MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[veterancciwfan]

Greg: I know you were just kidding regarding your post about Fritz Larsen and homer calls for IWU. Ask any CCIW coach, and they would unanimously say Fritz has been an outstanding official in the league and that they would want him calling a big late season game. We occasionally criticize officials on this site, but their job is incredibly hard. I have noticed an increase in the number of CCIW games this season that I considered a well called game. Maybe other posters might share their opinions about CCIW refs this year. Even Dave Laning, who I have knocked before, called a good game at Carthage last Saturday.   

[Gregory Sager]

I think it's established that Wheaton has somewhat more to overcome in recruiting than the rest of the league- significantly more in some cases.

Boy, do I vehemently disagree with that.

Respectfully, I think you're reading a little too much into my statement.  The context was responding to an implication that Mike Schauer was asleep at the recruiting wheel vis a vis Ron Rose.  The factors are not an excuse of any sort, but they are situational fact.

Oh, I understood the context just fine. But it does not seem to me that the context alters the meaning of your statement in any way, since it was a rather sweeping declaration.

I don't think that you realize just how hard it is to recruit D3 student-athletes to come to a city school. Even in basketball -- the one sport in which the city of Chicago is not a preps desert, comparatively speaking -- the city is a hard hurdle to overcome. Not only are suburban basketball players wary of NPU's recruiting pitch to attend school in the big, bad urban jungle, but the city-bred talent in hoops is difficult to exploit, because so few kids who attend Chicago public schools can hack either the academic demands or the price tag of a North Park education. And many of the city kids who can handle both the books and the bills of a CCIW education want to leave town and experience life on the other side of the city limits in a more buttoned-down environment (Exhibit A: Erwin Henry of North Central, who specifically picked NCC over NPU because he wanted to get out of the city.).

I'm not quite buying this.  Yes, it's axiomatic that many in the city are not candidates for any 4 yr school from an academic and cost standpoint.  But is it suggested that North Park's only fertile recruiting ground is the CPS?

No, speaking strictly in terms of men's basketball, the CPS isn't North Park's only fertile recruiting ground. NPU has had great success in the past in recruiting the Chicago Catholic League as well. But that's only one league; you can't really build an entire program off of CCL talent.

North Park is forced by sheer numbers in terms of academics and cost to look outside the city for most of its recruits. And that's where the disadvantages kick in.

And while I would believe that the city location might be a negative to some, would it not be a positive to plenty of recruits from the suburbs?  At the very least, it did not deter Jordan Robinson who would've been welcome on any CCIW roster.

Here I must quote the old axiom that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data." Yes, NPU was able to pluck Jordan Robinson from the suburbs. In fact, NPU tends to have more suburban players than city players or out-of-state players (don't even bother asking about downstaters, since NPU's hardly ever bothered recruiting non-Chicagoland Illinoisians, with the exception of Rockford). But that's misleading. The issue is that NPU's success rate for recruiting suburban student-athletes is very low as compared to other CCIW schools, especially at the point of first contact. This is true even in sports in which the Park has had success, such as baseball and men's soccer.

The fact of the matter is that sociology works against North Park in terms of recruiting the suburbs. Yes, there are suburban teenagers who love the city, or at least the thought of it, and who are thus drawn to the idea of going to school there. (I was one of them, although the suburb in which I was raised was located in a different state; as a 17-year-old I picked North Park over Wheaton as my college of choice in large part because I wanted to experience a big city.) But those urbanophile teenagers out in the 'burbs are a very limited minority. The vast majority of suburban kids prefer to stay within their comfort zone, and what they know is suburban life. They prefer schools that are likewise located in suburbs, or, alternatively, in small cities that have a suburban feel to them. I'm certainly not knocking them for that. Kids have the right to make their college choices for whatever reasons they see fit. As Joe said, those decisions are emotional and often irrational.

(The irony is that twentysomething suburbanites flock to the city in great numbers. They are thick on the ground in yuppie North Side neighborhoods such as Lincoln Park, Bucktown, Lincoln Square, and Lakeview and in hipster 'hoods like Roscoe Village, East Humboldt Park, Wicker Park, and Ukrainian Village. Former NPU assistant Steve Schafer used to try to use that when making his sales pitch for NPU basketball to suburban players by saying, "You probably have an older brother or sister who lives in the city, right? Or one of your friends does? Well, why put off moving to the city after graduation when you can go there for college and already be a native once you graduate?")

It's even harder for NPU to overcome this problem in other sports than it is in basketball, since, as kiko said, the numbers game in terms of recruiting is much smaller in this sport than it is in some of the other sports. NPU coaches have to be very creative in some of those sports that require large numbers of incoming recruits every year. After a few years of spinning his wheels in the same manner as all of his predecessors, previous North Park football head coach Scott Pethtel tried getting around the suburban problem by installing a triple option offense, in the hopes of tapping into a small-town, small-high-school recruiting pool otherwise neglected by midwestern D3 football programs. His successor, current NPU football head coach Mike Conway, has found an alternative player pipeline in American Samoa, of all places. NPU men's soccer head coach John Born has had great success in bringing over top-notch players from Sweden. And NPU baseball head coach Luke Johnson has put his emphasis upon coaching methodology and networking rather than any specific alternate pipeline, his theory being that excellence in fundamentals, work ethic, and a hard-nosed attitude on the field will act as a draw by spreading the program's reputation among high-school and juco coaches throughout the midwest.

Trust me on this, GoPerry. I've been connected to North Park for three and a half decades as a student, employee, and fan, and I've been a fixture in the school's athletics offices for a long time as well. This is the reality that North Park athletics faces. It is simply very difficult for NPU to draw suburban athletes. It's obviously not impossible, but it is very difficult, even in those sports in which the Vikings do well.

I'm inclined to believe that location would be less of a factor should NPU challenge for the league title over the next 2-3 years.

That's true. It would ameliorate the problem somewhat. Winning always does, since the one thing that draws high-school athletes more than anything is the chance to win at the college level. But it wouldn't make the problem go away. As I said, it hasn't made the problem go away in terms of baseball and men's soccer.

By the way, as a Covenant Church institution, I don't know if or how that plays into the makeup of Slyder's pool(do students sign a statement, attend required chapel, etc).

As Gotberg said, NPU follows the open-enrollment polity of some Christian colleges by admitting students of all faiths (or no faith at all), as opposed to Wheaton's closed-enrollment polity of only admitting professed evangelical Christians as students. Neither polity is better than the other; they're simply institutional choices that best fit the respective missions of various Christian colleges. Chapel is no longer mandatory at NPU, and hasn't been for many years, although it is very well-attended and NPU's University Ministries thrives with a very high percentage of student participation. Students at North Park are not required to sign any statements, either faith-based or behavior-based, upon enrollment -- although they are made aware of the rules (including the fact that it's a dry campus) and the penalties involved if the rules are broken.

It does affect the pool somewhat, in that coaches really can't disguise the fact that North Park is an explicitly Christian institution (although some have rather foolishly tried to avoid the subject). The school's faith-based nature has tended to be more of a problem with retention than with recruitment in terms of student-athletes, as a lot of NPU student-athletes over the years have decided after a semester or a year at the Park that they'd like to go to a place where they can indulge in all of the usual post-adolescent activities that in an earlier age were commonly referred to as "vices" -- things North Park frowns upon, or at least tries not to encourage.

None of us would deny that recruiting at the D3 level is hard and competitive for every coach who must sell the merits of their program over another.  Every school has it's natural advantages or disadvantages with regard to locale, quality of program, academics, facilities, size, student life.  Institutional buy-in is pretty big too.

Absolutely agree with that.

It is interesting to read the posts on the difficulties of recruiting after many posters refer to recruiting almost like shopping.  "Why didn't Coach X just recruit an All-State All-Academic player for a certain position?"  This sentiment supposes that coaches just choose from the stock of players who are sitting there waiting for the teacher to call on them.  It just doesn't work that way.

All schools have their difficulties in recruitment of students, and particularly of student athletes.  Changes in a school's academic profile, cost, or financial aid policies along with the intended major (at least for the first few weeks of school) can change the type of young man or woman that a coach can realistically have a chance to successfully recruit.  It is the hardest part of coaching because you are reliant upon the whims of seventeen year olds as well as the financial ability of the parents to pay.  Add in the expectations that parents have for their "most-wonderful-and-talented-child-that-has-ever-lived" that they have supported to the nth degree for many years, and it is an emotional and often irrational decision that determines where they go. 

Bosko said something to me years ago about recruiting that has stuck with me and I have passed this along to many coaches who have worked for me.  There is no runner-up prize in recruiting; you either got 'em or you didn't.  The fortunes of many programs might be markedly different but for a few enrollment decisions.  It is the hardest single job duty (and probably the most important) that DIII coaches have on their plate. 

Very well said, Joe.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg: I know you were just kidding regarding your post about Fritz Larsen and homer calls for IWU. Ask any CCIW coach, and they would unanimously say Fritz has been an outstanding official in the league and that they would want him calling a big late season game.

No, I was serious, and it's CCIW coaches -- not simply NPU coaches, either -- who've told me that they've felt that Fritz Larsen has jobbed them at Shirk (or at Fred Young before that). In the interest of full disclosure, I should say that I'm actually agnostic on the Larsen-IWU issue in terms of direct observation, because I really haven't been to that many games in Bloomington. But I've heard those things said about him more than once, and by more than one coach, so to me there's a where-there's-smoke-there's-fire feel to this issue.

We occasionally criticize officials on this site, but their job is incredibly hard. I have noticed an increase in the number of CCIW games this season that I considered a well called game. Maybe other posters might share their opinions about CCIW refs this year. Even Dave Laning, who I have knocked before, called a good game at Carthage last Saturday.

I absolutely agree with you with regard to how difficult it is to officiate a college basketball game, and I personally haven't had a tremendous amount of complaints about the officiating in games that I've seen. As for Dave Laning, I've always felt that he was one of the better refs in the CCIW officiating pool.

[Gregory Sager]

I would also argue that Carthage is becoming more and more of a tough place to recruit, and not just based on the evidence of this year's much-discussed thin freshman class for Bosko & Co. The bread and butter of Carthage athletics was the school's long-standing policy of matching the state aid given to Illinois students who stay in-state, which allowed Carthage to mine the suburbs for student-athletes. With that policy gone by the wayside due to budgetary cutbacks, Carthage now has to recruit as an out-of-state school in what had once been its most fertile recruiting ground. Meanwhile, on the other side of the cheddar curtain, Carthage has to compete for high-school prospects with the WIAC schools, who can offer just as competitive a sports environment for Wisconsin kids at a fraction of the cost of Carthage's tuition and r&b.

This is absolutely true.

Out of curiosity, does Carroll face these same challenges as Carthage?  Not sure what their tuition policy is/was or how it impacts where they go trolling for power forwards.  But it will become relevant to us soon enough.

I'm not 100% sure, but I tend to doubt it. Carroll's never been as Illinois-oriented when it comes to the school's student body -- either athletes or students at large -- as Carthage has been. That's a function of geography, since the Carthage campus is within spitting distance of us FIBs while Carroll is further north and is located in a suburb of Wisconsin's largest metropolitan area.

Carroll does have its fair share of Illinoisians on its rosters -- five of the thirteen Pioneers on the men's basketball team are from our side of the Halas-Lombardi Line -- but the rosters of the other sports tend to be much more heavily weighted towards "Sconnies," as the folks in Minnesota like to call our neighbors to the north.

The interesting thing is that, when the announcement was made by the CCIW that Carroll was re-entering the league, a video clip of an interview by one of Milwaukee's TV stations with CU athletic director Joe Baker was posted either here or in the CCIW football room. (I can't remember which.) In that interview, Baker expressed his confidence that joining the CCIW was going to make Carroll a more attractive destination for Chicagoland high-school athletes. That remains to be seen, of course, but I wonder if he was tipping his hand that it's going to be departmental policy for Carroll coaches to now consider Chicagoland to be a more active recruiting zone.

[WUPHF]

I keep worrying that sooner or later the committee is going to get fed up with taking one Central Region team after another, and that a deserving team from this region might get left on the table because somebody on the committee thinks that there's already too many Central Region teams in Pool C, primary criteria notwithstanding.

This was my question from last week.  Knowing that there are no maximums or minimums in the search for Pool C teams, how many teams could the committee take before the look elsewhere for geographic diversity?

[Naperick]

Agree if there was ever a year to differentiate COY vs. Coach X who wins the CCIW  this is the year to do it.  Baines and Slyder have brought programs that earlier would have been viewed as "out of the picture", into contention.

Massey has Wheaton a mere 3 point home dog tomorrow night jaybird and Naperick . . . sounds a little thin doesn't it?!

At first glance, it does seem a bit thin.  But the last 3 weeks in CCIW play has provided a lot of surprises.  And I believe the 'Jays win over Wheaton in Elmhurst was by single digits.  You just never know. 

I would be happy with a 1 point win for the Bluejays.

[Naperick]

I keep worrying that sooner or later the committee is going to get fed up with taking one Central Region team after another, and that a deserving team from this region might get left on the table because somebody on the committee thinks that there's already too many Central Region teams in Pool C, primary criteria notwithstanding.

This was my question from last week.  Knowing that there are no maximums or minimums in the search for Pool C teams, how many teams could the committee take before the look elsewhere for geographic diversity?

I still think Carthage should have made it last year.  They met the criteria.  Maybe it was 10 loses or they would have been the 4th CCIW team or geographic diversity? 

2 CCIW's should make it this year.  The probability is good for a 3rd CCIW team.  A 4th CCIW is probably doubtful.

[joehakes]

Thanks, Greg.  It will seem gratutious to say this, given the compliment, but your description of North Park and Wheaton is really spot on.  Neither is right or wrong, but consistent in their view of the students that they seek.

On the issue of "regional overload" the national committee is instructed to look at the numbers and as one Pool C selection is made the next institution from that region is added to the eight on the board.  If their numbers warrant being the next selection they are to be selected.  Sometimes it is clear and sometimes the various numbers intertwine to make the choice a little more difficult.  The aim is to make it as objective as humanly possible, and most committee members play it that way.

[Gregory Sager]

Agree if there was ever a year to differentiate COY vs. Coach X who wins the CCIW  this is the year to do it.  Baines and Slyder have brought programs that earlier would have been viewed as "out of the picture", into contention.

Massey has Wheaton a mere 3 point home dog tomorrow night jaybird and Naperick . . . sounds a little thin doesn't it?!

At first glance, it does seem a bit thin.  But the last 3 weeks in CCIW play has provided a lot of surprises.  And I believe the 'Jays win over Wheaton in Elmhurst was by single digits.  You just never know. 

I would be happy with a 1 point win for the Bluejays.

Massey Ratings numbers are off at the moment, however slightly, regarding Wheaton. Ken Massey erroneously recorded Wednesday night's game as a 63-48 Wheaton win, duplicating the score in the women's game that was played at King Arena. I've informed him via email that the outcome was actually a 71-68 North Park win, but who knows when he'll get around to making that correction. I gotta suspect that he's a very busy man.

On the issue of "regional overload" the national committee is instructed to look at the numbers and as one Pool C selection is made the next institution from that region is added to the eight on the board.  If their numbers warrant being the next selection they are to be selected.  Sometimes it is clear and sometimes the various numbers intertwine to make the choice a little more difficult.  The aim is to make it as objective as humanly possible, and most committee members play it that way.

I know that that's the stated ideal, and I hope that your confidence in the committee is validated. It just strikes me (and WUH, too, I think) that a sort of Central Region Fatigue could set in at some point in the Pool C selection process, especially since there is some leeway given in how the primary-criteria data can be interpreted.

[sac]

One big issue I see with this region is now seeding.   You won't always get the deserved hosting opportunities you once had when the wiac was in the west. 

[WUPHF]

I know that that's the stated ideal, and I hope that your confidence in the committee is validated. It just strikes me (and WUH, too, I think) that a sort of Central Region Fatigue could set in at some point in the Pool C selection process, especially since there is some leeway given in how the primary-criteria data can be interpreted.

I am concerned that we will be discussing Central Region fatigue again in March.  Obviously, the potential for a qualified team being left on the table was there before, but, well, let's wait and see.

[Pat Coleman]

Massey Ratings numbers are off at the moment, however slightly, regarding Wheaton. Ken Massey erroneously recorded Wednesday night's game as a 63-48 Wheaton win, duplicating the score in the women's game that was played at King Arena. I've informed him via email that the outcome was actually a 71-68 North Park win, but who knows when he'll get around to making that correction. I gotta suspect that he's a very busy man.

Guess that means he is still scraping our site for scores -- we had the incorrect score posted for about 10 hours. Wish your alma mater would report scores -- that would eliminate the possibility of me or Gordon or Dave mistyping.

Plus, heck, the SIDs already know what the score is. We have to go look it up first ...

[Gregory Sager]

Massey Ratings numbers are off at the moment, however slightly, regarding Wheaton. Ken Massey erroneously recorded Wednesday night's game as a 63-48 Wheaton win, duplicating the score in the women's game that was played at King Arena. I've informed him via email that the outcome was actually a 71-68 North Park win, but who knows when he'll get around to making that correction. I gotta suspect that he's a very busy man.

Guess that means he is still scraping our site for scores -- we had the incorrect score posted for about 10 hours. Wish your alma mater would report scores -- that would eliminate the possibility of me or Gordon or Dave mistyping.

I'll make a note to mention it to Kevin Shepke.

[tjcummingsfan]

This is clearly on a different level of importance from Pat's issue, but if you're talking to Kevin anyway, can you suggest a different word for a vikings win besides "upends".  I swear it's like 75% of the time he uses that word on the website.  Sorry, just a totally unreasonable little annoyance that popped up again.

[iwu70]

As to earlier comments about CCIW softball, I actually love CCIW softball, watch lots of games when in Btown in the late Spring.  IWU has been strong for a number of years and there are many good CCIW and regional teams.  It's exciting to watch and the level of play is high.  It's more exciting than watching CCIW baseball.

Big games tonight -- looking forward to the great match-up at The Shirk.  Go TITANS!

IWU70