds------Tiknis tied for 12th, Davis does not appear
D Rebounds------Tiknis 2nd, Davis does not appear
Tot Rebs---------Tiknis 4th, Davis 17th
3 pt FGs made---Tiknis tied for 6th, Davis does not appear
3 pt FG%---------Tiknis 2nd, Davis does not appear
Assists------------Tiknis 3rd, Davis does not appear
Blocks------------Tiknis tied for 2nd, Davis does not appear

Wherever Victor Davis is among the league's upper echelon, its clear that Aaron Tiknis is a superior overall player.

Tiknis is a really good player and could certainly end up on a higher all-CCIW team than Victor Davis.  But just to clarify, in making a preseason all-CCIW team, I'm essentially projecting how I think players will perform in 2012-13...and not simply rewarding for 2011-12 performance.  In the case of Victor Davis, I believe he is poised to make that sophomore-to-junior leap that so many players do.

Victor Davis was very good in IWU's NCAA tournament run to the Final Four last year...

vs UW-Stevens Point: 11 pts, 3 reb
@ Hope: 17 pts, 7 reb
@ Wooster: 18 pts, 3 reb
vs Wittenberg: 8 pts, 4 reb
vs Cabrini: 14 pts, 5 reb


He made some big plays against great teams, in tough environments.  In watching those games, I saw some things from Davis on both sides of the ball that made me think he has a chance to be a great player as a junior and senior.  On the offensive end, it was not only the big shots he made, but also the shots he had the guts to take in huge situations.  (The 3-pointer he made against Hope down 2 with 1:30 or so left in OT, with 3600 people in the building, was one of those shots.)  And in talking to people close to IWU's program, it sounds like Davis is even bigger/stronger than he was as a sophomore -- and he was already a strong kid last year.

In addition to predicting a big step up from Davis this year, I considered opportunity.  Victor Davis is going to be "the guy" for IWU this year with Jordan Zimmer gone - the offense is going to flow through him to a large degree.  Tiknis will probably be a 3rd option offensively, maybe 4th if a perimeter scorer emerges for NCC.  It's just really hard for 3 players on the same team to stand out as 1st Teamers and obviously NCC has Landon Gamble and Derek Raridon who are safe bets on the 1st Team.  So I just think there is a good chance that Davis has more opportunity to produce like a 1st Teamer than Tiknis.

Those are the thoughts that went into me putting Davis ahead of Tiknis.  I could certainly end up being wrong.

And you could certainly end up being right if for no other reason than its not really practical to believe there is even a remote chance that 3 players from the same team would make the all-conference 1st team. I'd doubt that has ever happened or ever will as there are just too many good players. Also, I don't think the other 7 coaches would ever be willing to say, through their votes, that one team was so superior to all the others that they deserve 3 players on the 1st team. I think about the best one team can hope for is to have 4 players elected to the (entire) all-conference team as North Central had happen last season.

My argument was/is, that to this point, Aaron has been a superior overall player than has Victor. And, I was using actual achieved, season long statistics as evidence of that position as opposed to subjective future projections, Davis' performance in the NCAA tourney notwithstanding.

Additionally, if we're incorporating projections into our picks as well as past performance, it would be easy to project that Aaron may indeed not do quite as well as he did last year given the fact that is is not "the man" for NCC  as Victor apparently will be for the Weenies. But, given the fact he is likely the 3rd option as opposed to being that man, I think it makes his achievements that much more impressive. Applying your logic, it would be easy to project Aaron might achieve even more impressive results this coming season than he did last year if he was indeed, "the man" for the Cardinals.

[kenoshamark]

AndOne,

As far as having three players all make first team, it did happen in 2002.   Carthage had Wiertel, Garnes and McDaniel all make it.   Carthage won the conference going 13 - 1.  Not sure if it has happened with any other team but that was a special team with three very special players....certainly was warranted as I don't see how any of them could have been left off that year.

[Titan Q]

And you could certainly end up being right if for no other reason than its not really practical to believe there is even a remote chance that 3 players from the same team would make the all-conference 1st team. I'd doubt that has ever happened or ever will as there are just too many good players.

It last happened in 2001-02, with Jason Wiertel, Antoine McDaniel, and Rob Garnes (Carthage).


http://www.cciw.org/sports/2010/6/8/MBB_0608101910.aspx?id=532

[Titan Q]

AndOne,

As far as having three players all make first team, it did happen in 2002.   Carthage had Wiertel, Garnes and McDaniel all make it.   Carthage won the conference going 13 - 1.  Not sure if it has happened with any other team but that was a special team with three very special players....certainly was warranted as I don't see how any of them could have been left off that year.

Or what Mark said.

[AndOne]

Thanks for the history. I began following the league in 04-05. I have definitely heard of those players. They must have been awesome together. Chances of it happening again must be very slim

[Gregory Sager]

Wheaton, 1957-58
Don Anderson
Bill Gerig
Mel Peterson
Bob Whitehead

Wheaton, 1958-59
Don Anderson
Mel Peterson
Bob Whitehead

Millikin, 1967-68
Jerry Hill
Jesse Price
Jack Sunderlik

North Park, 1979-80
Modzel Greer
Michael Harper
Michael Thomas

North Park, 1984-85
Lars Anderson
Ernie Hubbard
Justyne Monegain

Carthage, 2001-02
Rob Garnes
Antoine McDaniel
Jason Wiertel

These are just the ones I could find in a couple of minutes' worth of searching. (I already knew about the most recent three, all of which I saw firsthand.)

[AndOne]

Enjoyed the above banter between Titan Q and Greg Sager regarding new North Park players Cassita and Weaver, especially Greg's assertion that TQ was excessive in his use of adjectives to describe one of the players.

The 26 yr old Cassita has played at no less than 3 schools since his high school days, while the traditionally college aged Weaver has already gotten off the bus at 2 separate JUCO stops.

In an attempt to escape being labeled as too verbose, perhaps an applicable description of the twosome might be:

Have Gun............Will Travel      

That whole Kyle Julius episode has really scarred you, hasn't it, Mark?

I don't really know much about either Weaver or Cassita on a personal level, having only met them briefly. I don't know what prompted them to attend multiple schools earlier in their lives, and I'm not sure that it's even pertinent at this point. I'm certainly not going to make any assumptions about either one of them, or draw any conclusions from their past educational history.

They're both older students. While it's certainly not always true, "older" often means "wiser" as well. Absent any personal evidence either way, it's as valid a reading of them as the one to which you seem to be pointing.

Greg--

To answer your question, its the whole excessive transfer situation. That was one good example.

And when I read articles every off season about all these high school kids who transfer schools seemingly almost every season and end up attending at least 2 schools, and often 3, during their 4 years of high school, I become even more apprehensive. My investigator background kicks in, and questions arise. Is the transfer academically or athletically motivated (the answer is often obvious)? Who is behind it? If the kid is above board, why is he continually moving? Is the kid just gullible? Is he disruptive either during the academic day or in practice? Is he selfish--a me 1st player who cares little about team play and only about padding his stats? Is he really that skilled? If so, why aren't his numbers higher, and does he think a transfer will somehow make his numbers higher and thus make him a "better player"? And, if these questions are valid with regard to HS kids, why aren't they also applicable  to college kids? You just have to wonder what the hell is going on behind the scenes? Be mindful that we're not talking about a kid who goes into the military for several years before beginning his college career. Or, even a kid who goes to (the same) junior college for 2 yrs and then transfers to a 4 yr school to complete his last 2 years of classes and athletic eligibility.

I'm not saying there is or will be any problem with either of these NPU kids. However, in his several years since HS, Cassita has attended no less than THREE different schools. In his two years since HS, Weaver has attended the same number of JUCOs. Just seems those situations would cause a yellow light to go on if not a red one. Correspondingly, it would seem to indicate that such effusive praise, prior to the demonstration of any actual success at this level, might best be restrained if not withheld for at least the time being.      

[Titan Q]

IWU scrimmages @ Olivet Nazarene this evening.  I believe IWU is starting...

G - Dylan Overstreet, 6-3 So.
G - Pat Sodemann, 6-3 So. (transfer from D2 Truman State)
F - Andrew Ziemnik, 6-4 Jr.
F - Victor Davis, 6-5 Jr.
F - Kevin Reed, 6-7 Sr.

It sounds like PG David Molinari and SG Brady Zimmer are dealing with injuries and will not play.

[Titan Q]

Rough timeframe for the IWU/ONU scrimmage is...

6:00pm - halfcourt drills (IWU offense vs ONU defense, etc)

6:45pm - scrimmage begins (varsity vs varsity, JV vs JV - different gyms)

[iwu70]

Q, sorry to hear of the Titan injuries, still.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if that line-up you mentioned is what we see as the starting five for the Titans, come mid-November.  Sure hope Molinari and Zimmer are able to get fully healthy. If not, makes the Titans alot less deep in the back court.  Perhaps the rotation does then include Oswald, Dortch, Musselman and Anderson.  Time will tell . . . and time is getting much shorter now before true tip-off.

IWU70