MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[kiko]

There's usually a sprinkling of Chicagolanders on Green Knights rosters, but they're a pretty small minority. Would joining the CCIW give SNC enough of an inroad into Chicagoland to start recruiting ESCC and CCL student-athletes in earnest? Maybe, but it's questionable.

If you're looking at the long game, though, isn't it possible that part of the appeal in joining the CCIW would be that, in time, doing so would open up a new market for the school to draw more students from -- whether Catholic or otherwise?  Many of the schools that have added D3 football in recent years have stated that a reason for taking on this expense -- and football ain't cheap -- is that it makes the school more attractive for prospective male students.  A similar line of thinking could be that playing 2-3 games per year within an easy drive of where mom and dad can watch you play would make St. Norbert much more appealing to prospective student-athletes.  It would certainly increase the presence of the school's brand in these here parts, and could help to get the school into the consideration set for more students.  Switching conference affiliations would be a lot smoother path toward increasing their draw from the greater Chicagoland area than trying to do so solely through a concerted marketing push.

(And to be clear, I have no insider information to suggest that this is or is not the thinking up in Lombardiland, or whether the Green Knights would have any interest in our lovely little conference.  I'm just a random crank on the internet -- what do I know?)

[Gregory Sager]

Couldn't help checking out these last few posts, and God help us (no pun intended), if we start to segregate colleges & universities by religion for athletic leagues.  In my opinion, college is the time to broaden your experiences (all kinds) rather than stifle them.  No "like minded".  I think the only factors that should determine D3 leagues are enrollment of the school and miles separating said schools.  Just how I've always felt about this.

This is seriously the dumbest thing I have read on the internet in a few days. 

The problem, as we all know, is that the Catholic men and women at this institutions would force the fine Protestants at the other CCIW institutions to fall in love with them and then they would marry (in the Catholic Church, of course) and all their children would be raised Catholic, bringing the dissenting Protestants back to the One True Church in a few generations.

That's why we can't have a Catholic college in the CCIW.

Did both of you not bother to read my post?

This unofficial policy is not about stifling the experiences of students by keeping the league religiously segregated. Nor is it about preventing CCIW student-athletes from meeting fellow CCIW student-athletes from a Catholic school and thereby being induced into swimming the Tiber. Come on, people. It's about keeping out a potential league rival that would have a recruiting advantage.

To make this about religion rather than recruiting is silly. It ignores the very obvious and stark differences that already exist in the CCIW in terms of the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) espoused by the current member schools. Most of the schools in this league are affiliated with what used to be called mainline Protestant denominations. Most of them still have formal ties to those denominations, but in some instances those ties are extremely vestigial. (Illinois Wesleyan is a good example, as Hoosier Titan spelled out for us a couple of years ago on CCIW Chat.) For all practical purposes, there's more than one school in this league that is completely secular in all but name. Then you've got Wheaton, which isn't affiliated with any Protestant denomination at all (although it's so thoroughly Protestant that it has no Catholics among the faculty) and which is thoroughly and completely evangelical. And there's North Park, likewise an evangelical school but with a significantly different ethos and student demographic than Wheaton's, and a tie to its' parent denomination (the Evangelical Covenant Church) that is rock-solid and highly conspicuous on campus. In some ways, it can be argued that a school like Benedictine -- where Catholicism is up-front and pervasive on campus -- is more akin to a Wheaton or a North Park than WC and NPU are to a heavily secularized CCIW school such as, say, Illinois Wesleyan. (I'm not simply saying that from a North Park point of view; there are any number of Wheaton grads, teachers, former teachers, etc. -- Mark Noll, Alan Jacobs, and Nathan Hatch spring to mind -- who would agree with me.)

Incidentally, I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with this unofficial policy. I simply report it.

Not every kid who attends  a Catholic school is Catholic. Some want to play in the CCL Blue because of the reputation.

I didn't say that they were. NPU's had any number of student-athletes on Vikings rosters over the years who were Catholic League grads from a Protestant background.

Having a Catholic school in the CCIW would not hurt the other schools as good players want a good program, period.

You may be right in saying that having a Catholic school in the CCIW wouldn't hurt the league by bringing in a member that has a recruiting advantage. But it does not appear that the league's braintrust is as convinced of that as you are.

There's usually a sprinkling of Chicagolanders on Green Knights rosters, but they're a pretty small minority. Would joining the CCIW give SNC enough of an inroad into Chicagoland to start recruiting ESCC and CCL student-athletes in earnest? Maybe, but it's questionable.

If you're looking at the long game, though, isn't it possible that part of the appeal in joining the CCIW would be that, in time, doing so would open up a new market for the school to draw more students from -- whether Catholic or otherwise?  Many of the schools that have added D3 football in recent years have stated that a reason for taking on this expense -- and football ain't cheap -- is that it makes the school more attractive for prospective male students.  A similar line of thinking could be that playing 2-3 games per year within an easy drive of where mom and dad can watch you play would make St. Norbert much more appealing to prospective student-athletes.  It would certainly increase the presence of the school's brand in these here parts, and could help to get the school into the consideration set for more students.  Switching conference affiliations would be a lot smoother path toward increasing their draw from the greater Chicagoland area than trying to do so solely through a concerted marketing push.

(And to be clear, I have no insider information to suggest that this is or is not the thinking up in Lombardiland, or whether the Green Knights would have any interest in our lovely little conference.  I'm just a random crank on the internet -- what do I know?)

It's a good point. As I said, it's an open question as to whether or not SNC would be able to successfully recruit Chicagoland against other CCIW schools on a regular basis if it joined our league. That's gonna stay a moot point for awhile, though, since St. Norbert is nothing more than a hypothetical in terms of future CCIW membership.

[bopol]

Couldn't help checking out these last few posts, and God help us (no pun intended), if we start to segregate colleges & universities by religion for athletic leagues.  In my opinion, college is the time to broaden your experiences (all kinds) rather than stifle them.  No "like minded".  I think the only factors that should determine D3 leagues are enrollment of the school and miles separating said schools.  Just how I've always felt about this.

This is seriously the dumbest thing I have read on the internet in a few days. 

The problem, as we all know, is that the Catholic men and women at this institutions would force the fine Protestants at the other CCIW institutions to fall in love with them and then they would marry (in the Catholic Church, of course) and all their children would be raised Catholic, bringing the dissenting Protestants back to the One True Church in a few generations.

That's why we can't have a Catholic college in the CCIW.

Did both of you not bother to read my post?

This unofficial policy is not about stifling the experiences of students by keeping the league religiously segregated. Nor is it about preventing CCIW student-athletes from meeting fellow CCIW student-athletes from a Catholic school and thereby being induced into swimming the Tiber. Come on, people. It's about keeping out a potential league rival that would have a recruiting advantage.

To make this about religion rather than recruiting is silly. It ignores the very obvious and stark differences that already exist in the CCIW in terms of the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) espoused by the current member schools. Most of the schools in this league are affiliated with what used to be called mainline Protestant denominations. Most of them still have formal ties to those denominations, but in some instances those ties are extremely vestigial. (Illinois Wesleyan is a good example, as Hoosier Titan spelled out for us a couple of years ago on CCIW Chat.) For all practical purposes, there's more than one school in this league that is completely secular in all but name. Then you've got Wheaton, which isn't affiliated with any Protestant denomination at all (although it's so thoroughly Protestant that it has no Catholics among the faculty) and which is thoroughly and completely evangelical. And there's North Park, likewise an evangelical school but with a significantly different ethos and student demographic than Wheaton's, and a tie to its' parent denomination (the Evangelical Covenant Church) that is rock-solid and highly conspicuous on campus. In some ways, it can be argued that a school like Benedictine -- where Catholicism is up-front and pervasive on campus -- is more akin to a Wheaton or a North Park than WC and NPU are to a heavily secularized CCIW school such as, say, Illinois Wesleyan. (I'm not simply saying that from a North Park point of view; there are any number of Wheaton grads, teachers, former teachers, etc. -- Mark Noll, Alan Jacobs, and Nathan Hatch spring to mind -- who would agree with me.)

Incidentally, I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with this unofficial policy. I simply report it.

What you wrote was pretty bigoted, so excuse me for pointing out the obvious. Now, I know those weren't your words and at least you have the guts to disagree with it (oh, no, you don't, you just won't say if you agree with it).

[Gregory Sager]

Bigoted? Just where the heck do you read bigotry into what I said?

I've already said that NCF might be right that a Catholic school would not enjoy the recruiting advantage that worries CCIW leadership. But she may be wrong, too. I don't know. I'm not sure that it's knowable at this point.

[bopol]

Bigoted? Just where the heck do you read bigotry into what I said?

I've already said that NCF might be right that a Catholic school would not enjoy the recruiting advantage that worries CCIW leadership. But she may be wrong, too. I don't know. I'm not sure that it's knowable at this point.

When you are excluding a school of a particular religion, it's bigoted.  That's what you said that you've heard some in the CCIW say, they'd have an unfair advantage, so they should be excluded.  Now, I'm not saying you're a bigot, I'm saying what you said you heard others say was bigoted.  You just won't say if you agree with it, so the question of you being bigoted is still open.

[Pat Coleman]

When you said "what you wrote was pretty bigoted" it was pretty easy to read it the way Gregory did.

[bopol]

When you said "what you wrote was pretty bigoted" it was pretty easy to read it the way Gregory did.

Excluding a school from a conference based on religious affiliation is bigoted.  The reasoning that he proposed is just plain stupid.  If what he wrote were true, the Chicago Catholic colleges would be dominating the region athletically.  They don't.  So, it sounds like a thinly veiled excuse to be a bigot.  But maybe you and Greg are right, and they're just stupid. 

[Pat Coleman]

Bopol, I'm just saying that what you wrote sounds like you were accusing Gregory of being bigoted himself. Slow down and read.

[bopol]

Bopol, I'm just saying that what you wrote sounds like you were accusing Gregory of being bigoted himself. Slow down and read.

I read it.  Excluding a school based on religious affiliation is bigoted, especially given the lame excuses he heard.  Now, Greg won't say if he agrees or disagrees with that.  So, it might be that he is bigoted.

[AndOne]

Recruiting news..............

Wesleyan recruits:

Drew Jones 6'5" F from Elgin Larkin. 9.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 77% FT%

Issac Roethemeyer 6'7" F from Edinburg IL HS (Class 1A) 20.1 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, 59% FG, 75% FT

[Gregory Sager]

When you are excluding a school of a particular religion, it's bigoted.

No, it isn't. Bigotry is intolerance of, and prejudice towards, something or someone because of a characteristic intrinsic to that thing or person. Nobody in this instance is intolerant of or prejudiced towards the region's D3 Catholic colleges because of their Catholicism. Their bias against admitting any of those schools as a CCIW member has to do with recruiting issues, plain and simple.

To imply that any CCIW school, or any CCIW administrator, is bigoted against Catholic schools because of an anti-Catholic bias is simply ridiculous. All of the prima facie evidence is to the contrary. Every single school in the CCIW plays opponents that have Catholic affiliations. Every single school in the CCIW includes players and/or coaches who have attended Catholic schools.

Beyond that, every school or institution has the right to include or exclude students, faculty, administrators, etc., according to creed. That's the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution at work. That's how schools and institutions maintain their identities, if their identities are that particularistic. It isn't bigoted at all, because that's not what bigotry is. Certain associations simply have creedal guidelines to their membership. Billy Graham can't join the Knights of Columbus; Cardinal George can't join the National Association of Evangelicals. That doesn't make either the K of C or the NAE bigoted.

None of that has anything to do with the CCIW, though, because the CCIW is a non-creedal outfit. The CCIW doesn't exclude schools for doctrinal reasons. It simply has the right to control its' membership with regard to pragmatic issues such as student-athlete recruitment.

You're simply wrong about this.

When you said "what you wrote was pretty bigoted" it was pretty easy to read it the way Gregory did.

Excluding a school from a conference based on religious affiliation is bigoted.

No, it isn't. Bigotry would be a valid charge if they were excluded because of their Catholicism itself, or because of some aspect of it. Nobody's keeping Benedictine out of the league because of papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, or the argument of sola scriptura versus Scripture Plus Tradition.

The reasoning that he proposed is just plain stupid.

You're doing yourself a serious disservice by tossing around that word here.

If what he wrote were true, the Chicago Catholic colleges would be dominating the region athletically.

Wrong. There are any number of different factors that enter into athletic dominance: Funding, facilities, coaching acumen, location, administrative support, tradition, etc. All of them affect the outcome in terms of a school's athletic success. And among those factors is league affiliation -- and it's a big one. It's the reason why the CCIW has been approached in the past by schools seeking membership, and will continue to be approached. The CCIW styles itself as "The Best Small-College Conference in the Nation", and while that slogan is certainly open to dispute, it's undeniably the powerhouse league in these parts. And because of that, CCIW member schools have a leg up on non-CCIW schools when it comes to recruiting local D3-quality student-athletes. That's not a brag; it's simply the truth.

They don't.  So, it sounds like a thinly veiled excuse to be a bigot.

No, your reasoning is simply wrong about what causes athletic dominance.

But maybe you and Greg are right, and they're just stupid.

[Titan Q]

Recruiting news..............

Wesleyan recruits:

Drew Jones 6'5" F from Elgin Larkin. 9.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 2.9 apg, 1.5 spg, 77% FT%

Issac Roethemeyer 6'7" F from Edinburg IL HS (Class 1A) 20.1 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 6.3 apg, 59% FG, 75% FT

As far as I know (from Twitter, newspaper articles, etc), this is the current list of student-athletes who have decided to enroll at IWU and play basketball...

1/2
* Brady Rose, 6-2 PG/SG (Bloomington H.S.) - 16.7 ppg, 3.3 apg, 82 3-pointers - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyMEgLzN5OY
* Kevin Connelly, 6-5 SG (Nazareth Academy) - 11.4 ppg, 6.8 rpg - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1HhKcAHIfw&feature=youtu.be

3
* Jaylen Beasley, 6-6 SF (Bloomington H.S.) - 15.0 ppg, 11.2 rpg - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHy79nmwXcs
* John Carroll, 6-5 G/F (Ottawa H.S.) - 20.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.7 apg
* Drew Jones, 6-5 SF (Larkin H.S.) - 9.2 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 2.9 apg

4/5
* Isaac Roethemeyer, 6-7 F/C (Edinburg H.S.) - 18.5 ppg, 11.2 rpg - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqkCc3sMZvM

[Pat Coleman]

Bopol, I'm just saying that what you wrote sounds like you were accusing Gregory of being bigoted himself. Slow down and read.

I read it.  Excluding a school based on religious affiliation is bigoted, especially given the lame excuses he heard.  Now, Greg won't say if he agrees or disagrees with that.  So, it might be that he is bigoted.

Do stop. I'd hate to have to revoke your posting privileges.

[bopol]

When you are excluding a school of a particular religion, it's bigoted.

No, it isn't. Bigotry is intolerance of, and prejudice towards, something or someone because of a characteristic intrinsic to that thing or person. Nobody in this instance is intolerant of or prejudiced towards the region's D3 Catholic colleges because of their Catholicism. Their bias against admitting any of those schools as a CCIW member has to do with recruiting issues, plain and simple.

To imply that any CCIW school, or any CCIW administrator, is bigoted against Catholic schools because of an anti-Catholic bias is simply ridiculous. All of the prima facie evidence is to the contrary. Every single school in the CCIW plays opponents that have Catholic affiliations. Every single school in the CCIW includes players and/or coaches who have attended Catholic schools.

Beyond that, every school or institution has the right to include or exclude students, faculty, administrators, etc., according to creed. That's the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution at work. That's how schools and institutions maintain their identities, if their identities are that particularistic. It isn't bigoted at all, because that's not what bigotry is. Certain associations simply have creedal guidelines to their membership. Billy Graham can't join the Knights of Columbus; Cardinal George can't join the National Association of Evangelicals. That doesn't make either the K of C or the NAE bigoted.

None of that has anything to do with the CCIW, though, because the CCIW is a non-creedal outfit. The CCIW doesn't exclude schools for doctrinal reasons. It simply has the right to control its' membership with regard to pragmatic issues such as student-athlete recruitment.

You're simply wrong about this.

The recruiting issue is a red herring.  You can try to justify it all you want, but there is no evidence at all that a Chicago area Catholic school would suddenly dominate if they were admitted to the CCIW.   Any advantage that might be gained by being a Catholic school in the league would be countered for the same reason that these schools don't dominate now.  Most players aren't Catholic; those that may seek a Catholic higher education and are talented at a particular sport may still consider other schools (St. Xavier, Lewis, Cardinal Stritch, Dominican).  Now, I believe that, if an argument trying to justify a particular action doesn't make sense, then there might be something else going on. 

Now, after saying that it's not a recruiting issue, you then go onto a bit about how schools have a right to exclude those who don't believe as they do.  You have posted a link about how Wheaton basically didn't know how to deal with a Catholic teaching in their philosophy department, talk about the First Amendment and all that.  Now, that's just weird.  If it's truly recruiting issue, why are you trying to justify the argument by posting that Wheaton doesn't like the Catholics teaching their students?

Then you take it a step farther and say that the CCIW schools play Catholic schools, so they couldn't possibly be bigoted, which doesn't sound at all like the "I have a black friend, so I'm not racist" views that have and still exist today.  That isn't a good supporting point at all.

So, at the end, your argument is that it is a recruiting issue, but even if it weren't, it would be ok if the administrations of some CCIW schools wanted to be bigoted because that's their right.

And you haven't remotely begun to justify the recruiting issue in my mind.  It simply makes no sense and I'm surprised you are trying to make it.  Without that argument, I end up with the bigoted viewpoint, which is just too bad in this day and age.

[bopol]

Bopol, I'm just saying that what you wrote sounds like you were accusing Gregory of being bigoted himself. Slow down and read.

I read it.  Excluding a school based on religious affiliation is bigoted, especially given the lame excuses he heard.  Now, Greg won't say if he agrees or disagrees with that.  So, it might be that he is bigoted.

Do stop. I'd hate to have to revoke your posting privileges.

Well, that'd be a good way to make sure no one calls out any sort of prejudices, just silence the debate.