MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[A Lover of the Game]

since the brackets won't be revealed until later this morning, i'll throw this question out ...

the fans of which teams will say that their team is in 'the bracket of death?'   
a.  illinois wesleyan
b.  north central
c.  wheaton
d.  all teams except north central and wheaton

(hint:  two answers are acceptable: 'a.' and 'd.')



good mornin' ...   

The same could have been said last year.  As I recall, answer A was the last CCIW team standing going into the final four. 

[CCIWchamps]

but the logic and the tradition say the best player on the best team should get this award.   To the victors go the spoils.

Has this been the case traditionally?

01--Elmhurst won conference and had the MOP
02--Carthage won and had the MOP
03--Augie. IWU, & Carthage tied. The MOP was from Wheaton
04--IWU won and had the MOP
05--IWU won and had the MOP
06--Augie won and had the MOP
07--Augie won. The MOP was from Wheaton (Raymond)
08--Augie won. MOP from Wheaton (Raymond)
09--Wheaton won and had the MOP
10--Carthage won and had the MOP
11--NCC & Augie tied. MOP from Carthage (Djurickovic)
12--NCC won. MOP from Wheaton

Regular season conference champ had the MOP in 7 of the past 12 years.

Thanks for the summary.  So we have a 58% of seeing an IWU player....

[Kovo]

Some discussion here recently regarding the possibility of Wesleyan's Andrew Ziemnik being 1st team all-conference, and North Central's Vince Kmiec being "left off" the team entirely.

I'm not sure Andrew merits 1st team selection. However, there is absolutely no doubt that he is a 2nd teamer at the minimum. Accordingly, he might very well be a 1st team member, and I'm sure a compelling argument could be made for his inclusion on the 1st team.

However, I would suggest that whatever level Andrew is elected to, a compelling argument could be made for Vince Kmiec to be a member of the same unit. If you think that is crazy, consider the following:

* Andrew was 12th in scoring at 11.5. Vince was 13th at 11.4---ONE TENTH of a percent behind Andrew.
* AZ was 11th in rebounding at 5.9 rpg. VK was 12th at 5.5
* AZ was 14th in 3 point shooting percentage at 31.5%. VK was 15th at 31.3%--TWO TENTHS of a percent behind.
* VK was 7th in FT% at 78.4%. AZ was 10th at 76.2%
* VK was tied for 2nd in 3 pointers made with 26. AZ was tied for 15th with 17.
* VK was tied for 4th in defensive rebounds with 68. AZ was tied for 10th at 55.
* VK led the entire league with 30 steals.

I just don't see much separation in Andrew and Vince's overall games. If one is 1st or 2nd team all-conference why wouldn't the other be?

Well, I think the separation being that Ziemnik helped lead his team to the conference championship - a 13-1 record, and a 2 game margin over North Central.  As far as I know, the coaches are making their All-CCIW decisions on the 14 games of the regular season, and not the conference tournament at all.

As far as IWU goes, I think Ziemnik and PG Dylan Overstreet are 1st Team candidates.

Interesting point.  Does anyone know for certain whether play in the CCIW  tournament is considered?  I believe that  in the NFL they vote on the awards prior to the playoffs.  However, why wait to vote until after the tournament if it is not considered?   And, more to the point, why wouldn't play in the tournament be considered (other than the obvious---which is that only half the teams play)? 

Any thoughts on whether the conference tournament play should be considered in handing out awards?  What say Mr. Sager?  Mr. Coleman?  And, the rest of you with superior knowledge of how and why it is handled in a particular manner?

[USee]

Regarding the POY discussion let me clarify a couple points. My point about the "best player on the best team" was focused on a debate between NCC and Wheaton. It wasn't meant as a slight to IWU, who clearly was the best team during the regular season. My apologies to any IWU fans who took my comments that way (After re-reading them I can certainly see why someone could think that). I saw IWU and NCC as the best 2 teams in the league. Since we all agree IWU likely doesn't have a POY candiate (a blessing and a curse of sorts) The debate has centered around Raridon vs Peters.

Secondly, if you look at the data, the best team has the POY virtually every year unless you have a Kolmodin, Raymond or Stevie D in the league. Those were the exclusive exceptions. The interesting exception to all of this is last year's POY, Wheaton's Tim McCrary over any player on NCC's team (Raridon, Gamble, Tiknis, etc). Last year Wheaton went 2-1 vs NCC. I think in the end, the coaches pick the team that won over the team that lost. Head to head matters. This year NCC went 2-1 over Wheaton. That's a big part of why I think Derek Raridon is going to win. If Wheaton had won over NCC on Friday at the Shirk, I think Peters wins the POY. I am NOT saying that's the way it should be, but I think that's the way it works in practice.

To say that the coaches are not considering the conference tournament is idealistic. The fact is they vote after the conference tournament, it HAS to be a factor. It's human. Most of the coaches are going to vote based on their gut feeling, similar to what Q posted:

For me I guess this isn't about numbers.  I've watched both play many times this year, and I just personally feel that Derek Raridon is the better basketball player.  He just plays the game the right way all of the time and he makes big plays in big moments.

If I'm starting a CCIW team with players from 2012-13 rosters, I pick Raridon first without any hesitation.  Peters is a great player too, but I just prefer Raridon for reasons I can't really explain with any type of numbers.

The numbers defy this logic, Peter's has carried his team more often than any other player, but sometimes it comes down to gut feeling and I think this is one of those times. I think both are deserving and it should be very close but I believe Raridon wins it.

[Titan Q]

Definitely just a gut feeling thing to me.  They are both tremendous players...I just personally think Raridon is the better of the two.

It's kind of like my gut feeling about Andrew Ziemnik being a 1st teamer...I know his numbers don't jump out, but I feel confident he's a 1st teamer.

[USee]

Some discussion here recently regarding the possibility of Wesleyan's Andrew Ziemnik being 1st team all-conference, and North Central's Vince Kmiec being "left off" the team entirely.

I'm not sure Andrew merits 1st team selection. However, there is absolutely no doubt that he is a 2nd teamer at the minimum. Accordingly, he might very well be a 1st team member, and I'm sure a compelling argument could be made for his inclusion on the 1st team.

However, I would suggest that whatever level Andrew is elected to, a compelling argument could be made for Vince Kmiec to be a member of the same unit. If you think that is crazy, consider the following:

* Andrew was 12th in scoring at 11.5. Vince was 13th at 11.4---ONE TENTH of a percent behind Andrew.
* AZ was 11th in rebounding at 5.9 rpg. VK was 12th at 5.5
* AZ was 14th in 3 point shooting percentage at 31.5%. VK was 15th at 31.3%--TWO TENTHS of a percent behind.
* VK was 7th in FT% at 78.4%. AZ was 10th at 76.2%
* VK was tied for 2nd in 3 pointers made with 26. AZ was tied for 15th with 17.
* VK was tied for 4th in defensive rebounds with 68. AZ was tied for 10th at 55.
* VK led the entire league with 30 steals.

I just don't see much separation in Andrew and Vince's overall games. If one is 1st or 2nd team all-conference why wouldn't the other be?

Well, I think the separation being that Ziemnik helped lead his team to the conference championship - a 13-1 record, and a 2 game margin over North Central.  As far as I know, the coaches are making their All-CCIW decisions on the 14 games of the regular season, and not the conference tournament at all.

As far as IWU goes, I think Ziemnik and PG Dylan Overstreet are 1st Team candidates.

Interesting point.  Does anyone know for certain whether play in the CCIW  tournament is considered?  I believe that  in the NFL they vote on the awards prior to the playoffs.  However, why wait to vote until after the tournament if it is not considered?   And, more to the point, why wouldn't play in the tournament be considered (other than the obvious---which is that only half the teams play)? 

Any thoughts on whether the conference tournament play should be considered in handing out awards?  What say Mr. Sager?  Mr. Coleman?  And, the rest of you with superior knowledge of how and why it is handled in a particular manner?

As I mentioned in my post above, the conference tournament, by rule, shouldn't be considered, but these guys are human. The vote happens AFTER the tournament, it is definitely considered. The reality may be that very few of the coaches votes would change based on the conference results, but I have to believe close votes like this year's POY is affected by the conference tournament. If Ty Peters leads Wheaton to the AQ over NCC this year I think there is no question he is the POY. The fact that Wheaton lost to NCC 2x this year (the deciding time on a neutral floor) is going to be the tipping point for POY.

I also believe if NCC had played IWU in the title game, a couple of AC spots would have been on the line. Ziemnik, Overstreet, Sodemann vs Tiknis, Gamble, Kmiec, etc. That data makes it a lot easier for coaches to sort this stuff out.

[Titan Q]

Is this the first time they have voted after the conference tournament?  Seems to me the all-CCIW team always comes out leading up to the tournament...like the women's did this year.  Maybe I'm "misremembering."

[SevenTen]

Is this the first time they have voted after the conference tournament?  Seems to me the all-CCIW team always comes out leading up to the tournament...like the women's did this year.  Maybe I'm "misremembering."

I don't know about "first time" but I know for sure the results came out before the tournament last year as they were being discussed during the semifinal games in Merner.

[USee]

Is this the first time they have voted after the conference tournament?  Seems to me the all-CCIW team always comes out leading up to the tournament...like the women's did this year.  Maybe I'm "misremembering."

I believe so. Remember the "Augie Rule" where all the teams let Augie play their final conference game the week of the tournament. This year they had ALL the teams do that so no one had an unfair advantage. I think that scheduling set the AC voting back. I remember all the voting being done before the tournament last year as well.

[Rafi]

Is it possible that Gamble will take some votes away from Raridon?  For those coaches that vote for the 'best player on the best team', could some vote for Gamble instead of Raridon and possibly allowing Peters to win?  (I am using the definition of the best team between players considered)

I don't know if there is a nomination process for MOP or how it goes, so that might have an impact on the Gamble/Raridon debate.........

[USee]

I am pretty sure the coaches nominate their players for POY. So Coach Raridon has to choose between Gamble and Raridon to bring to the other coaches. That's how it used to work in football and I am pretty sure in BBall too. It may have changed but that would be recently (last 3-4 years).

[D-3 watcher]

Izzy s

Even without Tyler Peters, Wheaton makes the CCIW tourney. The bottom four teams in the league were very bad this year. Two of those teams would have been a lot better, but they lost 2 big pieces off thier team. (North Park-Carthage) .Remember they beat NCC this year in OT, when he fouled out. They have a lot of good players there, they sometimes just watch TP a little to much. I only saw 4 games in person, so my perception could be way off.
We will know soon

[USee]

I have confirmed that All Conference selections were made prior to the conference tournament in every year prior to this year (Actually, I couldn't verify the date of AC selections for the 06-07 but safe to assume it was similar to every other year, which I did verify).

ps. this goes into the category of non-lazy posting as digging through the press releases on the CCIW website and a couple of the other teams was required to see the dates on press releases. I'm just sayin....

[TitansIWU]

I have confirmed that All Conference selections were made prior to the conference tournament in every year prior to this year (Actually, I couldn't verify the date of AC selections for the 06-07 but safe to assume it was similar to every other year, which I did verify).

ps. this goes into the category of non-lazy posting as digging through the press releases on the CCIW website and a couple of the other teams was required to see the dates on press releases. I'm just sayin....

Very non lazy post. I verified last year, and then got lazy and decided to wait for someone else to verify the rest.

I was so lazy, I didn't even post my findings.

[USee]

NCAA bracket is out.

IWU hosts Trannsylvania
NCC hosts Centre
Wheaton hosts St Norbert

IWU, NCC, Wash U, UWW are in a bracket of death and would all play in round 2. Wheaton would face St Thomas in round 2