MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[markerickson]

I'm pretty sure that they're the only two D3 coaches who've done that.

What I truly meant was Nebraska Wesleyan has an all-time record of 0-1, a loss in 1985, against North Park.  Bosko v Raridon.  Aren't these two guys the best two coaches in the CCIW?

[nescac1]

As a Williams fan, it took this board to make me actually root for Amherst, so congrats.  I think the slow pace was to NCC's benefit, actually, I think Amherst would have beaten them handily had it been a wide open up-and-down game which far more favored Amherst's style of play.  I have never bashed the CCIW or WIAC, and neither do other NESCAC fans, at least until now.  I've always had the utmost respect for those teams, and I continue to think the WIAC is the best conference. Based on what I've seen of the CCIW, though, I've been underwhelmed, at least when you are claiming that it offers superior brand of hoops vs. the NESCAC.  They are two of the top conferences, but CCIW is not clearly superior as folks here seem so confident of.  I won't say, like the posters here claim about NESCAC (e.g., the NESCAC teams would lose regularly to CCIW if they played claim, which is ridiculous, stated earlier on this board) that North Central or IWU would not be NESCAC contenders.  They surely would have been this year, although I am confident Amherst would have swept either, and I give Williams the edge over either, too.  The top three in NESCAC have simply been consistently stronger than the top three of the CCIW for over a decade now.  If I'm not mistaken, it's now been more than FIFTEEN years since any CCIW team has played for the national title.  You can only blame bracketing for so much ... at some point in the tourney, you will have to play the best teams, and when they play the best teams, the CCIW teams lose.  I only say all of this because of all the bitterness I hear about NESCAC, over and over, both in person and on these boards, and really, it's time for it all to end.  You don't see NESCAC folks continually trying to disparage the teams from other parts of the country as somehow not earning their place or belonging in Salem.  Why then do some of the Midwest fans (and only the Midwest fans, seemingly) have a pathological need to disparage the quality of ball played in NESCAC?  You've all seen for the last decade NESCAC teams in the Final Four.  It should be obvious by now that these teams are consistently among the very best in the country.

In that same time span, SIX NESCAC teams have made the championship, with two victories in the bag and, I'm guessing a third imminent.  Until the CCIW earns another title, or at the very minimum, at least earns a trip to the championship, can we please have a moratorium on the annual commentary, both on the boards and by many of the folks actually attending the games in Salem (some of the smack talking was pretty unreal), about how the top NESCAC teams couldn't hang in CCIW or WIAC?  Because the best of CCIW this year would be in my view a third place NESCAC team this year, and North Central would not have been favored vs. the 2010 Williams team or 2011 Williams or Midd teams, either.  And NESCAC looks loaded again next season with, I would expect, four pre-season all-American players returning plus a fourth team (Tufts) ready to reemerge on the national scene after a hiatus.  The top three NESCAC programs would all contend for a CCIW or even a WIAC title year in and year out, and they've proven as much by continually advancing, not just to the Final Four, but all the way to the championship game, in SIX out of the last eleven years.  And I note that Williams had to beat Amherst during three of its final four runs, so it's not like the teams are always separated into opposing brackets.   Unless you are saying an entire half of the bracket, or heck, the whole damn tournament including the title game, is set up to give NESCAC teams a series of gimmes, just please, quit the annual whining.  It's unbecoming.  At the very least, wait until y'all win another title!

[cardinalpride]

As a Williams fan, it took this board to make me actually root for Amherst, so congrats.  I think the slow pace was to NCC's benefit, actually, I think Amherst would have beaten them handily had it been a wide open up-and-down game which far more favored Amherst's style of play.  I have never bashed the CCIW or WIAC, and neither do other NESCAC fans, at least until now.  I've always had the utmost respect for those teams, and I continue to think the WIAC is the best conference. Based on what I've seen of the CCIW, though, I've been underwhelmed, at least when you are claiming that it offers superior brand of hoops vs. the NESCAC.  They are two of the top conferences, but CCIW is not clearly superior as folks here seem so confident of.  I won't say, like the posters here claim about NESCAC (e.g., the NESCAC teams would lose regularly to CCIW if they played claim, which is ridiculous, stated earlier on this board) that North Central or IWU would not be NESCAC contenders.  They surely would have been this year, although I am confident Amherst would have swept either, and I give Williams the edge over either, too.  The top three in NESCAC have simply been consistently stronger than the top three of the CCIW for over a decade now.  If I'm not mistaken, it's now been more than FIFTEEN years since any CCIW team has played for the national title.  You can only blame bracketing for so much ... at some point in the tourney, you will have to play the best teams, and when they play the best teams, the CCIW teams lose.  I only say all of this because of all the bitterness I hear about NESCAC, over and over, both in person and on these boards, and really, it's time for it all to end.

In that same time span, SIX NESCAC teams have made the championship, with two victories in the bag and, I'm guessing a third imminent.  Until the CCIW earns another title, or at the very minimum, at least earns a trip to the championship, can we please have a moratorium on the annual commentary, both on the boards and by many of the folks actually attending the games in Salem (some of the smack talking was pretty unreal), about how the top NESCAC teams couldn't hang in CCIW or WIAC?  Because the best of CCIW this year would be in my view a third place NESCAC team this year, and North Park would not have beaten the 2010 Williams team or 2011 Williams or Midd teams, either.  And NESCAC looks loaded again next season with, I would expect, four pre-season all-American players returning plus a fourth team (Tufts) ready to reemerge on the national scene after a hiatus.  The top three NESCAC programs would all contend for a CCIW or even a WIAC title year in and year out, and they've proven as much by continually advancing, not just to the Final Four, but all the way to the championship game, in SIX out of the last eleven years.  And I note that Williams had to beat Amherst during three of its final four runs, so it's not like the teams are always separated into opposing brackets.   Unless you are saying an entire half of the bracket, or heck, the whole damn tournament including the title game, is set up to give NESCAC teams a series of gimmes, just please, quit the annual whining.  It's unbecoming.  At the very least, wait until y'all win another title!

Congrats to Amherst! You guys are the best!

[lefrakenstein]

I do think that the CCIW is the better conference top-to-bottom, but it's hard to argue with nescac1 for the top three NESCAC teams. On the NESCAC board we get to hear every year how the NESCAC has trouble holding it's own against midwest teams and how the CCIW and WIAC are the superior conferences. The WIAC, fine. They've had an incredible run and I think are clearly the best conference in the country, challenged only by maybe the UAA. The CCIW, though, I can't agree with. The CCIW has had a much tougher time against elite competition than the top NESCAC teams have. To take a look at the performance this millennium in the sweet 16 and beyond:

Sweet 16:
NESCAC: 19 appearances, 14-5 overall, 13-4 against other conferences, .764 winning percentage.
CCIW: 17 appearances, 9-8 overall, 7-6 against other conferences, .538 winning percentage.

Elite 8:
NESCAC: 14 appearances, 10-4 overall, 8-2 against other conferences, .800 winning percentage.
CCIW: 9 appearances 5-4 overall, 5-4 against other conferences, .555 winning percentage.

Final 4:
NESCAC: 10 appearances, 6-4 overall, 5-3 against other conferences, .625 winning percentage
CCIW: 5 appearances, 0-5 overall, 0-5 against other conferences, .000 winning percentage

Finals:
NESCAC: 5 (soon to be 6) appearances, 2-3 overall, 2-3 against other conferences, .400 winning percentage.
CCIW: no appearances.

You can discount the NESCAC's sterling record in the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 somewhat by saying they've played easier teams, which is at least somewhat valid. But the NESCAC's record in the Final Four and Finals (7-6) is the same as the CCIW's record in the Sweet 16. So basically the NESCAC has the same success rate against the best teams that come out of the midwest side of the bracket that the CCIW has against the teams that just make the third round.  The NESCAC's semi-final record is better than the CCIW's record in either the Sweet 16 or Elite 8. And of course the CCIW's semifinal record is worse than the NESCAC's record in finals, showing that the NESCAC has at least some success against largely the same level competition that has stopped the CCIW in its tracks. 

Looking at the tournament results, it's tough not to come to the conclusion that the top NESCAC teams are just better than the top CCIW teams.

Thanks cardinalpride! After all the crap the NESCAC took from midwest posters on the NESCAC board over the last few days, even sarcastic praise is a welcome change. 

Update: It's also worth noting that in that time span, NESCAC teams have eliminated each other more times (4) than CCIW teams have (2). So inadequate 'protection' isn't really the issue.

[Gregory Sager]

The posts by nescac1 and lefrakenstein were also posted in the NESCAC room, and Bob's responses to them over in that room were so good in every way that I'm simply going to paste them in here without any other comment beside the fact that I agree with Bob 100%:

Here's my commentary on the CCIW board, which over the past week has been generally filled with disrespect or outright bile for NESCAC teams.  I am thankful Amherst won yesterday because we'd no doubt otherwise would continue hear for the next year about how overrated NESCAC teams are, had they lost.  We'll probably still hear it, but at least it will be a tad bit blunted:

I think you are being extremely misleading about what has actually been said by CCIW fans.  I haven't followed a lot of the conversation this past week that closely on this board or the CCIW's (I was out of town for work all week and just didn't have time), but I think you are really exaggerating.

I don't think the average CCIW fan/poster has questioned the strength of the NESCAC at all, or that of the top NESCAC teams.  I think the frustration has simply been with the Division III bracketing process year in and year out.  It's hard to argue with the fact that the CCIW's road to Salem is just a lot more difficult than the NESCAC's.  Consider that last night was the 1st game Amherst played against a ranked team in the tournament...it was NCC's 3rd.  The Cardinals had to face #5 UW-Whitewater in Round 2, and then the CCIW champion IWU, #10, in Round 3.  IWU had to play @ UAA champ Wash U (#17) in Round 2 and then @ #3 North Central in Round 3 just to get to Salem.  That's all the frustration is about. 

You are right, the CCIW has not gotten the job done in Salem.  Since IWU won the national title in 1997, the Titans failed to win in the national semi-final game in 2001, 2006, and 2012.  As did Carthage in 2002 and NCC obviously lost last night.  But I think you'd agree that conference strength goes well beyond national titles, or appearances in the title game.  It has a lot to do with the number of tournament caliber teams and depth...in these areas the CCIW always stacks up well.  This year was no exception with Illinois Wesleyan (1st place), North Central (2nd place), Wheaton (3rd), and a pretty good Augustana (4th place) team.

Did a poster here or there, or someone in Salem, make disparaging comments about the NESCAC?  I'm sure that happened.  But your post seems directed at all CCIW fans, and the generalizations you are making about what CCIW posters have actually said and think is just really unfair as I see it.

I don't think any credible CCIW fan/poster questions how good the NESCAC is - I certainly don't.  I think come tournament time it just all comes down to frustration around the bracketing thing. 

Just to illustrate, here is a look at 2nd round games from 2002-03 through 2012-13.  The ranking is that from the D3hoops.com poll at the time of the game (the week 13 ranking)...

CCIW 2nd Rounds
2012-13: Illinois Wesleyan @ #17 Wash U
2012-13: North Central vs #5 UW-Whitewater
2012-13: Wheaton @ #1 St. Thomas
2011-12: Illinois Wesleyan @ #1 Hope
2011-12: North Central @ #19 Wash U
2011-12: Wheaton vs Edgewood
2010-11: Illinois Wesleyan @ #8 St. Thomas (eventual national champ)
2010-11: Augustana vs Hope
2009-10: Illinois Wesleyan @ #1 Wash U
2009-10: Carthage vs #24 Anderson
2009-10: Wheaton @ #19 Texas-Dallas
2008-09:  Wheaton vs #5 UW-Platteville
2007-08:  Augustana vs #11 Wash U (eventual national champ)
2006-07:  n/a
2005-06:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #15 UW-Whitewater
2005-06:  Augustana vs #19 UW-Stout
2004-05:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #12 Hanover
2003-04:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #2 Hanover
2002-03:  Illinois Wesleyan vs #2 Wash U
         
NESCAC 2nd Rounds
2012-13: Williams vs #9 Catholic
2012-13: Amherst vs Plattsburgh St
2012:13: Middlebury vs #23 Cortland St
2011-12: Middlebury vs #16 Albertus Magnus
2011-12: Amherst vs NYU
2010-11: Williams vs Becker
2010-11: Amherst vs #14 WPI
2010-11: Middlebury vs #22 Western Conn
2009-10: Middlebury vs Rhode Island College
2009-10:  Williams vs Maine-Farmington
2008-09:  Middlebury vs Bridgewater State
2007-08:  Amherst vs John Jay
2006-07:  Amherst vs Widener
2005-06:  Amherst vs Hamilton
2005-06:  Tufts vs Cortland State
2004-05:  Amherst vs Springfield
2003-04:  Williams vs Salem State
2003-04:  Amherst vs Plymouth State
2003-04:  Trinity vs Brockport State
2002-03:  Williams vs Salem State
2002-03:  Amherst vs Southern Vermont


I think all of you would acknowledge that the roads to the Sweet 16 for CCIW and NESCAC teams are different.  If we looked at rounds 3-4, the games to get to Salem, the picture would look relatively similar.

So it's that simple -- it's just frustration.  I think CCIW fans read things like...

3 NESCACS in the Elite 8... shows how this league is the Toughest in the Country.

...and say, "Hey, things aren't quite level in terms of getting to the Elite 8."


The top 2 NESCAC teams are always national championship contenders, and the third best team is usually in the Top 15 mix.  Good CCIW fans know that.

[lefrakenstein]

Greg, couple points:

1) dcahill44 is not a NESCAC poster, and his view that the NESCAC is the 'Toughest in the Country' is not shared by the informed NESCAC posters.

2) kind of unfair to include all of Titan Q's posts, but none of the replies from the NESCAC crew, which completely admitted that the midwest does have a harder path the Sweet 16 / Elite 8.

3) Even Titan Q didn't seem to think that his (very well done) post about the path to the sweet 16 negated my earlier point that NESCAC teams have been more successful against the top levels of competition in the NCAA tournament. My original post conceded, and it would be absurd not to concede, that the road to a championship is harder if you play in the midwest. That doesn't really affect anything I said in my original post.

[bopol]

I'm not a fan of posting on other boards, but I don't think anyone was saying anything bad about the NESCAC as much as pointing out what was fairly obvious.

* Middlebury ended up with an easy path to the Elite 8 and probably is overrated.  That isn't a knock, but I saw them more on the bottom end of the Top 25 and not #7 in the country.

* Amherst had an easy path to the Elite 8, but I think they deserved it.  IMHO, they were one of the top 2 teams in the country (with the Tommies), so I don't have a problem with the first round bye as two teams have to get it.

* The tournament is largely regional and because of the sheer abundance of teams in the Northeast/East, there is a regional imbalance, as teams from the East end up with lower ranked teams in the first and second rounds, while the Midwest/West get to beat each other up.  Heck, look at the teams that the CCIW has faced in the 2nd round (5 games against Washington U, 4 against the WIAC, 2 each against Hope, St. Thomas and Hanover).  In the meantime, there aren't any conferences in the Northeast that are at the level of the WIAC, there aren't any individual programs like Wash U, St. Thomas or Hope and Calvin nearby.

* I think the CCIW is on the upswing right now, so comparing recent history is not necessarily a good indicator of future success.  At the beginning of the year, I thought North Central could be one of the best teams in the country, and overall, I'd have to say they are worthy of the #3 ranking and should keep it (unless the pollsters overrate MHB, which will probably happen). 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

* The tournament is largely regional and because of the sheer abundance of teams in the Northeast/East, there is a regional imbalance, as teams from the East end up with lower ranked teams in the first and second rounds, while the Midwest/West get to beat each other up.  Heck, look at the teams that the CCIW has faced in the 2nd round (5 games against Washington U, 4 against the WIAC, 2 each against Hope, St. Thomas and Hanover).  In the meantime, there aren't any conferences in the Northeast that are at the level of the WIAC, there aren't any individual programs like Wash U, St. Thomas or Hope and Calvin nearby.

For arguments sake: WPI, MIT, RIC, Rochester. I understand your point, but there are some good teams in the Northeast outside of the NESCAC (though, the results in the NCAA tourament haven't always pointed that out). And I do agree that while the CCIW is tough, there is also the WIAC pretty much next door. The NESCAC doesn't really have that except that the NEWMAC in the last few years has risen up as a possible contender. The CCIW and WIAC just have more history at being near the top.

[Naperick]

Congrats to the Cardinals on a great season!  28-4 is awesome!  I had a lot of fun watching many of your games at Merner fieldhouse this year.

[lefrakenstein]

For arguments sake: WPI, MIT, RIC, Rochester.

I'd throw Brandeis in to that list. In the last 5+ years they've been a mid-to-upper tier UAA team. Still nothing like having Wash U in your back yard of course. Also, comparing the NEWMAC to the WIAC is kind of laughable. No one is saying that the northeast is anything like the midwest. But you can only beat who you play.

[Bucket]

* Middlebury ended up with an easy path to the Elite 8 and probably is overrated.  That isn't a knock, but I saw them more on the bottom end of the Top 25 and not #7 in the country.

* Amherst had an easy path to the Elite 8, but I think they deserved it.  IMHO, they were one of the top 2 teams in the country (with the Tommies), so I don't have a problem with the first round bye as two teams have to get it.

Amherst top 2 and Midd toward the bottom of the top 25? Not sure how this squares with reality.

Midd was a triple OT loser, on a last second shot, against the Lord Jeffs this year. Amherst beat Williams three times, once in a very tight game; Midd lost to Williams in OT and by two. I think Amherst is the better team, but from all I saw this year--against many common opponents--the Panthers were about 5 spots or so below the LJs. So if you think Amherst is a top-two team (and I agree in this assessment), the Panthers should be around 7.  I think the voters got it right.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

For arguments sake: WPI, MIT, RIC, Rochester.

I'd throw Brandeis in to that list. In the last 5+ years they've been a mid-to-upper tier UAA team. Still nothing like having Wash U in your back yard of course. Also, comparing the NEWMAC to the WIAC is kind of laughable. No one is saying that the northeast is anything like the midwest. But you can only beat who you play.

I didn't say the NEWMAC and the WIAC were comparable... in fact my quote is:

And I do agree that while the CCIW is tough, there is also the WIAC pretty much next door. The NESCAC doesn't really have that except that the NEWMAC in the last few years has risen up as a possible contender. The CCIW and WIAC just have more history at being near the top.

I am stating that the NEWMAC has improved over the years and could be a contender to the NESCAC... not once did I say the NEWMAC was like the WIAC. "The NESCAC doesn't really have that except that the NEWMAC in the last few years has risen up as a possible contender."

[magicman]

Greg, couple points:

1) dcahill44 is not a NESCAC poster, and his view that the NESCAC is the 'Toughest in the Country' is not shared by the informed NESCAC posters.

2) kind of unfair to include all of Titan Q's posts, but none of the replies from the NESCAC crew, which completely admitted that the midwest does have a harder path the Sweet 16 / Elite 8.

3) Even Titan Q didn't seem to think that his (very well done) post about the path to the sweet 16 negated my earlier point that NESCAC teams have been more successful against the top levels of competition in the NCAA tournament. My original post conceded, and it would be absurd not to concede, that the road to a championship is harder if you play in the midwest. That doesn't really affect anything I said in my original post.

I posted this on the NESCAC board and thought it should be posted here as well.


Posters who tune in regularly to Hoopsville would know that dcahill44 is a young man (12 or 13 years old) who follows East Region teams, such as Nazareth, Oswego State and Rochester and is not a regular poster on the NESCAC boards. Dave McHugh had him on the show back in February as a "special guest" due in part to this young man's passion for D3 hoops. In his exhuberence over 3 teams from the same conference making the Elite Eight, he made the statement which seems to have caused an awful lot of back and forth between the posters on the NESCAC and CCIW boards. For a person that is only 12 or 13, young Mr. Cahill does have a very good knowledge of current D3 teams especially those in the East Region where he resides. His young age though, limits him when it comes to the history behind the leagues in question. I think we should cut him some slack regarding his statement and move on.

[lefrakenstein]

For arguments sake: WPI, MIT, RIC, Rochester.

I'd throw Brandeis in to that list. In the last 5+ years they've been a mid-to-upper tier UAA team. Still nothing like having Wash U in your back yard of course. Also, comparing the NEWMAC to the WIAC is kind of laughable. No one is saying that the northeast is anything like the midwest. But you can only beat who you play.

I didn't say the NEWMAC and the WIAC were comparable... in fact my quote is:

And I do agree that while the CCIW is tough, there is also the WIAC pretty much next door. The NESCAC doesn't really have that except that the NEWMAC in the last few years has risen up as a possible contender. The CCIW and WIAC just have more history at being near the top.

I am stating that the NEWMAC has improved over the years and could be a contender to the NESCAC... not once did I say the NEWMAC was like the WIAC. "The NESCAC doesn't really have that except that the NEWMAC in the last few years has risen up as a possible contender."

I know you didn't say that... wasn't trying to offend. Was only echoing your point that the NESCAC has nothing comparable to the WIAC to deal with. Didn't mean to disparage your post.

[bopol]

* Middlebury ended up with an easy path to the Elite 8 and probably is overrated.  That isn't a knock, but I saw them more on the bottom end of the Top 25 and not #7 in the country.

* Amherst had an easy path to the Elite 8, but I think they deserved it.  IMHO, they were one of the top 2 teams in the country (with the Tommies), so I don't have a problem with the first round bye as two teams have to get it.

Amherst top 2 and Midd toward the bottom of the top 25? Not sure how this squares with reality.

Midd was a triple OT loser, on a last second shot, against the Lord Jeffs this year. Amherst beat Williams three times, once in a very tight game; Midd lost to Williams in OT and by two. I think Amherst is the better team, but from all I saw this year--against many common opponents--the Panthers were about 5 spots or so below the LJs. So if you think Amherst is a top-two team (and I agree in this assessment), the Panthers should be around 7.  I think the voters got it right.

Lack of good wins.  They beat Cortland St (#29) on Massey and then Plattsburg St. Tufts and Ithaca (both in the 70s) and the rest are out of the top 100.  Yep, they had tough losses, but I tend to agree with Massey who has them at #19 right now.