MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I find the whole discussion of "who has the league's most obnoxious fans" to be a pretty amusing one. For a while there, it seemed like people were arguing about football crowds rather than basketball crowds. They're not the same thing at all; there's quite a bit of variability to the relative size and types of crowds drawn from one sport to another within a school. (Although I will admit that alcohol-fueled obnoxiousness is pretty much a constant at certain CCIW schools.)

It's ultimately not a very enlightening discussion. People are likely to have their opinions colored by rivalry prejudices or by dislike of certain individuals as much as anything else when it comes to assessing the behavior of opposing crowds. More importantly, it's too fluid a topic for any sort of hard-and-fast conclusions (except for the problem with pre-game alcohol consumption among undergraduates at certain schools, which may be less a matter of fan obnoxiousness than of campus governance and law enforcement). What was once a hotbed of sharp-tongued and rowdy fans might now be a sparsely-populated dead zone, whereas a fan base that once sat on its hands may now be making noise and letting loose with zingers with the best of 'em. Things change over the years; sometimes, in fact, they can change from year to year.

[thunder38]

With regard to the rebounding, Mike Schauer is going to have to find someone who can help Nathan Haynes inside. Haynes has been doing a great job on the boards, but he can't do it all himself against teams like Wesleyan and NCC. Perhaps IWU will see more of someone like Sokovich tonight. Among the players who usually see more PT, a logical choice for increased board work might be 6'6" Michael Berg. However, he seems rather immune to any degree of fondness for physical contact, prefering to spend most of his time in the right side corner than anywhere near underneath the basket.

Also, lack of physicality is definitely a Wheaton liability. Michael Berg, especially, has a strong case of Luke Johnson Syndrome in that it doesn't appear that he will soon meet any physical confrontation on the basketball court which he either looks forward to or relishes. Did he spend most of his time last night down in the right hand corner again? And, with Haynes out, Wheaton's ability to bring the physical game was even further diminished.

Additionally, its been a resounding thud as the rookies have crashed back to the norm as the season has worn on.

After eight games, Michael Berg was averaging 6.8 ppg and 3.3 rpg, and his scoring totals had gone up for four straight games, peaking with a 15-point performance against Wash U. He was shooting 19-50 (.380) from the field, 8-21 (.381) from beyond the arc, and 8-10 (.800) from the foul line.

Michael Berg's last five games:

Dec. 12 vs. Cornell	19 min	2 pts, 1 reb (1-6 FG)
Dec. 14: @ Northwestern	11 min	0 pts, 1 reb (0-4 FG, 0-1 trey, 0-2 FT)
Dec. 15: @ North Central (MN)	5 min	0 pts, 1 reb (0-4 FG, 0-1 trey)
Jan. 2: vs. Illinois Wesleyan	18 min	6 pts, 3 rebs (2-4 FG, 2-2 trey, fouled out)
Jan. 5: @ North Central (IL)	5 min	0 pts, 3 rebs (0-1 FG)

I was at the Wheaton/Cornell game, and of course witnessed his limited engagement against NCC. It was very quickly evident that Berg has a touch of "Johnson Syndrome" in that he really isn't fond of more than a minimal degree of physical contact. His domicile of preference on the basketball court appears to be the right corner, and he would much rather sit out there and pop threes rather than to try to drive the baseline. I see that against IWU, he hit 2 threes. Very understandable as I doubt if he wanted any part of meeting Reed, Davis, or Ziemnik inside.

Berg definitely has talent. However, that talent won't be cultivated to its fullest potential until he develops more of a taste for a little bumping and grinding in the paint. This would also allow him to collect a few more boards which, at 6'6" he should be able to get done. In his freshman campaign, he is undoubtedly still adjusting to competition at the college level where he is encountering obstacles that weren't present last year.

Will Wheaton freshman Michael Berg have a breakout game today vs Millikin?
On 1/12, he scored 16 points in the teams first meeting.
However, in CCIW play, Berg is averaging only 3.36 ppg. (37 points in 11 games)
Despite starting, he has somewhat surprisingly gone scoreless in Wheaton's last 4 games.

Berg scored 4 points last night. Actually raised his scoring average from 3.36 to 3.41
Of course he did have a rebound. But, alas, 2 turnovers.
I sense he is finding the competition at the college level, especially in one of the premier D3 conferences, a bit tougher than going up against the likes of Farmington, Porta, and Greenview.

Is this a case of sour grapes or are you just being a major Richard?

Neither Wheels.
Rather, I was just picking up on something that was originally started by another poster a bit earlier in the season. I think it may have been Titan Q, but I'm not sure of that. I had just noticed the theme has continued further on into the season. And secondly, what did I say that wasn't true? I'm at somewhat of a loss as to why you evidently have a problem with the facts.

Despite Greg trying to take the bullet on this one, history shows that AndOne has been the originator and most consistent transgressor in calling Berg to the carpet.  Yes he's a freshman and freshmen are expected to have ups and downs. Wheaton rolled through their early nonconference schedule and its always easier for a freshman to get involved when they're coming off the bench and have relatively no pressure because everyone else is playing so well like Wheaton was early in the year. With that many scoring threats around him its easy to see how  teams early on would feel free to forget about the freshman and focus on Peters, Kvam, Teuscher, P. Smith or Haynes.  CCIW teams see that and they know to make him part of the scouting report, especially when he's in the starting lineup, so of course the numbers are going to tip. That's a no-brainer. Also keep in mind it was the WestMo game that Teuscher went down and Kvam went down not long after that, putting a ton of extra focus and pressure on Berg.

And of course its harder to score in the CCIW than against Porta. It's harder to score in the NathCon than it is against Porta! This is college, that's a ridiculous comparison to make. He's a college freshman and he's starting for a Top 25 team in possibly the toughest conference in the country. He's not Derek Raridon so what do you want from the kid? I don't think he's been a nonfactor at all. His presence has led to defensive floor spacing which has opened up lanes for other people. Just because his numbers don't match the nonconference, doesn't mean hes been a non-factor. He's matured as the season has gone on and has hit some big shots for Wheaton. Hyping a freshman is likely always going to lead to a let down somewhere along the line. I just don't see why its necessary at all to constantly bag on a freshman when he's doing exactly what is asked of him and despite the overall numbers, has had some very clutch contributions and hit some big shots for this team. Perhaps AndOne can explain since he seems to be the one with an axe to grind there.

(modified by GS for formatting)

[D-3 watcher]

And One, those are some powerful accusations you are laying on the IWU students. How come this is the first time I've heard them?
Hope you don't mind if I don't believe them, mostly because its you that's bringing it up. Facts sometimes get in your way of a good yarn. (that's a tall tale, look it up.)

[CCIWchamps]

It's ultimately not a very enlightening discussion. People are likely to have their opinions colored by rivalry prejudices or by dislike of certain individuals as much as anything else....

Ah yes, THIS is the first topic on the board to ever feature mere opinions in place of facts.     

[AndOne]

Thunder,

No axe to grind. I was looking at some of the recent WC box scores, and noticed a trend. I then remembered a discussion along the same lines a while ago that was initiated by GS rather than TQ. As Berg had a big game against MU before, I wondered if he might break out the other night. The main point, and one that gets discussed a lot when looking at either recruits or current young players from smaller schools is whether their HS records are really that accurate of a barometer of how they will do in college. Of course, many kids from small schools do very well. Wesleyan, among others, has had several. If you'll look back at what I said, i think you'll find I said Berg many very well turn out to be a very high caliber player. I think Michael is just an example of greater degree of difficulty as far as predicting success at the next level. Thats all I had to say. As far as Mr Berg specifically, I think he, as many freshmen, needs to get stronger so he poses an inside as well as outside threat, and become a better rebounder and defender. No reason to think that can't/won't happen as he progresses.

[Gregory Sager]

It's ultimately not a very enlightening discussion. People are likely to have their opinions colored by rivalry prejudices or by dislike of certain individuals as much as anything else....

Ah yes, THIS is the first topic on the board to ever feature mere opinions in place of facts.     

Some opinion-based topics are at least slightly leavened with facts. This one? Not so much.

Also, the point that I was making wasn't really about opinions vs. facts. It had more to do with people's unspoken prejudices or personal animosities affecting their on-the-record opinions about the relative obnoxiousness of opposing fan bases.

[AndOne]

And One, those are some powerful accusations you are laying on the IWU students. How come this is the first time I've heard them?
Hope you don't mind if I don't believe them, mostly because its you that's bringing it up. Facts sometimes get in your way of a good yarn. (that's a tall tale, look it up.)

D-3 Watcher----

I would expect as much, or little as the case may be from you.

I've said you often twist the facts. I've said you seem to know little about the game of basketball, and that your postings seldom contain any discussion of game situations, what certain statistics mean, or contain any real form of game analysis, and thus support my assertion. An opinion which by the way, has been voiced by others besides myself. I've said your primary purpose in being here seems to be to serve as an instigator, stir things up, and pee on me--reference your posts regarding the style of my pants, and your boasts about your plane and such, and your recent questioning about the nature of my employment. All very relative to basketball right?
However, I've not come right out and called you a liar as you have now done. I can tell you that I can swear on my mom that what I said were facts rather than accusations. I know that probably means nothing to someone like you, but its the best I can do. The 2010 incident is history. You weren't there and I was, and what I heard, and what the other fans and concerned player heard was clear. As far as the recent incident, I didn't bring it up previously because I'm positive that the intended subject didn't hear what was said because he was busy addressing 2 different people in rapid succession. I was sitting directly across from where it was said. There is no mistake what occurred.

By the way D-3, I'm not accusing the IWU studentS. The couple that said what they did are no more representative of the entire IWU student body than you are of all IWU fans.

You asked the questions. You now have the answers. Sorry if you don't like them. Just remember what I said about my mom D-3. Are you planning on insulting her too? We'll see.

[USee]

Q

With the likely conference seeds set, what is the pool C picture for CCIW teams and what does each team have to do/avoid between now and selection Day?

[iwu70]

Agree with Greg on the ebbs and flows of crowd rowdiness or activeness.  Sadly, most of the problems, abuses are alcohol-induced.  A big problem on most campuses these days, sometimes leading to very tragic outcomes.  Many of this current generation of students seem to have little respect for their own brain cells. 

Back to basketball.  Glad to see the Titans move up to #4.  NCC and WC ranked as well.  Glad to see the Pope resign.  Glad to celebrate the Year of the Snake with some of the best food in the world here in Hong Kong.  Just positive, no obnoxiousness from me today, on this sunny, warm day on the shores of Victoria Harbour. 



IWU70

[iwu70]

Congrats to Kevin Reed, CCIW Player of the Week.  Much deserved!

(IWU's Colleen McMahon receives the similar honor on the women's side this week, after 31 and the game-winner with .04 remaining in OT, to put a loss on previously undefeated Redpeople).

IWU70

[D-3 watcher]

And One

No I will not insult your mother, I'm sure she is a sweet lady, who doesn't deserve anybody saying or questioning her.

I'm just glad I'm not the one throwing my mom under the bus.

What facts have I twisted, because if I have, I will try and fix, and admit.

[Gregory Sager]

Stop it. Just stop it.

Familiarize yourself with Terms of Service Rule #3, please.

Pat's got enough to do without having to delete personal-attack posts.

[Titan Q]

Q

With the likely conference seeds set, what is the pool C picture for CCIW teams and what does each team have to do/avoid between now and selection Day?

Usee, I think it's first important to put some context around the numbers required to be a competitive Pool C candidate.  Last year, after the bracket was announced, I tried to project the order the Pool C's were taken.  Post #3866 here...

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4232.3855

There were 19 Pool C's picked (same as this year).  I guessed that the last 7 in were...

(in-region winning %/in-region SOS/in-region results vs regionally ranked)

Round 13 - St. Mary's, .739/.557/1-3
Round 14 - Illinois Wesleyan, .708/.541/3-6
Round 15 - Randolph-Macon, .783/.515, 3-2
Round 16 - Gustavus Adolphus, .731/.526/2-2
Round 17 - New York U., .800, .494, 2-2
Round 18 - St. Joseph's, .875, .470, 0-2
Round 19 - Birmingham-Southern, .920/.443/0-0

I projected that the teams left sitting at the table when the music stopped were:

(Atl) St. Joseph's (LI): 21-3 (.875), .470, 0-2
(E) Nazareth, 18-7 (.720), .549, 0-4
(GL) John Carroll: 15-7 (.682), .491, 1-1
(MA) Keystone: 21-6 (.778), .504, 0-3
(MW) Lake Forest: 19-4 (.826), .516, 0-1
(NE) Wesleyan: 20-5 (.800), .515, 3-3 - I think we later guessed that some other NE team was ranked higher in the region
(W) Puget Sound: 15-7 (.682), .513, 3-3
**********

So now to where the CCIW teams stand.  Here are updated in-region records, w/ SOS that is a week old...and I've added results vs regionally ranked...

MW #1 - Illinois Wesleyan, 17-3 (.850)/.560 /5-2
MW #3 - Wheaton, 15-5 (.750)/.577/4-3
MW #5 - North Central, 18-3 (.857)/.525/3-2 
MW #7 - Augustana, 15-7 (.682)/.549/1-7

Minimum each needs to be in good Pool C shape (4 possible games left)...

- Illinois Wesleyan: 1-2 would leave the Titans 18-5 (.782)

- Wheaton: 2-1 would leave the Thunder 17-6 (.739)

- North Central: 1-2 would leave the Cardinals 19-5 (.792)

- Augustana: I don't see a realistic Pool C chance...3-1 leaves the Vikings 18-8 (.692)


Heading into the final two regular season games, it looks to me like IWU, North Central, and Wheaton are in very good shape for Pool C.   Augustana needs the AQ to get in.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I concur: IWU and NCC would be locks; Wheaton is on the high side of the bubble.  Augie is out without the AQ.

[Titan Q]

I concur: IWU and NCC would be locks; Wheaton is on the high side of the bubble.  Augie is out without the AQ.

I'd consider Wheaton virtually a Pool C lock at .739/great SOS/4-4 vs regionally ranked.