MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

Wheaton (8-2)---> vs Millikin, @ NPU, @ NCC, vs IWU
IWU (7-2)---------> vs Elmhurst, @ NCC, vs Carthage, vs NPU, @ Wheaton

Questions:

* What exactly does "on paper" take into account?
* Does Massey take into account a team's depth? If so, the edge has to go to Wesleyan over WC. If both teams win out going into the finale, I think a major point will be whether IWU's depth can trump WC's home court advantage. With home court advantage in the 1st meeting, !WU won by 7.
* Other than the final game against each other, it appears each team's toughest remaining game might be at NCC. I say this knowing remaining IWU opponent Carthage has beaten NCC twice, but assuming IWU to be very much the favorite over CC @ home. Is NCC the wild card here?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Just seems like I should point out for the uninitiated that Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan all play each other twice in the NESCAC and Bates, Bowdoin and Colby all do so as well. A couple of the perennial powers are on that list.

True, but only one of the games counts in conference standings.  So a team could still finish second at least partly because they played #1 on the road.

[Titan Q]

* What exactly does "on paper" take into account?

I guess I just mean if IWU lost @ Augustana and @ Carthage, I think "on paper" most would make Wheaton a favorite over IWU @ Wheaton.  In most situations, when two top contenders play, you'd probably give a slight edge to the home team.

I believe IWU has a great chance to beat Wheaton in that game...but I think Wheaton would be a 2-3 point favorite.

* Does Massey take into account a team's depth?

Massey takes results and locations (home/away) into account. 

Is NCC the wild card here?

The IWU and Wheaton games @ North Central are very big.

[bopol]

Just seems like I should point out for the uninitiated that Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan all play each other twice in the NESCAC and Bates, Bowdoin and Colby all do so as well. A couple of the perennial powers are on that list.

* Bowdoin has played just 3 games against teams that are likely to be regionally ranked and built up a very gaudy record.
* Williams has played 5 games against likely RRO.
* Amherst has played 5 games against likely RRO.

My point was more that they play comparatively soft schedules and get rewarded for it in the voting, as opposed to Wheaton that plays a very tough schedule and is not getting rewarded for it.

[sac]

Just seems like I should point out for the uninitiated that Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan all play each other twice in the NESCAC and Bates, Bowdoin and Colby all do so as well. A couple of the perennial powers are on that list.

* Bowdoin has played just 3 games against teams that are likely to be regionally ranked and built up a very gaudy record.
* Williams has played 5 games against likely RRO.
* Amherst has played 5 games against likely RRO.

My point was more that they play comparatively soft schedules and get rewarded for it in the voting, as opposed to Wheaton that plays a very tough schedule and is not getting rewarded for it.

Are you talking about the d3hoops poll? 

[petemcb]

Agree with Q that Wheaton is pretty much in as a Pool C candidate.  Can't see it panning out another way at this point.  Great to see the big battle emerging for the final CCIW tournament spots.  Would love to see Elmhurst pull it off, leaving the Doggies out.  I admit I thought Augustana would be, play better this season.  Wheaton has stayed healthy and pretty much dodged their issues with overall team depth. 

Big day at the Shirk Saturday with the two "Pink Zone" Games -- men and women's hoops, also CCIW Diving Championships on Friday/Saturday, and the big Keck Invitational Track and Field meet indoors featuring Titan Senior Day as well.   Come early, parking could be an issue.  With the "Pink Zone" games, a great cause to support in local cancer research and support via the local Cancer Center.  Given the illnesses of so many in the community and at IWU (i.e. Dr. Minor Myers, jr. and Mia Smith) this is a very personal, close-to-the heart campaign and effort.  I hope there's a huge turn-out with great generosity for this effort.  Some great basketball too, of course.

Let's hope the voters of the D3 poll are paying attention and put Wheaton in the top 25 this week.  I think Cabrini goes to #1.  Of course, Point still a top 5 team given their run through the WIAC season schedule.

I see Eureka College got another $1 million gift from  the Reagan family.  The tradition and legacy of "Dutch" Reagan continues in Central Illinois. 

IWU70

Yes, but what time is the glee club competition?  And do they call those meets? Sing-offs? Matches?

+k

[Gregory Sager]

Maybe the CCIW should take a cue from the NE Smalls and schedule a weak nonconference schedule to get the great record.

You mean be a conference in name only, as far as I'm concerned. If you're only playing a single round-robin, as the NESCAC does, then you're an entirely different animal than all of the other conferences in D3, which either play full double round-robins (as ours does) or modified double round-robins, in which you only play one game against one or two conference foes (as a few of the supersized conferences do).

Yes, the NESCAC plays a postseason tournament, but that hardly makes up for only having to play one league game against all of your league foes.

Now, Greg, they have 3 Top 25 teams in the D3hoops survey, so they must be doing something right.  The CCIW might only have one (1!) after this weekend as the voters hunt through the standings to find a 2-loss team from an inferior conference to put in the Top 25.

I didn't say that the NESCAC didn't have some great basketball programs. It's blindly obvious that they do, as the success of Amherst, Williams, and Middlebury (and Trinity CT, back in the day) have demonstrated. My beef with their fans is with their league's scheduling policies, not with their contention that they play great basketball in that circuit. They clearly do.

(Consider that a pre-emptive strike in case nescac1 comes in here to complain about my previous post. )

This still feels a little over the top.  Back in the days of the great should-there-be-a-CCIW-tournament debate, we were clearly marching to our own drummer on a topic where the overwhelming majority of the D3 membership had a different philosophy.  But at the time, we felt not having a tournament worked best for our schools.  I don't see how this is any different from what the NESCAC does.  They follow all of the D3 guidelines to be Members In Good Standing(tm), and make some quirky choices across sports that they feel work best for them.  That doesn't make them a conference in name only; it makes them a conference whose members have found dance partners who share similar philosophies around scheduling (and football postseason play, and the need to sponsor squash teams) that work best for them.  Sounds like a fine solution to me.

Well, yeah. I'm obviously being hyperbolic with the conference-in-name-only thing. But this isn't a case of "parochial Midwestern standards", as you put it. Every D3 league except for the NESCAC, be it the North Atlantic Conference in northern New England, the Southern Athletic Association down in Dixie, or the Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference out in La-La-Land, plays either a full double round-robin or something close to it. Rather than speaking from a parochial perspective, I'm pointing out an outlier among D3 leagues -- and the scheduling that comes out of that outlier situation affects not only the d3hoops.com poll (which is less important) but the regional rankings and, thus, Pool C as well (which is more important).

I'm all in favor of each league minding its own nest with regard to scheduling and squash and no-outsiders-allowed-football and suchlike. I certainly don't debate the NESCAC's right to run things its own way. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or like it.

Yes, but what time is the glee club competition?  And do they call those meets? Sing-offs? Matches?

As my mother used to say to us boys when my middle brother would misbehave, "Don't encourage him!"

And the conference tournament?  Still wish we would drown that thing.  Not playing it generally would leave our teams in better shape for Pool C consideration.  And I don't like the idea of someone winning two well-placed games and potentially being recognized at the expense of someone who earned the regular season title over the course of two months of play.

I'd be fine with getting rid of the conference tournament. And I'd also be fine with expanding it to all eight teams, so that we do less damage to our potential Pool C aspirants by giving them the chance for two wins to go with the loss rather than just one. But the four-team tourney we have now is the worst of both worlds.

[bopol]

Just seems like I should point out for the uninitiated that Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan all play each other twice in the NESCAC and Bates, Bowdoin and Colby all do so as well. A couple of the perennial powers are on that list.

* Bowdoin has played just 3 games against teams that are likely to be regionally ranked and built up a very gaudy record.
* Williams has played 5 games against likely RRO.
* Amherst has played 5 games against likely RRO.

My point was more that they play comparatively soft schedules and get rewarded for it in the voting, as opposed to Wheaton that plays a very tough schedule and is not getting rewarded for it.

Are you talking about the d3hoops poll?

Yep.

[USee]

* Does Massey take into account a team's depth?

Massey takes results and locations (home/away) into account. 

Since Massey uses quantitative metrics to rank teams and make predictions, IWU's depth is baked into their record and scores. Obviously only 5 guys are on the floor at a time so that makes sense to me. Massey isn't going to add subjective, qualitative metrics to the system. So a math person (definitely not me) would say, yes, Massey takes into account all the variables to the extent they are manifest in the numbers.

Qualitatively, the depth question is completely fair. But that is balanced by the comfort a team has shooting in its own gym and the energy they get feeding off their home crowd. It's all captured in the data apparently. I'm with AndOne, I like objective criteria in addition to quantitative data.

[Pat Coleman]

Just seems like I should point out for the uninitiated that Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan all play each other twice in the NESCAC and Bates, Bowdoin and Colby all do so as well. A couple of the perennial powers are on that list.

True, but only one of the games counts in conference standings.  So a team could still finish second at least partly because they played #1 on the road.

Pretty sure the crux of the argument is "The NESCAC only plays itself once so it can fatten up on other teams in the region." Your response is irrelevant to that, as the teams do meet.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Just seems like I should point out for the uninitiated that Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan all play each other twice in the NESCAC and Bates, Bowdoin and Colby all do so as well. A couple of the perennial powers are on that list.

True, but only one of the games counts in conference standings.  So a team could still finish second at least partly because they played #1 on the road.

Pretty sure the crux of the argument is "The NESCAC only plays itself once so it can fatten up on other teams in the region." Your response is irrelevant to that, as the teams do meet.

Oh, I'm aware of that (which is why many of us don't approve).  I'm just noting that it might not be fair to NESCAC players themselves.  But they certainly have the right to schedule anyway they want to.

[Gregory Sager]

Just seems like I should point out for the uninitiated that Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan all play each other twice in the NESCAC and Bates, Bowdoin and Colby all do so as well. A couple of the perennial powers are on that list.

True, but only one of the games counts in conference standings.  So a team could still finish second at least partly because they played #1 on the road.

Pretty sure the crux of the argument is "The NESCAC only plays itself once so it can fatten up on other teams in the region." Your response is irrelevant to that, as the teams do meet.

Only some of them, Pat. Those games you cite don't amount to much when taken within the context of the league as a whole. In an eleven-team league like the NESCAC, a round-robin consists of 55 games. The additional non-league games from the WAW and CBB triads add up to a total of six games. That's six games out of a full missing round-robin of 55 games, which is less than 11%.

[kiko]

Well, yeah. I'm obviously being hyperbolic with the conference-in-name-only thing. But this isn't a case of "parochial Midwestern standards", as you put it. Every D3 league except for the NESCAC, be it the North Atlantic Conference in northern New England, the Southern Athletic Association down in Dixie, or the Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference out in La-La-Land, plays either a full double round-robin or something close to it. Rather than speaking from a parochial perspective, I'm pointing out an outlier among D3 leagues -- and the scheduling that comes out of that outlier situation affects not only the d3hoops.com poll (which is less important) but the regional rankings and, thus, Pool C as well (which is more important).

I'm all in favor of each league minding its own nest with regard to scheduling and squash and no-outsiders-allowed-football and suchlike. I certainly don't debate the NESCAC's right to run things its own way. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or like it.

It's parochial not because everyone else does things the same way and they're the outlier.  It's parochial in the sense that we're the only ones whinging about it.

[Gregory Sager]

Well, yeah. I'm obviously being hyperbolic with the conference-in-name-only thing. But this isn't a case of "parochial Midwestern standards", as you put it. Every D3 league except for the NESCAC, be it the North Atlantic Conference in northern New England, the Southern Athletic Association down in Dixie, or the Southern California Intercollegiate Athletic Conference out in La-La-Land, plays either a full double round-robin or something close to it. Rather than speaking from a parochial perspective, I'm pointing out an outlier among D3 leagues -- and the scheduling that comes out of that outlier situation affects not only the d3hoops.com poll (which is less important) but the regional rankings and, thus, Pool C as well (which is more important).

I'm all in favor of each league minding its own nest with regard to scheduling and squash and no-outsiders-allowed-football and suchlike. I certainly don't debate the NESCAC's right to run things its own way. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with it or like it.

It's parochial not because everyone else does things the same way and they're the outlier.  It's parochial in the sense that we're the only ones whinging about it.

I prefer to think of that as being perceptive rather than parochial.

[Pat Coleman]

Just seems like I should point out for the uninitiated that Amherst, Williams and Wesleyan all play each other twice in the NESCAC and Bates, Bowdoin and Colby all do so as well. A couple of the perennial powers are on that list.

True, but only one of the games counts in conference standings.  So a team could still finish second at least partly because they played #1 on the road.

Pretty sure the crux of the argument is "The NESCAC only plays itself once so it can fatten up on other teams in the region." Your response is irrelevant to that, as the teams do meet.

Only some of them, Pat.

I detailed the list, Gregory. I'm fairly certain I'm aware of the fact that only some of them play each other twice.