MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[bbfan44]

Hope hit 20 for 20 from the charity stripe today vs Wheaton.  Quite impressive.

[Gregory Sager]

Hope hit 20 for 20 from the charity stripe today vs Wheaton.  Quite impressive.

What really impresses me in that regard is what Wheaton is doing from the charity stripe this season. The Schauer Brigade is shooting 86% as a team (129-150) at the free-throw line through eight games. That's just insane.

[AndOne]

The hallmark of Bosko's coaching is that he's a great teacher of the game. Ask any coach in this league, or anybody who's ever played for him, and that's the first thing they'll say. And it's because of that that his players have had that tendency that I mentioned, the tendency to make those big jumps from soph to junior and from junior to senior. It's not a coincidence. It's also not because of a magic wand. It's because Bosko knows how to teach the game, and he knows how to get his players to unlock the innate ability within them to make those jumps. It obviously doesn't work with every kid -- probably not even with most of them -- but it's worked with enough kids for Bosko to have had the kind of career he's had.

I know about those kids on his roster. I know that other CCIW schools wanted several of them, and that tells me that their potential was well-recognized. Yes, Bosko has apparently hit a wall with most or all of them. It can happen. He's not a miracle worker. But his track record very logically led me to think that those players would make that leap, or at least some of them.

Greg,

Given your assessment of Bosko's coaching talents plus your position that several other schools wanted several of the players currently populating the Carthage roster, do you have a theory as to why he was able to attract only two freshman recruits this season?

[petemcb]

The hallmark of Bosko's coaching is that he's a great teacher of the game. Ask any coach in this league, or anybody who's ever played for him, and that's the first thing they'll say. And it's because of that that his players have had that tendency that I mentioned, the tendency to make those big jumps from soph to junior and from junior to senior. It's not a coincidence. It's also not because of a magic wand. It's because Bosko knows how to teach the game, and he knows how to get his players to unlock the innate ability within them to make those jumps. It obviously doesn't work with every kid -- probably not even with most of them -- but it's worked with enough kids for Bosko to have had the kind of career he's had.

I know about those kids on his roster. I know that other CCIW schools wanted several of them, and that tells me that their potential was well-recognized. Yes, Bosko has apparently hit a wall with most or all of them. It can happen. He's not a miracle worker. But his track record very logically led me to think that those players would make that leap, or at least some of them.

Greg,

Given your assessment of Bosko's coaching talents plus your position that several other schools wanted several of the players currently populating the Carthage roster, do you have a theory as to why he was able to attract only two freshman recruits this season?

I learned recently that  a recruit post player that Carthage thought they had lined up couldn't make the finances work.  I've seen him play.  He would have been a serious difference-maker as a freshman.  He would probably have started for most teams in the CCIW.  Financial Aid is not Bosko's domain or responsibility as a coach. 

[Gregory Sager]

I'm as stumped as anybody as to why the Carthage men's basketball recruiting pipeline has dried up so drastically. It might be something that's laid at Dave Roehl's feet, given that he was the chief assistant last year (and thus, presumably, the recruiting coordinator) and that Bosko's not exactly the most hands-on coach in the world when it comes to recruiting -- although, as the head coach, Bosko would have to bear "the buck stops here" ultimate responsibility. I'm a little wary of pointing the finger of blame at any one person in particular, though, without more information as to the inner workings of how Carthage does its recruiting.

I wonder how much of this has to do with the change in Carthage's aid policy. As has been discussed on d3boards.com in the past, Carthage used to match Illinois state aid in order to compete with Illinois-based schools for students, which helped explain why the rosters of all of Carthage's athletic teams tended to be two-thirds to three-quarters Illinoisians. That was a smart policy, because Carthage is just across the border from a metro area of over eight million people. But it was also an expensive policy in terms of the school's aid budget, and my contacts within Carthage have told me that that policy has been abandoned. Carthage is thus having to recruit more in-state prospects -- and that's a tough row to hoe, because it means competing against the far-cheaper WIAC schools.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the competitiveness of Carthage's men's teams in the CCIW context has been on the wane in recent years. The Carthage football program has really gone into the tank, and the Carthage baseball program, once a national power, has seen a shocking decline lately -- shocking because the same coach who was winning CCIW titles and making deep forays into the D3 tourney year after year, Augie Schmidt, is still running the program. Augie Schmidt didn't suddenly forget how to coach baseball any more than Bosko's forgotten how to coach basketball. Carthage men's soccer is still respectable under Steve Domin, a very good coach, but he hasn't been able to take the Red Men to the next level as a program. Red Men football, baseball, and soccer rosters still consist mostly of Illinoisians, but it makes me wonder if the financial aid situation is causing Carthage to lose a lot more recruiting battles for CCIW-caliber student-athletes on this side of the Cheddar Curtain than it used to.

Carthage's success in the CCIW is now mostly in women's sports -- the Lady Reds continue to be a dominant force in CCIW volleyball, women's basketball, and softball -- but recruiting for women's sports is a completely different kettle of fish than it is for men's sports.

[Gregory Sager]

... and, just as I hit "send," Pete echoes a similar thought. He's someone who's had to deal firsthand with Carthage financial aid, so I defer to his thoughts on this subject.

[Titan Q]

For whatever reason, it seems like Carthage has not consistently recruited well for many seasons now.  Here are Carthage's records in the 11 seasons since the Antoine McDaniel/Rob Garnes class graduated...

2004: 7-7
2005: 8-6
2006: 6-8
2007: 7-7
2008: 7-7
2009: 7-7
2010: 12-2 (1st)
2011: 9-5
2012: 6-8
2013: 7-7
2014: 9-5

85-69 (.552), with just one CCIW title and 2 NCAA tournament wins.  The one title, and the 2 NCAA wins, were almost exclusively due to the fact that Steve Djurickovic (a player Carthage certainly did not have to recruit) ended up being one of the top 2-3 players in Division III.  (Carthage certainly had other good players on that 2009-10 team, but without Djurickovic they wouldn't have been close to CCIW contention or the NCAA tournament.)

As I look back on this stretch of years at Carthage, the Red Men just haven't consistently had good enough players.  It's been a recruiting problem in my opinion.

If you would have told me this back in about 2001-02 - when they had Wiertel, McDaniel, and Garnes - that this would happen, I would just absolutely not have believed it. 

And for the record, I am a big Bosko fan.  I think he's a strong Xs and O's coach, a consistent advocate for the CCIW, and a guy who always takes personal accountability for bad games.  I have talked to Bosko in a many a Division III gym and I think he's one of the good guys around the league and D3.  I'm just surprised how this has played out.

[Titan Q]

On the surface, I don't really buy the financial aid thing.  The CCIW's top schools are all very expensive and these staffs are still bringing in great recruiting classes.  You adjust to what your school's price tag and financial aid rules are, and find a way to get it done I think.

Recruiting is a 12-month, non-stop, tireless process.  Watching (from afar) what Ron Rose and his staff do every year - it's makes me tired just thinking about it.  And I know how hard Grey Giovanine and his staff hit it.  (Just to point out two top CCIW programs.)  Is Carthage out there like these two schools are?  I'm not sure. 

[AndOne]

The hallmark of Bosko's coaching is that he's a great teacher of the game. Ask any coach in this league, or anybody who's ever played for him, and that's the first thing they'll say. And it's because of that that his players have had that tendency that I mentioned, the tendency to make those big jumps from soph to junior and from junior to senior. It's not a coincidence. It's also not because of a magic wand. It's because Bosko knows how to teach the game, and he knows how to get his players to unlock the innate ability within them to make those jumps. It obviously doesn't work with every kid -- probably not even with most of them -- but it's worked with enough kids for Bosko to have had the kind of career he's had.

I know about those kids on his roster. I know that other CCIW schools wanted several of them, and that tells me that their potential was well-recognized. Yes, Bosko has apparently hit a wall with most or all of them. It can happen. He's not a miracle worker. But his track record very logically led me to think that those players would make that leap, or at least some of them.

Greg,

Given your assessment of Bosko's coaching talents plus your position that several other schools wanted several of the players currently populating the Carthage roster, do you have a theory as to why he was able to attract only two freshman recruits this season?

I learned recently that  a recruit post player that Carthage thought they had lined up couldn't make the finances work.  I've seen him play.  He would have been a serious difference-maker as a freshman.  He would probably have started for most teams in the CCIW.  Financial Aid is not Bosko's domain or responsibility as a coach.

Finances can certainly be a stumbling block when it comes to both initial entance or continued enrollment. A school I know well had a similar experience recently in that they lost a player who would have been a soph this season and would have been part of the regular rotation. However, the family just could not continue to afford a private school, even with aid, and the player now attends an IL State school.

I also know a post player that a school other than Carthage thought they had lined up for this season who also couldn't make the family finances work. This particular kid now attends an NAIA school. I wonder if its the same kid Carthage thought they had. 

Lastly, as financial aid in not within Bosko's domain, it is also not within the domain of all or a vast majority of other head coaches. What is interesting, and at a times might make a difference, is to just what degree a head coach might actually BE involved. Financial Aid initially presents a "package" consisting of $$ dollars. The head coach phones the FA office and declares the kid a difference maker and wonders if the package can't be increased from $$ to $$$$. FA comes back with $$$, and that, possibly with a loan and a campus work opportunity added in, results in a workable solution for the family, and the student-athlete's enrollment.

[Titan Q]

I learned recently that  a recruit post player that Carthage thought they had lined up couldn't make the finances work.  I've seen him play.  He would have been a serious difference-maker as a freshman.  He would probably have started for most teams in the CCIW.  Financial Aid is not Bosko's domain or responsibility as a coach.

I am confident that every CCIW school has its share of these guys though, Pete. 

[Gregory Sager]

I was thinking about Carthage's string of mediocre seasons last night after I read Mark's post, Bob. Over the past decade, Carthage really has not been able to land the necessary stud recruits to keep the program in the CCIW title hunt year after year ... and, as you pointed out, the one stud recruit who did enable the Red Men to break through was sitting across the breakfast table from Bosko every morning.

Bosko has continued to be able to induce a substantial number of his players to improve from one year to the next -- guys like Pat Kalamatas, Mitch Thompson, Billy Jacklin, Marlon Senior, Adam Stuart, and Kevin Sykes demonstrate that -- but he's not working with blue chips of the caliber of Garnes, Wiertel, McDaniel, and Powell anymore, or at least not multiple blue chips simultaneously, and he really hasn't had them consistently for over a decade.

But Mark's question, which is directed at the more immediate sticks-out-like-a-sore-thumb problem of Carthage's two-man freshman class, is really about something else entirely. (And, what's worse, both of Carthage's freshmen are legacies, in a sense; Andrew Telschow is the nephew of former Carthage superstar Gordy Zastrow, and Brad Kruse is the son of North Park legend Freddie Kruse, who played for Bosko when the latter was an assistant coach at NPC under Dan McCarrell in the early '80s. In other words, it's not as though Carthage and/or Bosko was an unknown brand in the Zastrow and Kruse households prior to the recruiting process.)

On the surface, I don't really buy the financial aid thing.  The CCIW's top schools are all very expensive and these staffs are still bringing in great recruiting classes.  You adjust to what your school's price tag and financial aid rules are, and find a way to get it done I think.

Every school has pluses and minuses when it comes to recruiting, we all know that. But changing a financial aid policy can have a dramatic impact upon how a coaching staff goes about its work, and it can affect the overall tenor of an athletic department. To me, the decline of Carthage baseball, which was so dominant for so many years under both Augie Schmidt III and Augie Schmidt IV, is an even bigger indicator that things aren't what they used to be in terms of the way that that school operates with regard to recruiting. And it's a lot easier for those of us who don't follow a certain school to dismiss that school's inherent problems than it is to acknowledge them. Wheaton can only admit evangelical Christians with ACTs over 30 (or SATs over 1450), and, since the Wheaton aid package sucks, your mom and dad have to have a ton of scratch in order for you to go there? Big deal, Wheaton fans. Suck it up. North Park has to overcome the fact that it's an urban school that needs to recruit suburban kids for a lot of sports that barely exist in the city? Too bad, North Park. Carthage can't compete as well as it used to in terms of aid for suburban Chicagolanders, so now it has to compete in Wisconsin with much-cheaper WIAC schools? Tough toenails, Carthaginians.

I think that a little understanding and clarity is called for here.

[Titan Q]

Every school has pluses and minuses when it comes to recruiting, we all know that. But changing a financial aid policy can have a dramatic impact upon how a coaching staff goes about its work, and it can affect the overall tenor of an athletic department. To me, the decline of Carthage baseball, which was so dominant for so many years under both Augie Schmidt III and Augie Schmidt IV, is an even bigger indicator that things aren't what they used to be in terms of the way that that school operates with regard to recruiting. And it's a lot easier for those of us who don't follow a certain school to dismiss that school's inherent problems than it is to acknowledge them. Wheaton can only admit evangelical Christians with ACTs over 30 (or SATs over 1450), and, since the Wheaton aid package sucks, your mom and dad have to have a ton of scratch in order for you to go there? Big deal, Wheaton fans. Suck it up. North Park has to overcome the fact that it's an urban school that needs to recruit suburban kids for a lot of sports that barely exist in the city? Too bad, North Park. Carthage can't compete as well as it used to in terms of aid for suburban Chicagolanders, so now it has to compete in Wisconsin with much-cheaper WIAC schools? Tough toenails, Carthaginians.

I think that a little understanding and clarity is called for here.

I'm sure the financial aid policy is a significant factor.  For me, however, the bottom line is:

*  Carthage has two freshmen basketball players (who are both "legacies"). 

* The freshman classes at the schools that have finished in the bottom three the last four years (Elmhurst, Millikin, North Park) appear to be dramatically better than Carthage's. 

Something besides the financial aid policy has to be off here.  It just seems strange.

[Gregory Sager]

Lastly, as financial aid in not within Bosko's domain, it is also not within the domain of all or a vast majority of other head coaches. What is interesting, and at a times might make a difference, is to just what degree a head coach might actually BE involved. Financial Aid initially presents a "package" consisting of $$ dollars. The head coach phones the FA office and declares the kid a difference maker and wonders if the package can't be increased from $$ to $$$$. FA comes back with $$$, and that, possibly with a loan and a campus work opportunity added in, results in a workable solution for the family, and the student-athlete's enrollment.

I can address this one directly, at least within the North Park perspective, because I had a conversation with a North Park head coach relating to this just yesterday. I was in the office of NPU head football coach Mike Conway on Saturday morning; it was a big day (41 football prospects on campus), and he was steeling himself for a very long afternoon of player and parent interviews. We talked about recruiting for a bit, and I happened to say something about financial aid. He responded, "I'm not allowed to talk about financial aid at all in recruiting. That's school policy." So he can't phone the FA office over in Old Main and try to lean upon the FA people, because he's not even allowed to discuss the subject with a prospect and/or his parents. He can tell them, if the subject of cost comes up, that his two sons gave up football scholarships in order to transfer to North Park, that he and his wife Beth embraced Dakota's and T.D.'s decisions, that the Conways thus have to pay for the college education of their sons, and that none of the four Conways has ever had second thoughts about it because all four of them devoutly believe in what NPU is all about and value what Dakota and T.D. are getting out of their experience there. And his saying that in these meetings probably does make a big impression upon prospects and their parents. But he's only allowed to talk about his family's financial situation with regard to putting a kid or kids through North Park, not their family's.

I'm sure the financial aid policy is a significant factor.  For me, however, the bottom line is:

*  Carthage has two freshmen basketball players (who are both "legacies"). 

* The freshman classes at the schools that have finished in the bottom three the last four years (Elmhurst, Millikin, North Park) appear to be dramatically better than Carthage's. 

Something besides the financial aid policy has to be off here.  It just seems strange.

I agree, which (unfortunately and regretfully) brings me around again to my earlier speculation about the coaching staff.

[Gregory Sager]

Let me add, parenthetically, that I have always valued the fact that you can discuss a relevant topic like this on CCIW Chat, even in-season, without people kvetching at you for talking about something other than basketball.

[sac]

Bosko also needs to quit recruiting 6-9 players with NBA aspirations, when they go pro it leaves a hole in your roster.