MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

Hope must be one of the nation's most surprising teams.

On this date one year ago, future CCIW Champion and Sweet 16 team North Central was 5-5 under circumstances very similar to what Hope has faced against a schedule no where near as difficult. 

Yes sir, your are correct. But, in comparing the two teams, the major difference that I believe your statement overlooks is the fact that much more was initially expected of this year's Hope team than was of last year's North Central squad. At the beginning of last year, the jury was still out on NCC, while the verdict on Hope had already been delivered when the current season began.

And yes, I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see Hope win the conference. However, if NVA doesn't show improvement, and, especially, if Snuggerud indeed continues to have a dysfunctional back, the climb will be a much more difficult one. 

[AndOne]

And this from the Great Lakes Region/MIAA room re Hope:

Quote from: northb on Yesterday at 09:30:49 pm
Quote from: hoopdreams on Yesterday at 05:25:35 pm
And1- I asked the other day to no avail about Snuggs.  My guess is health, he has an old mans back (no disrespect to anyone).  As also previously mentioned, NVA simply isn't very good, even in the fleeting moments he stays out of foul trouble.  Maybe MN IS spending the trip working on player development for his bench or........So, so close on my starting 5 guess nearing conference play. 

Just saw the box score, wow.....

Just spoke with someone close to situation to find out about PT for one individual in particular ...wow, wow,wow

And they said.....??!!!!!!!

I hear Snuggs health is not the issue, word is that the coach is trying to shake things up and several players - not just those that appear to be underperforming - are confused and unhappy.

[Titan Q]

Scott Curry's (aka "sac") blog entry on the Hope/IWU game...

http://scottsbbblog.blogspot.com

"So yeah, the dream match-up that didn't take place in Salem, Virginia in 1996 has taken place twice in 9 months.   Double overtime thriller and 1 point game decided on the final play."


All these years later, I'm still disappointed we didn't get to see the Simich/Crabtree Titans play the Bosma/Holstege Dutchmen for the national championship.  Would have been a classic, I'm sure.

[iwu70]

Merry Christmas to all the D3 chatsters, especially my CCIW and IWU friends and comrades.  May your Christmas be blessed and festive.   

IWU70

[Titan Q]

Not quite sure if I got Hope's starters right, but here's what that personnel from 1995-96 looked like...

Hope, 1995-96 (27-5/11-1 MIAA 1st place)
G - Joel Hostege, 6-2 So (13.2 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 5.2 apg)
G - Kevin Brintnell, 5-11 Sr (11.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 2.7 apg)
G - Dan Van Hekken, 6-3 So (5.6 ppg, 2.7 rpg)
F - Kris Merritt, 6-5 So (9.6 ppg, 6.0 rpg)
C - Duane Bosma, 6-9 Sr (17.6 ppg, 8.7 rpg)

Illinois Wesleyan, 1995-96 (28-3, 12-2 CCIW 2nd place)
G - Brady Knight, 6-2 Sr (6.9 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.5 apg)
G - T.J. Posey, 6-3 Sr (8.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 4.1 apg)
F - Bryan Crabtree, 6-7 Jr (17.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg)
F - Chris Simich, 6-6 Sr (19.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg)
C - Jon Litwiller, 6-7 Sr (12.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg)


Many IWU fans consider this to be the best non-Sikma IWU team...in the discussion with the 1987-88 team (Jeff Kuehl, Mark Edmundson, Paul Peterson, Ron Rose, Bill Braksick) and the 1994-95 team (swap out the guards above with Chad Hutson and Mark Aubry).  It always takes a while before someone actually brings up the team that actually won the national championship - the 1996-97 team.

Not only did IWU have two of the best players in NCAA Division III in Chris Simich and Bryan Crabtree, but the Titans had Jon Litwiller starting at center (who started for Division I Illinois State), and Scott Peterson as the 6th man (another Division I transfer, from Northern Illinois).

I think a lot of IWU fans forget that this team didn't win the CCIW.  The Wheaton team featuring Matt Nadelhoffer, Wesley Pitts, Jason Senik, Tim Seneff, etc. went 13-1.  The IWU/Wheaton games from 1994-95 and 1995-96 were classics.

I doubt there is a team in Division III this year with close to as much talent as the Hope, Wheaton, and IWU teams from '95-96.  It's gotten harder for D3 teams to land talent like that. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Re: the 1996 Hope/IWU title game that didn't happen - many forget that the Titans LED with only seconds remaining.  Despite Rowan having two Prop 48 players (one of whom set the all-time scoring record at Fairleigh Dickinson in only 3 years), they could have been beaten.  I'd say more about the match up that SHOULD have occurred (which I have virtually zero doubt IWU would have won), but Greg might throw the flag for unnecessary roughness against Rowan!

And totally agree with Q about the relative ranking of the title team - as I've opined before, I don't think they are even in the top 5 of all-time Titan teams (I'd place the 1996, 2006, 1970, and at least two Jack Sikma teams ahead of them for sure, with a few others in close competition).  Yet more evidence that winning a title takes a good deal of luck as well as a heaping dose of talent!

[Titan Q]

And totally agree with Q about the relative ranking of the title team - as I've opined before, I don't think they are even in the top 5 of all-time Titan teams.  Yet more evidence that winning a title takes a good deal of luck as well as a heaping dose of talent!

Don't put words in my mouth, Chuck.  I didn't say they weren't in the top five of all-time Titan teams.  I've always been a huge defender of that team in the discussion of "best IWU team ever."

Starters...

G - Korey Coon, 6-0 Fr (10.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.1 apg, 49-97 3-point, 59-67 FT)
G - Nathan Hubbard, 6-4 So (5.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 3.7 apg)
F - Bryan Crabtree, 6-7 Sr (22.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg)
F - Brent Niebrugge, 6-4 Jr (12.9 ppg, 6.7 rpg)
C - Andy Boyden, 6-9 Jr (12.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg)

* That team had three eventual 1st Team All-Americans and CCIW M.O.P.'s -- Crabtree (1997 national P.O.Y.), Niebrugge (1998), and Coon (1999, 2000).   

* Bryan Crabtree in 1996-97 was as good as any Division III player I've ever seen -- he was an impossible matchup at this level.  Crabtree led IWU with 28 points against Nebraska Wesleyan.

* Korey Coon, even though just a freshman, was a tremendous PG - took care of the ball and knocked down shots.  He had 17 pts in the national championship game.

* Brent Niebrugge is probably the most underrated IWU player of the last 20 years or so -- it'd be hard to find a player with better footwork and hands around the basket.  He had 25 pts and 11 reb in the title game.

* Nathan Hubbard did a lot of of things extremely well as a sophomore, including being a tremendous passer.

* Andy Boyden was a very skilled big man who could score with either hand...had great touch.

* The bench was strong, led by John Baines and Matt Hoder.  In the Final Four, starting center Andy Boyden didn't play (had mono)...Matt Hoder started both nights, then broke his foot in the title game...the bench was called on for huge minutes.


That was a great basketball team - perfectly balanced and incredibly talented.  They finished 29-2 overall, 13-1 in the CCIW, and won the national championship.  Seems like IWU fans forget how much talent was on that team.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/1997/19970331/active/3413n17.html

[oldknight]

Ron Rose also said something like, "I would be shocked if Hope does not win their league and play in the NCAA tournament."  I'm right there with him...if I had to bet on a team to win the 2013 MIAA race, I'd take Hope without hesitation.

Well maybe CCIW observers would take Hope without hesitation, but I think it's fair to say there are more than a few followers of MIAA hoops who would pause before doing so. In the end, maybe Hope will wind up on top, but I doubt anyone would be shocked if another team--or even two--passes by the Flying Dutchmen.

[sac]

Not quite sure if I got Hope's starters right, but here's what that personnel from 1995-96 looked like...

Hope, 1995-96 (27-5/11-1 MIAA 1st place)
G - Joel Hostege, 6-2 So (13.2 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 5.2 apg)
G - Kevin Brintnell, 5-11 Sr (11.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 2.7 apg)
G - Dan Van Hekken, 6-3 So (5.6 ppg, 2.7 rpg)
F - Kris Merritt, 6-5 So (9.6 ppg, 6.0 rpg)
C - Duane Bosma, 6-9 Sr (17.6 ppg, 8.7 rpg)

I can't remember exactly how they started either, Jeff VanFossen 6-7 F, Marc Whitford 6-3, VanHekken and Merritt kind of traded out the starting spots at the 3 and 4.   Van Hekken did start the NCAA games I just can't remember if the 4 was Merrit or VanFossen.

Hope had two players who received  All-American honors on that team,  Bosma in 96, Holstege in 98

Up to 1996 Hope had never advanced past the 2nd round in the tournament so everything was a new experience for everyone.  Hope's expectations have never really been the same since.

Our tournament run that year, Kzoo in the first round at home, JCU at home who had upset someone.  Sectionals at Wittenberg with Whitewater and Gustavus Adolphus back when they paired regions vs regions for two years.

The last 10 minutes of the Wittenberg game was the most nerve wracking experience Hope fans have probably ever had.  On the road in Springfield a place they had rarely won, watching a nice lead wither away.  The poor women next to me couldn't even watch the game.  I had to reassure her they had won.

Hope 65, Kalamazoo 62 (H)
Hope 80, John Carroll, Ohio 61 (H)
Hope 88, Wisc.-Whitewater 66 (A)
Hope 69, Wittenberg, Ohio 60 (A)
Hope 76, Franklin & Marshall 57 (A)
Rowan 100, Hope 93 (A)

Seems impossible it was 17 years ago.

You might also remember it was Nebraska Wesleyan that eliminated Hope in the Sweet 16 of the 1997 Sectional out in Lincoln the year IWU beat them in Salem.

[Titan Q]

Ron Rose also said something like, "I would be shocked if Hope does not win their league and play in the NCAA tournament."  I'm right there with him...if I had to bet on a team to win the 2013 MIAA race, I'd take Hope without hesitation.

Well maybe CCIW observers would take Hope without hesitation, but I think it's fair to say there are more than a few followers of MIAA hoops who would pause before doing so. In the end, maybe Hope will wind up on top, but I doubt anyone would be shocked if another team--or even two--passes by the Flying Dutchmen.

I won't be shocked either, oldknight...but if I had to pick a winner heading in, I'd take Hope.  I just have a feeling that a) Hope stacks up well talent-wise in the MIAA, b) at some point the Dutchmen will figure things out and put it all together, and c) playing such a strong non-conference schedule will help Hope in league play.

[Mr. Ypsi]

And totally agree with Q about the relative ranking of the title team - as I've opined before, I don't think they are even in the top 5 of all-time Titan teams.  Yet more evidence that winning a title takes a good deal of luck as well as a heaping dose of talent!

Don't put words in my mouth, Chuck.  I didn't say they weren't in the top five of all-time Titan teams.  I've always been a huge defender of that team in the discussion of "best IWU team ever."

Starters...

G - Korey Coon, 6-0 Fr (10.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.1 apg, 49-97 3-point, 59-67 FT)
G - Nathan Hubbard, 6-4 So (5.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 3.7 apg)
F - Bryan Crabtree, 6-7 Sr (22.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg)
F - Brent Niebrugge, 6-4 Jr (12.9 ppg, 6.7 rpg)
C - Andy Boyden, 6-9 Jr (12.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg)

* That team had three eventual 1st Team All-Americans and CCIW M.O.P.'s -- Crabtree (1997 national P.O.Y.), Niebrugge (1998), and Coon (1999, 2000).   

* Bryan Crabtree in 1996-97 was as good as any Division III player I've ever seen -- he was an impossible matchup at this level.  Crabtree led IWU with 28 points against Nebraska Wesleyan.

* Korey Coon, even though just a freshman, was a tremendous PG - took care of the ball and knocked down shots.  He had 17 pts in the national championship game.

* Brent Niebrugge is probably the most underrated IWU player of the last 20 years or so -- it'd be hard to find a player with better footwork and hands around the basket.  He had 25 pts and 11 reb in the title game.

* Nathan Hubbard did a lot of of things extremely well as a sophomore, including being a tremendous passer.

* Andy Boyden was a very skilled big man who could score with either hand...had great touch.

* The bench was strong, led by John Baines and Matt Hoder.  In the Final Four, starting center Andy Boyden didn't play (had mono)...Matt Hoder started both nights, then broke his foot in the title game...the bench was called on for huge minutes.


That was a great basketball team - perfectly balanced and incredibly talented.  They finished 29-2 overall, 13-1 in the CCIW, and won the national championship.  Seems like IWU fans forget how much talent was on that team.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/1997/19970331/active/3413n17.html

Bob, sorry if I implied they were not a great team - they were.  But which among the others I mentioned would you place ahead of them?

1996 - one stinkin' rebound away from playing in (and IMO winning) the title.
2006 - ALSO 3 first team AAs (2 that year)
1970 - UNDEFEATED in CCIW (AND B-N! ); battled 3-time national champion (NAIA) Kentucky State to the wire
Sikma teams - enough said

The 1997 team was absolutely a great team, but they also point the the fact that actually winning the walnut-and-bronze requires good fortune as well as skill (by Coach Bridges account, it took an 'incredibly difficult' shot by Crabtree to beat RHI by 1 in the second round).

[Titan Q]

Bob, sorry if I implied they were not a great team - they were.  But which among the others I mentioned would you place ahead of them?

1996 - one stinkin' rebound away from playing in (and IMO winning) the title.
2006 - ALSO 3 first team AAs (2 that year)
1970 - UNDEFEATED in CCIW (AND B-N! ); battled 3-time national champion (NAIA) Kentucky State to the wire
Sikma teams - enough said

The 1997 team was absolutely a great team, but they also point the the fact that actually winning the walnut-and-bronze requires good fortune as well as skill (by Coach Bridges account, it took an 'incredibly difficult' shot by Crabtree to beat RHI by 1 in the second round).

The 2005-06 team (Dauksas, Amelianovich, Freeman) went 9-5 in CCIW play.  The 9 wins included...

* A 1-point win @ Carthage: http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/miwu12.htm

* An overtime win at home vs Wheaton: http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/miwu15.htm

* A 3-point win @ North Central: http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/miwu19.htm

* An OT win at home over Elmhurst (set up by a Dauksas 32-foot 3 at the buzzer in reg.): http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/miwu20.htm


The 2005-06 Titans had 3 tremendous players, but that team struggled mightily in CCIW play.  All things considered, you have to take the 1996-97 team...and I don't think it's even close, all things considered.

The team you keep leaving out is 1987-88 (Ron Rose, Paul Petersen, Mark Edmundson, Jeff Kuehl, Bill Braksick).  That's probably the best non-Sikma IWU team according to those who saw that team as well as those from Dennie's early years.

[izzy stradlin]

Not quite sure if I got Hope's starters right, but here's what that personnel from 1995-96 looked like...

Hope, 1995-96 (27-5/11-1 MIAA 1st place)
G - Joel Hostege, 6-2 So (13.2 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 5.2 apg)
G - Kevin Brintnell, 5-11 Sr (11.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 2.7 apg)
G - Dan Van Hekken, 6-3 So (5.6 ppg, 2.7 rpg)
F - Kris Merritt, 6-5 So (9.6 ppg, 6.0 rpg)
C - Duane Bosma, 6-9 Sr (17.6 ppg, 8.7 rpg)

Illinois Wesleyan, 1995-96 (28-3, 12-2 CCIW 2nd place)
G - Brady Knight, 6-2 Sr (6.9 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.5 apg)
G - T.J. Posey, 6-3 Sr (8.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 4.1 apg)
F - Bryan Crabtree, 6-7 Jr (17.8 ppg, 5.0 rpg)
F - Chris Simich, 6-6 Sr (19.3 ppg, 8.2 rpg)
C - Jon Litwiller, 6-7 Sr (12.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg)


Many IWU fans consider this to be the best non-Sikma IWU team...in the discussion with the 1987-88 team (Jeff Kuehl, Mark Edmundson, Paul Peterson, Ron Rose, Bill Braksick) and the 1994-95 team (swap out the guards above with Chad Hutson and Mark Aubry).  It always takes a while before someone actually brings up the team that actually won the national championship - the 1996-97 team.

Not only did IWU have two of the best players in NCAA Division III in Chris Simich and Bryan Crabtree, but the Titans had Jon Litwiller starting at center (who started for Division I Illinois State), and Scott Peterson as the 6th man (another Division I transfer, from Northern Illinois).

I think a lot of IWU fans forget that this team didn't win the CCIW.  The Wheaton team featuring Matt Nadelhoffer, Wesley Pitts, Jason Senik, Tim Seneff, etc. went 13-1.  The IWU/Wheaton games from 1994-95 and 1995-96 were classics.

I doubt there is a team in Division III this year with close to as much talent as the Hope, Wheaton, and IWU teams from '95-96.  It's gotten harder for D3 teams to land talent like that.

I think you're right about this.  The current era of internet visibility, AAU etc makes it harder for the D1 coaches to miss talent.   

[Mr. Ypsi]

Bob, sorry if I implied they were not a great team - they were.  But which among the others I mentioned would you place ahead of them?

1996 - one stinkin' rebound away from playing in (and IMO winning) the title.
2006 - ALSO 3 first team AAs (2 that year)
1970 - UNDEFEATED in CCIW (AND B-N! ); battled 3-time national champion (NAIA) Kentucky State to the wire
Sikma teams - enough said

The 1997 team was absolutely a great team, but they also point the the fact that actually winning the walnut-and-bronze requires good fortune as well as skill (by Coach Bridges account, it took an 'incredibly difficult' shot by Crabtree to beat RHI by 1 in the second round).

The 2005-06 team (Dauksas, Amelianovich, Freeman) went 9-5 in CCIW play.  The 9 wins included...

* A 1-point win @ Carthage: http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/miwu12.htm

* An overtime win at home vs Wheaton: http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/miwu15.htm

* A 3-point win @ North Central: http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/miwu19.htm

* An OT win at home over Elmhurst (set up by a Dauksas 32-foot 3 at the buzzer in reg.): http://sun.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2006/miwu20.htm


The 2005-06 Titans had 3 tremendous players, but that team struggled mightily in CCIW play.  All things considered, you have to take the 1996-97 team...and I don't think it's even close, all things considered.

The team you keep leaving out is 1987-88 (Ron Rose, Paul Petersen, Mark Edmundson, Jeff Kuehl, Bill Braksick).  That's probably the best non-Sikma IWU team according to those who saw that team as well as those from Dennie's early years.

Granted all that about the 2006 team, but when they got into the tourney, d3hoops.com still had them the favorite for the title.

OK, drop them, but add 1988 - that still leaves at least 5 teams even better than 1997.  (Being after my time, but before d3hoops.com [and not getting the attention of the Sikma teams], I know little about 1987-88.)  My basic point is that titles rely on good fortune as much as skill unless a team is astronomically better than any other (which rarely happens).

[D-3 watcher]

And totally agree with Q about the relative ranking of the title team - as I've opined before, I don't think they are even in the top 5 of all-time Titan teams.  Yet more evidence that winning a title takes a good deal of luck as well as a heaping dose of talent!

Don't put words in my mouth, Chuck.  I didn't say they weren't in the top five of all-time Titan teams.  I've always been a huge defender of that team in the discussion of "best IWU team ever."

Starters...

G - Korey Coon, 6-0 Fr (10.1 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 3.1 apg, 49-97 3-point, 59-67 FT)
G - Nathan Hubbard, 6-4 So (5.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 3.7 apg)
F - Bryan Crabtree, 6-7 Sr (22.6 ppg, 6.5 rpg)
F - Brent Niebrugge, 6-4 Jr (12.9 ppg, 6.7 rpg)
C - Andy Boyden, 6-9 Jr (12.8 ppg, 3.8 rpg)

* That team had three eventual 1st Team All-Americans and CCIW M.O.P.'s -- Crabtree (1997 national P.O.Y.), Niebrugge (1998), and Coon (1999, 2000).   

* Bryan Crabtree in 1996-97 was as good as any Division III player I've ever seen -- he was an impossible matchup at this level.  Crabtree led IWU with 28 points against Nebraska Wesleyan.

* Korey Coon, even though just a freshman, was a tremendous PG - took care of the ball and knocked down shots.  He had 17 pts in the national championship game.

* Brent Niebrugge is probably the most underrated IWU player of the last 20 years or so -- it'd be hard to find a player with better footwork and hands around the basket.  He had 25 pts and 11 reb in the title game.

* Nathan Hubbard did a lot of of things extremely well as a sophomore, including being a tremendous passer.

* Andy Boyden was a very skilled big man who could score with either hand...had great touch.

* The bench was strong, led by John Baines and Matt Hoder.  In the Final Four, starting center Andy Boyden didn't play (had mono)...Matt Hoder started both nights, then broke his foot in the title game...the bench was called on for huge minutes.


That was a great basketball team - perfectly balanced and incredibly talented.  They finished 29-2 overall, 13-1 in the CCIW, and won the national championship.  Seems like IWU fans forget how much talent was on that team.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/1997/19970331/active/3413n17.html