MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[HOPEful]

On another exciting note, since Wooster and Washington are 515 miles from each other, neither can host the next round without the other having to fly there. Since we know how the NCAA feels about paying for flights that can be avoided, it seems that if Washington gets past Wilmington and then Calvin/Wittenberg (far from a lock), the next weekend's host will have to come from one of the other two brackets... (everyone in Wooster's pod are further east)

The first logical host would be IWU. If they move on, it seems like they would be a the logical host based on merit and geographics. However, if they lose to St. Norbert (not an impossibility), it appears that Wheaton/Hope would be next in line...

Obviously, Hope's girls might make this a moot point if they are offered to host the next round. However, not much has changed since the last regional rankings (that we can see) that had a one loss DePauw ahead of Hope. From Hope's standpoint, if St. Vincent or Geneseo get out of Wooster's pod, both can get to Holland in less than 500 miles and not IWU... So an IWU/Washington/Hope/St. Vincent or IWU/Washington/Hope/Geneseo grouping would also logically have to be at Hope.

[veterancciwfan]

USee: Using your logic, IWU should be seeded higher than Wash. U. since IWU won the HTH game by 25. But the whole season must be considered. Wash. U. lost twice and IWU lost 4 games. Similarly, Wheaton lost 8 and Hope lost 7. Losses have consequences, especially in D3, which places so much emphasis on winning % and in-region winning %. I think that IWU is better than Wash. U. and I think Wheaton is better than Hope. But my opinion and yours mean nothing.

[HOPEful]

However, these two played very similar schedules and had very similar results...

You are WAY over thinking this. Your statement in bold is all you need to know. If they are indeed similar, the HTH result should have given Wheaton the hosting rights. It's not rocket science. The only reason to give it to Hope is literally what Greg said, Hope will sell a few hundred more tickets. DeVos is elite, but it's not like Wheaton's facility is an outhouse. $$$ rules again.

And you are way over simplifying this. Wheaton has 2 more losses with that similar schedule. And that loss to Loras (despite the fact that they've beaten some good teams) sticks out... I don't think that it's unreasonable to see a 6 loss team with a similar schedule as a better option than an 8 loss team, despite their game in early December.

I would lean towards Wheaton if the vote was mine and I was being unbiased. I, however, do not see that as the "obvious" choice...

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[USee]

USee: Using your logic, IWU should be seeded higher than Wash. U. since IWU won the HTH game by 25. But the whole season must be considered. Wash. U. lost twice and IWU lost 4 games. Similarly, Wheaton lost 8 and Hope lost 7. Losses have consequences, especially in D3, which places so much emphasis on winning % and in-region winning %. I think that IWU is better than Wash. U. and I think Wheaton is better than Hope. But my opinion and yours mean nothing.

If IWU had beaten Wheaton in the CCIW title game, I would have believed strongly they should be seeded higher than WashU. Funny enough, it looks like IWU will host WashU next week if they all make it. Your "losses have consequences" is an irrational generalization. The teams have similar seasons and a glaring HTH result. Do you really want to go on record as saying  the difference between 7 losses and 8 losses is the trump card over a HTH result? C'mon man! I am fine with Wheaton playing at Hope. I don't think it's right, but I am fine. If Wheaton can beat IWU @ the Shirk, they can certainly beat Hope at DeVos. We all know what happened on a neutral floor (even though that doesn't matter!). The Weekend can't come soon enough. 

[HOPEful]

USee: Using your logic, IWU should be seeded higher than Wash. U. since IWU won the HTH game by 25. But the whole season must be considered. Wash. U. lost twice and IWU lost 4 games. Similarly, Wheaton lost 8 and Hope lost 7. Losses have consequences, especially in D3, which places so much emphasis on winning % and in-region winning %. I think that IWU is better than Wash. U. and I think Wheaton is better than Hope. But my opinion and yours mean nothing.

Agreed. Also, Hope lost 6 against D3 opponents. One of those losses was against NAIA Div. 2 Cornerstone and doesn't get held against them by the NCAA. Similarly, they don't get credit for their win against NAIA Div. 2 Aquinas... With so much emphasis on out of conference schedule, it will be interesting if the Thanksgiving tournament that Hope has played in for years with Calvin, Aquinas, and Cornerstone will survive when the games are meaningless...

[USee]

However, these two played very similar schedules and had very similar results...

You are WAY over thinking this. Your statement in bold is all you need to know. If they are indeed similar, the HTH result should have given Wheaton the hosting rights. It's not rocket science. The only reason to give it to Hope is literally what Greg said, Hope will sell a few hundred more tickets. DeVos is elite, but it's not like Wheaton's facility is an outhouse. $$$ rules again.

And you are way over simplifying this. Wheaton has 2 more losses with that similar schedule. And that loss to Loras (despite the fact that they've beaten some good teams) sticks out... I don't think that it's unreasonable to see a 6 loss team with a similar schedule as a better option than an 8 loss team, despite their game in early December.

I would lean towards Wheaton if the vote was mine and I was being unbiased. I, however, do not see that as the "obvious" choice...

We are kind of beating a dead horse here but.....


* Hope: .760/.556/2-4 (lost to Wheaton)
* Wheaton: .704/.607/8-5 (beat Hope)

The ONLY criteria Hope has over Wheaton is 2 fewer losses. Wheaton has  (MUCH) better schedule, (MANY) better results vRRO and......drumroll......they beat Hope head to head. Keep trying but your logic is seriously flawed. If you just said Hope is hosting because of 750 more tickets, like Sager did, we would all be done with this. You can't be a rational person and see Hope as a better host based on the criteria.

If they were both on the board at the same time as pool C candidates....who comes off first? Although with this committee I should be careful what I ask for......

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[HOPEful]

We all know what happened on a neutral floor (even though that doesn't matter!). The Weekend can't come soon enough.

Do we? In early December, Hope still hadn't figured out who their starters were. They started both of their centers and both got into foul trouble very early and stayed their. Their leading rebounder in the game was their sophomore, perimeter guard. Their leading scorer was a reserve player.

Indeed, the weekend can't come soon enough! I think Wheaton @ Hope is a VERY compelling matchup. I expect Hope's 6'10" center to have a much bigger impact on Saturday and our leading scorer to be a starter. I also expect Tyler Peters to give Hope's defense fits...

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[Titan Q]

IWU vs Wash U is different than Wheaton vs Hope...

* Washington U.: .920/.588/9-2 (lost to IWU)
* Illinois Wesleyan: .852/.560/8-3 (beat Wash U)

* Wheaton: .704/.607/8-5 (beat Hope)
* Hope: .760/.555/2-4 (lost to Wheaton)   

Throughout the regional ranking process, IWU was always behind in winning % and SOS...and RRO was always about a push.  So IWU's head-to-head win over Wash U was just not enough to make up the difference.

With Wheaton vs Hope, Wheaton holds a significant advanage in SOS...and an emormous edge in RRO.  That combined with the head-to-head result should have made Wheaton the higher seed.  So the decision to have Hope host had to come down to one of the 5 factors other than seeding.

1.  Complete bid;
2.  Quality and availability of the facility and other necessary accommodations;
3.  Geographical location (which may include such factors as rotation of sites, weather, accessibility and transportation costs);
4.  Seeding
5.  Attendance history, hosting history and revenue potential, which shall be considered necessary to assure fiscal responsibility
6. Random/inconsistent/strange decisions made by the 2013-14 national committee.

[HOPEful]

"* Hope: .760/.556/2-4 (lost to Wheaton)
* Wheaton: .704/.607/8-5 (beat Hope)

The ONLY criteria Hope has over Wheaton is 2 fewer losses. Wheaton has  (MUCH) better schedule, (MANY) better results vRRO and......drumroll......they beat Hope head to head. Keep trying but your logic is seriously flawed. If you just said Hope is hosting because of 750 more tickets, like Sager did, we would all be done with this. You can't be a rational person and see Hope as a better host based on the criteria.

If they were both on the board at the same time as pool C candidates....who comes off first? Although with this committee I should be careful what I ask for......"

As #2 in the GL, I'm guessing Hope would come off first. VERY FLAWED SYSTEM! I agree.

After hearing Ulrich explain the committee's decisions, it sounds like this and Hope's record in the playoffs historically, and not the extra $8000 were factors.

Again, THIS IS FLAWED. I'm just saying that the difference between these two teams isn't nearly as glaring as some of the other slights and I can understand the arguement for Hope. (No one can even defend why Emory is getting a BYE and then hosting Centre)

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[USee]

We all know what happened on a neutral floor (even though that doesn't matter!). The Weekend can't come soon enough.

Do we? In early December, Hope still hadn't figured out who their starters were. They started both of their centers and both got into foul trouble very early and stayed their. Their leading rebounder in the game was their sophomore, perimeter guard. Their leading scorer was a reserve player.

Indeed, the weekend can't come soon enough! I think Wheaton @ Hope is a VERY compelling matchup. I expect Hope's 6'10" center to have a much bigger impact on Saturday and our leading scorer to be a starter. I also expect Tyler Peters to give Hope's defense fits...

I trust that Hope is a different team from December. They better be. Wheaton is a bit better now also.

Wheaton has a tough Rose Hulman team to contend with, which is no easy out. Hope will get their chance to show everyone how much better they are.

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[sac]

IWU vs Wash U is different than Wheaton vs Hope...

* Washington U.: .920/.588/9-2 (lost to IWU)
* Illinois Wesleyan: .852/.560/8-3 (beat Wash U)

* Wheaton: .704/.607/8-5 (beat Hope)
* Hope: .760/.555/2-4 (lost to Wheaton)   

Throughout the regional ranking process, IWU was always behind in winning % and SOS...and RRO was always about a push.  So IWU's head-to-head win over Wash U was just not enough to make up the difference.

With Wheaton vs Hope, Wheaton holds a significant advanage in SOS...and an emormous edge in RRO.  That combined with the head-to-head result should have made Wheaton the higher seed.  So the decision to have Hope host had to come down to one of the 5 factors other than seeding.

1.  Complete bid;
2.  Quality and availability of the facility and other necessary accommodations;
3.  Geographical location (which may include such factors as rotation of sites, weather, accessibility and transportation costs);
4.  Seeding
5.  Attendance history, hosting history and revenue potential, which shall be considered necessary to assure fiscal responsibility
6. Random/inconsistent/strange decisions made by the 2013-14 national committee.

If Calvin ended up in the final GL poll, which was plausible, Hope adds 3 RRO's.  That 'enormous' RRO advantage isn't there for Wheaton if that is what happened.

I believe it was seeding and the fact Hope was the Great Lakes #2,  the national chair said as much in his interview with DaveMc. 

I think we saw quite clearly RRO's were marginalized in favor of winning %.

[Titan Q]

In terms of how games like Hope vs Wheaton and IWU vs Wash U would play out if they happen, I think you always have to be careful to not put too much emphasis on one head-to-head result.

* Last year Wash U pounded IWU in St. Louis on 12/1 - http://www.iwusports.com/custompages/MBB/MBB2013/HTML/game7.htm.  The final margin was 10...it was 21 at one point in the 2nd half.

* In the tournament, IWU beat Wash U in the same gym, in a game IWU controlled most of the way - http://www.iwusports.com/custompages/MBB/MBB2013/HTML/ncaa2_39.htm


Sometimes team play with injuries, or have foul trouble, or just stink in one particular game.  And it's safe to say that almost every team is different in March than they were in November/December. 

[HOPEful]

Wheaton has a tough Rose Hulman team to contend with, which is no easy out. Hope will get their chance to show everyone how much better they are.

If Hope is as one-dimensional on offense as they were in their last two games (a OT win against Trine and the loss to Calvin) they will be in a world of hurt. Honestly, if they play like that and Nick DeLisio catches lightning in a bottle, Penn St. Behrend isn't an automatic win.

I see Wheaton and Rose Hulman pretty equal from a Hope matchup standpoint. I want nothing to do with Julian Strickland almost as much as Tyler Peters... I think Wheaton's depth gets them through. Still, not a very kind matchup for the first game. (Washington drawing Wilmington is the other 1st rounder I said "ouch" to) Seems unfair that Wooster draws St. Vincent, Dickenson and Geneseo St. while Washington gets Wilmington, Calvin, and Wittenberg...

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[USee]

TitanQ will offer a much more respectful and reasonable look at the match ups this week. But here is my irreverent preview of the RHI v Wheaton game:

Rose Hulman:
Julian "Rod" Strickland, Sr, G, 6-3, 22.9 ppg
Jimmy "Cracked Corn and I don't care" Miller, So, F, 6-5, 10.9ppg
Alec "Baldwin" Houpt  Sr, F, 6-5, 7.6 ppg
Tyler "Peters" Duffy, So, F, 6-5, 5.9 ppg
Jordy "Nelson-Steve" Martin   Sr, G, 5-11, 5.0 ppg

Off the bench:
Michael "C" Hallstein (aka "Dexter")   Jr, F, 6-6, 4.3 ppg
Collin "Kapernick" Wojcik   Fr, F, 6-4, 3.6 ppg

For the Thunder:
Tyler "Duffy" Peters   Sr, G, 6-4, 20.3 ppg
Brayden "Derek" Teuscher  Jr, G, 6-3, 14.9 ppg
Nate "Archibald" Haynes  Sr, F, 6-6, 10.6 ppg
Caleb "Hanie" Demoss  Jr, G, 6-0, 7.6 ppg
Peter "Frampton" Smith  Jr, F, 6-6, 7.4 ppg

Off the bench:
Michael "J. Fox" Berg   So, F, 6-6, 5.3 ppg
Joel "Anthony" Smith  So, F, 6-6, 4.0 ppg

[USee]

Wheaton faces a tough RH team on Friday in Michigan. Led by AA candidate Julian Strickland, Rose Hulman has a 22-5 Record. After losing 3 of their first 6 games they have gone 19-2 since then. Their two conference losses were on the road to Hanover and Mt St Joseph. They avenged both of those losses in the conference tournament (On RH home floor).

Common opponents:
RH@WashU (L74-94)
Wheaton @WashU (L 80-84)

RH V Chicago (W85-80) (In St Louis)
Wheaton V Chicago (W85-61)

RH@Millikin (W64-55)
Wheaton @Millikin (W92-84 OT)
Wheaton V. Millikin (W73-48)

If Wheaton can figure out a way to stop/contain Strickland, they have a good chance. He is an elite player in D3.