MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Get a good non-conf schedule and win and you barely even have to try in conference play.

If that was the case Augustana would be getting in...

http://www.augustana.edu/x47780.xml

[USee]

I think it's foolish to think the POY discussion isn't close.  I would vote for Raridon over Peters simply because he is the best player on the best team.  The thing that gives me pause is when I consider how each of the teams would do without their star.  I think NCC is still an NCAA playoff team without Raridon but without Peters, I am not sure Wheaton is a conference tourney team, let alone an NCAA tournament team.  the numbers favor Peters but the logic and the tradition say the best player on the best team should get this award.   To the victors go the spoils.

[izzy stradlin]

I think it's foolish to think the POY discussion isn't close.  I would vote for Raridon over Peters simply because he is the best player on the best team.  The thing that gives me pause is when I consider how each of the teams would do without their star.  I think NCC is still an NCAA playoff team without Raridon but without Peters, I am not sure Wheaton is a conference tourney team, let alone an NCAA tournament team.  the numbers favor Peters but the logic and the tradition say the best player on the best team should get this award.   To the victors go the spoils.

Hold on a sec.  I'm all for "best player on the best team" arguments since the ultimate statistical measure of success is wins (a good example would be Amelianovich-wins over Kolmodin-stats in 2004, which I was fine with).  Problem is that the best team this year for the the statistical sample relevant to this topic was clearly IWU at 13-1.  Titan fans will admit, though, there probably isn't a MOP candidate on their team. 

[AndOne]

Well, if a Wheaton fan would vote for Raridon over Peters, I would say thats about as strong an endorsement as you can get. Appreciate the honesty USee.

And yes, I too feel the vote will be close.

[CCIWchamps]

but the logic and the tradition say the best player on the best team should get this award.   To the victors go the spoils.

Has this been the case traditionally?

[newCCIWfan]

I gave the edge to to Peters. Both are equal in terms of offensive and defensive ability (slight edge to Peters due to season statistics), however Raridon's team won 2-1 in head to head matchups, and they are conference champs (slight edge to Raridon).

Where the rubber meets the road in my mind is, that Peters creates more match-up problems for opponents. A traditional wing can adequately defend Raridon, where as I would argue that a traditional point guard cannot adequately defend Peters. When teams adjust their defensive matchups to compensate for Peters size, strength and speed, they start creating cross matchups and mismatches at other positions.

[CCIWchamps]

I gave the edge to to Peters. Both are equal in terms of offensive and defensive ability (slight edge to Peters due to season statistics), however Raridon's team won 2-1 in head to head matchups, and they are conference champs (slight edge to Raridon).

Where the rubber meets the road in my mind is, that Peters creates more match-up problems for opponents. A traditional wing can adequately defend Raridon, where as I would argue that a traditional point guard cannot adequately defend Peters. When teams adjust their defensive matchups to compensate for Peters size, strength and speed, they start creating cross matchups and mismatches at other positions.

I'm still not sure overall record and season tourney finish weighs that heavily, but will wait for some of the long standing watchers to inform.

[AndOne]

but the logic and the tradition say the best player on the best team should get this award.   To the victors go the spoils.

Has this been the case traditionally?

01--Elmhurst won conference and had the MOP
02--Carthage won and had the MOP
03--Augie. IWU, & Carthage tied. The MOP was from Wheaton
04--IWU won and had the MOP
05--IWU won and had the MOP
06--Augie won and had the MOP
07--Augie won. The MOP was from Wheaton (Raymond)
08--Augie won. MOP from Wheaton (Raymond)
09--Wheaton won and had the MOP
10--Carthage won and had the MOP
11--NCC & Augie tied. MOP from Carthage (Djurickovic)
12--NCC won. MOP from Wheaton

Regular season conference champ had the MOP in 7 of the past 12 years.

[sac]

but the logic and the tradition say the best player on the best team should get this award.   To the victors go the spoils.

Has this been the case traditionally?

01--Elmhurst won conference and had the MOP
02--Carthage won and had the MOP
03--Augie. IWU, & Carthage tied. The MOP was from Wheaton
04--IWU won and had the MOP
05--IWU won and had the MOP
06--Augie won and had the MOP
07--Augie won. The MOP was from Wheaton (Raymond)
08--Augie won. MOP from Wheaton (Raymond)
09--Wheaton won and had the MOP
10--Carthage won and had the MOP
11--NCC & Augie tied. MOP from Carthage (Djurickovic)
12--NCC won. MOP from Wheaton

Regular season conference champ had the MOP in 7 of the past 12 years.

I think most conferences look like that.  It really becomes a kind of chicken or egg argument.  Is the MOP from the top team because the team is good, or is the team good because they have the MOP.

[AndOne]

Some discussion here recently regarding the possibility of Wesleyan's Andrew Ziemnik being 1st team all-conference, and North Central's Vince Kmiec being "left off" the team entirely.

I'm not sure Andrew merits 1st team selection. However, there is absolutely no doubt that he is a 2nd teamer at the minimum. Accordingly, he might very well be a 1st team member, and I'm sure a compelling argument could be made for his inclusion on the 1st team.

However, I would suggest that whatever level Andrew is elected to, a compelling argument could be made for Vince Kmiec to be a member of the same unit. If you think that is crazy, consider the following:

* Andrew was 12th in scoring at 11.5. Vince was 13th at 11.4---ONE TENTH of a percent behind Andrew.
* AZ was 11th in rebounding at 5.9 rpg. VK was 12th at 5.5
* AZ was 14th in 3 point shooting percentage at 31.5%. VK was 15th at 31.3%--TWO TENTHS of a percent behind.
* VK was 7th in FT% at 78.4%. AZ was 10th at 76.2%
* VK was tied for 2nd in 3 pointers made with 26. AZ was tied for 15th with 17.
* VK was tied for 4th in defensive rebounds with 68. AZ was tied for 10th at 55.
* VK led the entire league with 30 steals.

I just don't see much separation in Andrew and Vince's overall games. If one is 1st or 2nd team all-conference why wouldn't the other be?

[izzy stradlin]

I think if anyone is honest and asks themselves which player directly led to the most wins for their team this year the answer is Tyler Peters.

His stats speak for themselves, but as a whole, I have never seen a player for Wheaton do so many things to help his team win.   He is their point-guard and best ball-handler, he penetrates and draws multiple defenders, he commands double-teams in the post, has excellent posts move and ability to find open shooters.   He is probably their 2nd best rebounder after Haynes and most importantly is by far their best defender.  Tyler always guards the opponents best scorer at any of the 1-3 spots.  Peters always guarded Raridon, while Kmiec spent much of the time on Peters.   

I you want to break it down to key components of the game:
Shooting: Raridon
Ball Handling/penetrating: Peters
Finishing: Peters
Post moves: Peters
Passing: Peters (partly because he draws so many more double teams)
Rebounding: Peters
On-ball defense: Peters
Decision making: Raridon- see below

I would venture a guess as to why a neutral observer might "feel" that Raridon looks like a better basketball player is that he absolutely never forces anything while Peters occasionally does.  Nonetheless, Peters still has a significantly larger overall impact on the game leading to wins.  Without him Wheaton is below .500 in conference.

While I think Tyler Peters is the best player in the conference, to show I am not too biased, I do think that Derek's dad is the best coach in the conference (and I mean year-in year-out, not for the coach of the year award).

[Titan Q]

Some discussion here recently regarding the possibility of Wesleyan's Andrew Ziemnik being 1st team all-conference, and North Central's Vince Kmiec being "left off" the team entirely.

I'm not sure Andrew merits 1st team selection. However, there is absolutely no doubt that he is a 2nd teamer at the minimum. Accordingly, he might very well be a 1st team member, and I'm sure a compelling argument could be made for his inclusion on the 1st team.

However, I would suggest that whatever level Andrew is elected to, a compelling argument could be made for Vince Kmiec to be a member of the same unit. If you think that is crazy, consider the following:

* Andrew was 12th in scoring at 11.5. Vince was 13th at 11.4---ONE TENTH of a percent behind Andrew.
* AZ was 11th in rebounding at 5.9 rpg. VK was 12th at 5.5
* AZ was 14th in 3 point shooting percentage at 31.5%. VK was 15th at 31.3%--TWO TENTHS of a percent behind.
* VK was 7th in FT% at 78.4%. AZ was 10th at 76.2%
* VK was tied for 2nd in 3 pointers made with 26. AZ was tied for 15th with 17.
* VK was tied for 4th in defensive rebounds with 68. AZ was tied for 10th at 55.
* VK led the entire league with 30 steals.

I just don't see much separation in Andrew and Vince's overall games. If one is 1st or 2nd team all-conference why wouldn't the other be?

Well, I think the separation being that Ziemnik helped lead his team to the conference championship - a 13-1 record, and a 2 game margin over North Central.  As far as I know, the coaches are making their All-CCIW decisions on the 14 games of the regular season, and not the conference tournament at all.

As far as IWU goes, I think Ziemnik and PG Dylan Overstreet are 1st Team candidates.

[Titan Q]

D3hoops.com has the final Pool C decision coming down to Augustana and Albright...

http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2013/projected-mens-bracket

(MA) Albright (MACC) - 20-6 (.769)/.546/3-1
(MW) Augustana (CCIW) - 18-8 (.692)/.553/2-8


The selection show is at 11:30am CST.  Link here to watch - http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/article/2013-01-04/2013-winter-championships-selections

[cciwrabblerouser]

since the brackets won't be revealed until later this morning, i'll throw this question out ...

the fans of which teams will say that their team is in 'the bracket of death?'   
a.  illinois wesleyan
b.  north central
c.  wheaton
d.  all teams except north central and wheaton

(hint:  two answers are acceptable: 'a.' and 'd.')

good mornin' ...   

[havej]

Izzy - definitely agree with your analysis regarding Peters as MOP.  Greater impact on the game and much bigger problem for opposing coaches as far as preparation.  Catch and shoot players shouldn't be MOP candidates unless they're named JJ Redick.