MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

So what happened to NCC this season? I saw they were ranked in the top 5 nationally in the preseason but are 9-8 and 2-4 in the CCIW? So what gives?

From the statistics, it looks like the Cards are just not as skilled at slowing down opponents. (64.6 points per game vs. 58.5 last season and 47.5 percent shooting to 39.3). Is there something else?

If you know anything about basketball Fish, you should have known that NCC's pre-season ranking was based on last year's success, and came pumped full of hot air. You don't lose an All-American, a 2nd player who, between shooting, rebounding, dribbling, and especially passing, was arguably the conference's best all around player, and your team's 6th man, and come back at the same level you ended the previous season.

NCC is actually pretty darn good at "slowing down their opponents." The problem is that they also need to put the ball in the hole, and there have been problems with their consistently being able to do so.

The Cards have some very good players. They have a couple of very, very good players. Like last year, they need a few more, and those upper level players need a good supporting cast.

One thing for sure is that with several seniors this season, opportunity for significant, meaningful playing time next year will abound. 

[iwu70]

AndOne, I agree with many of your comments earlier about IWU.  I think the 5 spot for IWU continues to be perplexing -- up and down -- and I'm not really sure why Marietti is starting. Of course, Coach Rose has decided he's the best for the moment, for the stretch run, but I'm still not convinced (not that my opinion matters at all).  Anderson played very well earlier with several games 5-10 points and 4-5 boards, which is really what IWU needed with all the other firepower and strengths they have, esp. from Zman and Davis.  Surely this last game was not representative of what Anderson and Marietti can do or will be expected to do.  Anderson and Marietti had strong games only a few games back, Marietti with possibly his best game as a Titan so far.  Nice to have the strong rotation (add Seibring, if needed) and Rose can adjust given who's playing well, who's in foul trouble, what the opponent is presenting.  In the longer term, I think Trevor Seibring will be even better than Marietti or Anderson, as he has light feet, soft hands, and sees the floor, passes the ball very well -- more like Kevin Reid of the Titans last year.  In future, given their youth, you might see Marietti and Seibring on the floor at the same time -- and then with all the perimeter players that IWU will having coming back next year:  Overstreet, Sodemann, Nelson, Dolan, Nelms, Coyle, Stempel, Heyen, and perhaps even Rossi.  If Musselman returns, you could also have a very big, strong front line -- all 6'8"+ and 240-250+  Musselman also has light feet, soft hands, passes well, and even shoots the 3 pretty well.  Rossi and Musselman have to get healthy and have the passion, health and desire to return.  Perhaps the players most to be missed next year for their unique offensive and defensive roles will be Mayberger and Dortch.  It will, of course, be very difficult to replace Davis and Zman and their great careers at IWU, but the Titans will reload, not rebuild.  Again, all just IMHO.  Rose is always recruiting, and nothing succeeds like success, so who really knows what the Titan program will look like in 2-3 years, but I can assure you that things look good for this year and next year -- and likely for 3-4 more years to come. 

********

Now just to insert a bit of musical culture into this otherwise basketball-crazed room, (sorry Greg!) just to let you'all know that the leading soprano in the world today, IWU alum Dawn Upshaw '82, has been nominated for her fifth Grammy.  I know you gentlemen are all interested in IWU's women's JV Lacrosse team and in the dumpling recipes of the Vietnamese international students so you can eat well for the upcoming Tet (Lunar New Year) festival.   The truth is, she's won four Grammy's already . . . so if you need some calm for your soul, some help in pursuing the Dao, do go order up a few Dawn Upshaw CDs and hear her serene and magical voice.  The singing is sublime.  It will do your soul some good.  Perhaps Ron Rose, Phil Jackson-like, can give the Titan players a few CDs to calm their spirits before games, to help ease the long bus ride to Kenosha this weekend.   

I'm actually hoping some day Dawn Upshaw might return to The Shirk and sing the national anthem.

More good basketball to come -- GO TITANS!  Keep singing that fight and victory song!

IWU'70

[Naperick]

I think sac is right.  The ball out of bounds was given to Elmhurst and it was the wrong call.  And I am saying this with my Bluejay colored glasses on.  I heard Bosko say later to the nearest official, "You just gave them the game."  That official was willing to let Bosko do his thing but an official on the other side of the court gave him the technical foul.  Bosko was very mad but shook coach Baines hand and every Elmhurst player's hand after the game.  He didn't really seem mad about the technical foul.

I gained a lot of respect for Carthage.  They are a better team than I expected.  They are extremely quick and really pressure the ball.  Kelly is a joy to watch play.

[Gregory Sager]

cant disagree with u guys more on this one...  their was a point in the game when 1 official, i believe rick o neil, called 3 consecutive hand checks on carthage 25 ft from the basket.  YOU want that called on the last possession of the game.  Ur intention is good but games will never be officiated that way!!!

They should be. That's the way that officials are taught to call a game, and it's the right way.

A first hand account of the technical foul on Carthage with :02 to play would be very helpful.

Video - http://new.livestream.com/elmhurstcollege/basketballmens

The final 2 minutes or so starts at about 1:48:00.


The camera was not on the Carthage bench at the time the T was called, but based on how crazy Bosko went on the play before that (with Malcom Kelly taking the ball to the basket), I think there is a very good chance he earned the T.  The officials seemed to give Bosko a ton of slack on the play before - he could have been T'd up at that point.

On the play Bosko got upset about - Kelly's drive to the basket with about :15 to go - I don't see an obvious foul at all.  Certainly no undercut...just kind of a glancing swipe by the Elmhurst defender.

Also worth noting, Kelly could have been called for an offensive foul on the shot he made with 0:27 to go.  Carthage may have gotten a break on that one.

He seems to be upset that the ball out of bounds was given to Elmhurst. 

Magic words if the ref 70 feet away calls a T.  Anyway thanks for the video, unusual to see a 'T' with a game on the line like that.

Bosko's been a head coach for close to three decades now, and I can count the number of technicals that he's picked up over the years on my hands, with fingers left over. He doesn't use the magic words, and he is a master at knowing how much he can get away with in terms of the veteran refs that work most of the games in this league. And the officials for last night's CC @ EC game -- Eric Anderson, Rick O'Neill, and Bill Oostdyk -- are all CCIW veterans who've worked a lot of Bosko's games before. There has to be more to this story in terms of that technical.

(After I posted this I saw Naperick's post -- and Bosko's comment to the ref, "You just gave them the game," appears to be the "more to this story" that I sought. Thanks for the clarification, Naperick. There's more than one official in this league who'll hand you a T-bone if you say something like that to him at the end of a game.)

So what happened to NCC this season? I saw they were ranked in the top 5 nationally in the preseason but are 9-8 and 2-4 in the CCIW? So what gives?

From the statistics, it looks like the Cards are just not as skilled at slowing down opponents. (64.6 points per game vs. 58.5 last season and 47.5 percent shooting to 39.3). Is there something else?

If you know anything about basketball Fish, you should have known that NCC's pre-season ranking was based on last year's success, and came pumped full of hot air. You don't lose an All-American, a 2nd player who, between shooting, rebounding, dribbling, and especially passing, was arguably the conference's best all around player, and your team's 6th man, and come back at the same level you ended the previous season.

Mark hit the nail on the head. NCC never should've been ranked sixth in the preseason poll in the first place, considering the massive losses that the Cardinals suffered from the roster of 2012-13's Final Four outfit. I just don't know what the d3hoops.com pollsters were thinking when they decided to slot a team that had lost Derek Raridon, Aaron Tiknis, and Charlie Rosenberg so close to the top of the national heap.

[Gregory Sager]

and one

After seeing both teams... What does Carthage have to do beat Wesleyan Saturday night?  Is this a game that comes down to depth vs Carthage home court and star player?

As often is the case in football, this will be a classic speed vs power game. I don't have to tell you which team is which.
For a Carthage upset---quickly, off the top of my head, I'd say:

* "Gramps" Kelly has to have another big game. A minimum of 20.
* CC's other players need to help Kelly. At least one more player needs to score close to 20.
* Kastel needs to think defense and rebounding first. Scoring is secondary, and any points scored are a bonus.
* To me, CC's strengths, after Kelly's scoring potential, are speed and athleticism. They need to run every chance they get and "outquick" IWU's bigs down the floor. Logan needs to lead the break and pull up for open mid range shots or dish to the wings flying to the basket.
* To further utilize their speed, I think CC needs to run Herth & Sykes through screens to create open looks. They then need to hit a good percentage of their outside shots to draw the IWU defense away from the basket a bit. Kelly seems to be more able to create his shots solely off the dribble.
* I'd flash Senior to the middle for 10-15 foot shots which he seems pretty good at. If he's covered, he can go to the basket or outlet to an open man on the perimeter. Senior also has to help Kastel inside defensively.
* Again, using their speed, I'd like to see Kelly, Herth, and Sykes use their 1st step quickness to try and beat their defender to the basket. Should they not be able to do so, they should still put the ball on the floor and do what I call a "Steve D" move---get their defender backing up and go right into him, drawing a foul and getting to the line.
* Again using their quickness, get through the IWU screens and stay close to their man, not giving IWU open looks after they receive a pass.
* Value each possession. Play with a sense of urgency while not turning the ball over.

All easier said than done. 

I would add that using their perimeter quickness defensively to aggressively trap and to jump passing lanes might be a major ingredient for the Red Men. If you're Carthage you're the underdog, so get used to the idea that you might have to gamble more than usual. Regardless, I see Wesleyan winning this one by ten points.

I think that the North Central @ Wheaton game might be a more interesting contest than the one in Kenosha. The Millikin @ North Park game as well, as this could be the best chance that NPU has left on the schedule to pick up that elusive CCIW win.

[iwu70]

Yes, agree with Greg again -- NCC vs. WC and NPU vs. MU might be very interesting games.  I'll be cheering for NCC to bounce back and for NPU to get that elusive CCIW win.  Titans have to contain Gramps and take care of the ball, value each possession too.  No letting down, no sloppy play.  8 games to go and the time is now.

IWU70

[kiko]

The next site in the Coleman media empire clearly needs to be d3opera.com. 

[Gregory Sager]

And could d3vietnamesegleeclub.com then be far behind?

[iwu70]

I hope you guys will put in a good word with Pat so we can move things forward in future as you two suggest.

Opera and foreign language singing for D3 basketball players would be a cultural advancement, don't you think?

IWU'70 smiling.

[Gregory Sager]

Doesn't matter, Mark. Pat could create five new sites a day for D3-institution-related topics, and you'd still find a way to cram green-colored tidbits regarding each and every one of those topics into your daily Wesleyan promote-a-thon right here on good ol' CCIW Chat.

[AndOne]

and one

After seeing both teams... What does Carthage have to do beat Wesleyan Saturday night?  Is this a game that comes down to depth vs Carthage home court and star player?

As often is the case in football, this will be a classic speed vs power game. I don't have to tell you which team is which.
For a Carthage upset---quickly, off the top of my head, I'd say:

* "Gramps" Kelly has to have another big game. A minimum of 20.
* CC's other players need to help Kelly. At least one more player needs to score close to 20.
* Kastel needs to think defense and rebounding first. Scoring is secondary, and any points scored are a bonus.
* To me, CC's strengths, after Kelly's scoring potential, are speed and athleticism. They need to run every chance they get and "outquick" IWU's bigs down the floor. Logan needs to lead the break and pull up for open mid range shots or dish to the wings flying to the basket.
* To further utilize their speed, I think CC needs to run Herth & Sykes through screens to create open looks. They then need to hit a good percentage of their outside shots to draw the IWU defense away from the basket a bit. Kelly seems to be more able to create his shots solely off the dribble.
* I'd flash Senior to the middle for 10-15 foot shots which he seems pretty good at. If he's covered, he can go to the basket or outlet to an open man on the perimeter. Senior also has to help Kastel inside defensively.
* Again, using their speed, I'd like to see Kelly, Herth, and Sykes use their 1st step quickness to try and beat their defender to the basket. Should they not be able to do so, they should still put the ball on the floor and do what I call a "Steve D" move---get their defender backing up and go right into him, drawing a foul and getting to the line.
* Again using their quickness, get through the IWU screens and stay close to their man, not giving IWU open looks after they receive a pass.
* Value each possession. Play with a sense of urgency while not turning the ball over.

All easier said than done. 

I would add that using their perimeter quickness defensively to aggressively trap and to jump passing lanes might be a major ingredient for the Red Men. If you're Carthage you're the underdog, so get used to the idea that you might have to gamble more than usual. Regardless, I see Wesleyan winning this one by ten points.

I think that the North Central @ Wheaton game might be a more interesting contest than the one in Kenosha. The Millikin @ North Park game as well, as this could be the best chance that NPU has left on the schedule to pick up that elusive CCIW win.

I completely concur with the trapping and jumping the passing lanes. Defense is always an important ingredient, especially when in an underdog role.

And, as far as an interesting game, what could be more exciting than a Saturday night in Wheaton? Especially when viewing another epic Cardinal-Crusader, er Thunder, battle is part of the evening's festivities. 

[Titan Q]

* Jordan Nelson used to be a Division One player? Really? I think at the beginning of the season, even Wesleyan supporters generally assumed he would win the starting 2G position away from Sodemann, a good player to be sure,  but certainly not assumed to be on a level with a D1 transfer. Yet, he hasn't been able to do so. In fact, Bryce Dolan appears to be just as good overall, if not better. Dolan looks to be a better ball handler. His ability to do such things as use both hands, go between his legs, and be very quick with the ball is impressive. In addition, Dolan shoots 10% better overall than Nelson, and 20% better on threes. I think IWU would benefit by having Dolan see more minutes.
Opinions on that possibility?

Keep in mind, Jordan Nelson missed the entire preseason and about half of the non-conference season -- suffered a severe sprained ankle, which essentially ended up being worse than a break, in IWU's first practice of 2013-14.  He was first cleared to play for for Wash U game on December 7...but still had extremely hampered mobility due to the injury.  I heard him referred to as "70%" through about 1/1/14.  It was just this past Saturday (when IWU played Wheaton) that I heard Ron Rose say that Nelson is finally able to move well on his injured ankle.  And it was during this game that Nelson started playing dramatically differently - using dribble penetration to get to the basket or find an open teammate. (Before that he was just a catch & shoot guy.)

Nelson basically missed the period of Oct 15 to early Dec.  For a player new to IWU and CCIW, this set him way back. When he started playing on Dec 7, he was not only still significantly limited, but he was not close to being in basketball shape.  (Ron Rose has played him 16.3 minutes per game so far.)  This eliminated any chance Nelson had of truly competing for a starting job against a very solid Pat Sodemann.

Also remember, Nelson was terrific Saturday vs Wheaton.  In 19 minutes of action, he was IWU's leading scorer (16 pts) in a big win over Wheaton, going 4-4 FG (3-3 3-point), 5-5 FT.  Ron Rose had him on the floor down the stretch of a very tight conference game (alongside Sodemann much of the time)...and the Titans would not have won that game without him.  He was IWU's best player Saturday.

As Jordan Nelson continues to settle in at IWU, I believe he will be a difference maker on the floor for the Titans.

Regarding Bryce Dolan, I'd say you're comparing apples and oranges to some degree.  Yes, both Nelson and Dolan are guards, but Dolan has more of a PG skill set and Nelson more of a SG skill set.  Dolan is quicker than Nelson and a better ball-handler, but  a healthy Nelson can do some things offensively that Dolan can't (Nelson can get to the basket better than Dolan, and also has a great mid-range pull-up game).  Nelson is also a lot stronger than Dolan and provides a different defensive presence - for example, Ron Rose used Nelson on Vince Kmiec for stretches Wednesday (he probably couldn't try Dolan on him). They are just different players and I don't really see them being in competition for the same minutes.  Bryce is a really good backup PG and Jordan a really good backup SG.

[Titan Q]

* If IWU has an Achilles Heel, it appears to be at the center position. Apparently, Anderson, the initial starter, has been beaten out by Marietti. This is understandable. However, Marietti doesn't seem to really be too much of an upgrade. Last night, their combined line was 0 points, and 0 rebounds. Not good for IWU going forward.

* On the other hand, Mike Mayberger is the bomb! Is there a better non starter in the conference? Highly doubtful.
I can see him being all conference despite not being a starter! And, in that regard, would Wesleyan be an even better team if Victor Davis slid over to the center spot with Ziemnik at the 4, and Mayberger starting at the 3??
It seems like they would still have enough beef/rebounding ability, and defensive stopping ability while at the same time, being more potentially explosive and dangerous on the offensive end.

There is absolutely no question that IWU's least productive offensive players in the rotation right now are the two centers, 6-8 Mike Marietti and 6-10 Nick Anderson.  A couple thoughts though...

* Marietti and Anderson have been averaging 19 minutes per game (combined) over IWU's last couple games.  But IWU's primary lineup, and certainly the one Ron Rose has on the floor during crunch time, is the one with Andrew Ziemnik at the 4, Victor Davis at the 5, Dylan Overstreet at the 1, and then various combinations at the 2/3 spots (using Nelson, Mayberger, Sodemann, Dortch) depending on the situation.  Late in the game, Rose substitutes among this group based on what side of the floor IWU is on (offense/defense).  If IWU had an offensive possession today to win the CCIW, I think Ron Rose would have the following lineup on the floor: G Overstreet, G Nelson, F Mayberger, F Ziemnik, F Davis.

* I wouldn't over-analyze the fact that Marietti (or Anderson) starts.  I think Ron Rose just likes that big body presence in there defensively to start the game.  If he starts Davis at the 5, Davis has to guard the others team's 5 from the tip...and let's face it, Victor is foul prone.  Marietti/Anderson provide a big defensive presence to start the game and they buy some minutes for Davis at the 5.  And who knows, maybe they get a couple baskets early and get hot.  Marietti and Anderson are kind of "innings eaters" for the Titans in the low post...and that is actually a very important role in the big picture.

* Offensively, Marietti and Anderson are better than they played vs NCC Wednesday.  Marietti had a nice offensive game at NPU, and Anderson at Millikin.  These are big kids that the opposing defense has to guard...and that is a big key to IWU's offense as well.  The attention they demand on the blocks for 18-20 minutes per game helps IWU's scorers get open for good looks.  Marietti is brand-new to the varsity rotation and is trying to figure things out - he will have some ups and downs.

* I think of Marietti and Anderson as IWU's 9th and 10th men (even though one starts)...in this capacity, I think both have the potential to help IWU win big games.  These are "role players" who are both important to what IWU does.

[iwu70]

Greg, always happy to have something good and valuable to promote at IWU -- green glasses aside.  And, in the case of Dawn Upshaw, someone truly world class.  I'll leave the new D3hoops sites to Pat. 

Q makes good points on the Nelson-Dolan comparison and also some good, accurate comments on the Anderson-Marietti situation.  I'm sure Nelson and Dolan will make big contributions down the stretch.  Let's hope Marietti and Anderson also have their moments, make some key buckets and gather in key rebounds, taking up good space, blocking some shots, too, in the paint.  The Titans offensive and defensive strategies really rely more heavily on others in any case, as we have seen to date.

IWU70

[iwumichigander]

* If IWU has an Achilles Heel, it appears to be at the center position. Apparently, Anderson, the initial starter, has been beaten out by Marietti. This is understandable. However, Marietti doesn't seem to really be too much of an upgrade. Last night, their combined line was 0 points, and 0 rebounds. Not good for IWU going forward.

* On the other hand, Mike Mayberger is the bomb! Is there a better non starter in the conference? Highly doubtful.
I can see him being all conference despite not being a starter! And, in that regard, would Wesleyan be an even better team if Victor Davis slid over to the center spot with Ziemnik at the 4, and Mayberger starting at the 3??
It seems like they would still have enough beef/rebounding ability, and defensive stopping ability while at the same time, being more potentially explosive and dangerous on the offensive end.

There is absolutely no question that IWU's least productive offensive players in the rotation right now are the two centers, 6-8 Mike Marietti and 6-10 Nick Anderson.  A couple thoughts though...

* Marietti and Anderson have been averaging 19 minutes per game (combined) over IWU's last couple games.  But IWU's primary lineup, and certainly the one Ron Rose has on the floor during crunch time, is the one with Andrew Ziemnik at the 4, Victor Davis at the 5, Dylan Overstreet at the 1, and then various combinations at the 2/3 spots (using Nelson, Mayberger, Sodemann, Dortch) depending on the situation.  Late in the game, Rose substitutes among this group based on what side of the floor IWU is on (offense/defense).  If IWU had an offensive possession today to win the CCIW, I think Ron Rose would have the following lineup on the floor: G Overstreet, G Nelson, F Mayberger, F Ziemnik, F Davis.

* I wouldn't over-analyze the fact that Marietti (or Anderson) starts.  I think Ron Rose just likes that big body presence in there defensively to start the game.  If he starts Davis at the 5, Davis has to guard the others team's 5 from the tip...and let's face it, Victor is foul prone.  Marietti/Anderson provide a big defensive presence to start the game and they buy some minutes for Davis at the 5.  And who knows, maybe they get a couple baskets early and get hot.  Marietti and Anderson are kind of "innings eaters" for the Titans in the low post...and that is actually a very important role in the big picture.

* Offensively, Marietti and Anderson are better than they played vs NCC Wednesday.  Marietti had a nice offensive game at NPU, and Anderson at Millikin.  These are big kids that the opposing defense has to guard...and that is a big key to IWU's offense as well.  The attention they demand on the blocks for 18-20 minutes per game helps IWU's scorers get open for good looks.  Marietti is brand-new to the varsity rotation and is trying to figure things out - he will have some ups and downs.

* I think of Marietti and Anderson as IWU's 9th and 10th men (even though one starts)...in this capacity, I think both have the potential to help IWU win big games.  These are "role players" who are both important to what IWU does.

And, Marietti had off-season knee surgery missing much of the non-conference; and, I think Anderson still favoring the foot he injured earlier.  Marietti is still trying to get in game shape.  I felt coming into this season the 5 starter would be determined more by best match up to opponents starting 5.  Nothing has really changed my mind about that rotating approach based upon matchup.