MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[DFLDWarriorsCCIW]

Congrats to the 3 CCIW squads in the last 32.  Based on the results so far, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that if the Cardinals had been on the good side of the bubble that NCC might have snagged a first round win too.  With the right matchup, and the way they were playing, NP could have taken somebody down also.  The better the quality of teams all the way up and down the CCIW, the better prepared and more competitive our teams will be in the NCAA tournament.  I am SOOOO glad that the committee takes into account the SOS and realizes the rigors of January and February may blemish the overall records of the conference representatives, but certainly not their abilities to compete for the National Championship.  If this trend continues, wouldn't be in the best interest of (let's pick one without picking on them) St. Norbert to make a more challenging non-conference schedule?  The 2nd toughest opponent outside of their weak conference that they faced this year finished 5th in the CCIW and I would comfortably have put my $$ on Juwan and his teammates if that game were in February instead of November.  Other than John Carroll at home (an "L") in their holiday tournament, who did they play?  I assume it is geography and funding that creates all of these "Paper Tigers" come March every year.  Des Peres isn't that far away and I know the last few years they've had one game against top flight CCIW or WIAC competition (Whitewater and/or Augie) which each time netted an "L".  Wouldn't it behoove them to get at least another couple of teams from the  CCIW/WIAC or Wash U/U of Chicago every year?  This will be really fun if the CCIW gets 3 in the sweet 16.

[Pat Coleman]

The Midwest Conference has 18 conference games and conference rules limit schools to scheduling 23 games, so the St. Norbert schedule is a little bit locked in.

St. Norbert isn't a paper tiger. They're a tiger surrounded by lots of other tigers. In New York or New England they'd probably make the round of eight because there are so many other poor conferences around them. But in this region, yeah, they lost to a Final Four IWU team at IWU last year. Does that mean they weren't a worthy tournament team? This year they nearly handed Elmhurst a loss and heck, Elmhurst lost six games to CCIW opponents.

Those two St. Norbert teams fit right into the CCIW pecking order. They should have won last night, but they aren't out of place in the tournament.

[Greek Tragedy]

Wow, DFLD, you're really tooting the CCIW horn aren't you? NCC might have won had they made the tourney,  even though you have no idea who they would play and even going as far as to say North Park could've taken someone down. Yeah, they had a nice 7-game stretch at the end of the season. Prior to that they were winless in the CCIW. Yeah, anyone can beat anyone in the tourney.

St. Norbert is a solid squad, they just really blew it last night.

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah, anyone can beat anyone in the tourney.

This year more than most.

[DFLDWarriorsCCIW]

No offense Greek, just a little conference pride.  Love Coach G.  In fact, I think he ends up getting tapped for a DI job sooner than later.  The man is a great leader and terrific coach.  Thought he might even have even ended up back at UWGB.

But if you're being honest,...what do you think SNC's record would have been in the CCIW this year and would it have been enough to get a Pool C?  For that matter, what do you think Elmhurst or NCC's record would have been in those 18 conference games in the MWC.  Would they have had enough to win the MWC?

Didn't mean to single them out, should have targeted others, but was trying to make the point regarding geography and scheduling. I  understand the admonishment and accept it.

[Naperick]

Biggest win in 14 years for Elmhurst last night!  A credit to the entire conference for helping the Bluejays be "battle tested" for a three overtime game.  I hope they have something left tonight.

[Pat Coleman]

But if you're being honest,...what do you think SNC's record would have been in the CCIW this year and would it have been enough to get a Pool C? 

Honestly, if you're talking about Pool C vs. Pool C, that's one thing. But we're not -- we're talking about a team that got an automatic bid. In every NCAA Tournament in basically any team sport at any team level there are automatic bids, and those teams earned their place in the tourney via whatever mechanism the conference wants to use to qualify them.

You're talking quite a bit of trash about a team that would have eliminated Elmhurst last night if the overtime layup had gotten off about .3 seconds earlier.

Pretty sure the teams I saw last night were pretty equivalent.

[veterancciwfan]

Useless trivia dept: In 2nd round D3 tourney games, WI-SP is 7-4 and IWU is 14-5.

[Gregory Sager]

St. Norbert has been a successful program for years now.  Maybe the best private D3 in the state over the last five years.  What is their formula?

It's a school that is very supportive of athletics in a league in which that doesn't seem to be the case on a lot of campuses, at least by our (CCIW) standards. As you may or may not know, Mark, the Midwest Conference imposes supplemental limitations upon its athletic programs above and beyond those required by NCAA D3 (shorter seasons, no off-campus recruiting, etc.). Despite the fact that there's a lot of similiarity between the academic and financial profiles of CCIW and MWC schools, the philosophies of the leagues are different, and that's reflected not only in the MWC's supplemental limitations but also in terms of financial emphasis; I'm willing to bet that MWC schools don't invest nearly as much into athletics-based capital improvements as do their CCIW peers.

All of this is reflected on the field (or court) of play. The CCIW is annually one of the most successful leagues in D3 across a wide variety of sports; the MWC does not enjoy much national success at all, certainly not as compared to the CCIW. That's neither a good thing nor a bad thing, incidentally. Leagues, just like schools, have their own philosophies, missions, and emphases, and there's no right or wrong here. The MWC schools fit together, and the CCIW schools fit together.

St. Norbert's a little more dynamic in terms of how it operates athletics than are its MWC peers, and that's reflected on the scoreboard. SNC is always at or near the top of the league's all-sports standings for both men and women, in spite of the fact that the school is penalized for being the only MWC school that doesn't offer men's or women's swimming.

Given that fact, and the fact that the other D3 private-school league besides the CCIW that has Wisconsin-based schools, the NACC, is nowhere near a top-tier D3 league athletically, it's easy to see why St. Norbert sort of sticks out like a sore thumb. Part of that comparatively aggressive approach to athletics by SNC, in a sense specific to men's basketball, was the school's hiring of Gary Grzesk nine years ago to be the head coach of the Green Knights. He had been very successful in his prior job, a three-year stint as Lakeland's head coach. I think that he's one of the top coaches in this entire region. While I'm more than happy that Tom Slyder (who was a great hire by NPU) is the man who's helming the Vikings, if he ever left I'd be very enthusiastic about North Park hiring Grzesk if he ever decided to move south of the cheddar curtain to head our alma mater's men's basketball program.

Congrats to the 3 CCIW squads in the last 32.  Based on the results so far, I don't think it would be a stretch to say that if the Cardinals had been on the good side of the bubble that NCC might have snagged a first round win too.  With the right matchup, and the way they were playing, NP could have taken somebody down also.

[snip]

The 2nd toughest opponent outside of their weak conference that they faced this year finished 5th in the CCIW and I would comfortably have put my $$ on Juwan and his teammates if that game were in February instead of November.

St. Norbert defeated North Park by 11 on November 18 up at Schuldes. It was the first game of the season for NPU and the second for SNC. The Vikings certainly managed to hang around with the Green Knights; it was a seven-point game with two minutes and change remaining when Jordan Robinson picked up his fifth foul, effectively dooming NPU's chances.

But what makes this significant are the facts that: a) it was the first game in the collegiate careers of two key NPU starters, Jordan Robinson and Colin Lake (they were the two leading scorers for the Vikings in that game, with 20 and 17, respectively*); and b) Juwan Henry didn't play in that game. He was forced to sit out NPU's opener as a result of drawing a Class A technical in the final game of the 2013-14 season.

The SNC folks, including Gary Grzesk, were very complimentary of the Vikings afterwards and talked about what a tough time the Green Knights had had with NPU. And, again, that was an NPU squad that was without the services of Juwan Henry.

Wow, DFLD, you're really tooting the CCIW horn aren't you? NCC might have won had they made the tourney,  even though you have no idea who they would play and even going as far as to say North Park could've taken someone down. Yeah, they had a nice 7-game stretch at the end of the season. Prior to that they were winless in the CCIW.

Tom, NPU beat two teams that will be playing tonight, Augustana and Illinois Wesleyan. The Vikings also beat North Central, which was almost certainly one of the Pool C candidates left on the table last Monday, and I've already mentioned the close game that they played against St. Norbert back in November. Given some of the teams that represent the weaker leagues in D3, I have no doubt that DFLD is correct when he said that NPU could've taken somebody down last night. Check out these current Massey rankings:

  61. North Park
  62. Westfield State
  72. St. Vincent
  73. Texas Lutheran
  84. Baruch
  87. Keene State
  96. Endicott
102. Oswego State
124. Concordia (WI)
136. Misericordia
139. Northwestern
148. Russell Sage
178. Medaille
181. Neumann
186. LaGrange
192. Regis
203. Spalding
218. Colby-Sawyer
219. Hendrix
281. Cobleskill State

That's nineteen tourney teams that are rated below North Park by Massey. A few of them performed credibly last night, and one of them (Northwestern) actually pulled off a major upset. Are you telling me that, contra Massey, NPU couldn't have beaten any of those nineteen teams?

St. Norbert is a solid squad, they just really blew it last night.

I don't think that the Green Knights "blew it" at all. I think that they played really well and were beaten in a triple-overtime affair by a team that is likewise very solid.

*To be fair, SNC also started a freshman, guard D.J. DeValk, in that 11/18/14 NPU @ SNC contest. It was his second collegiate game.

[Greek Tragedy]

Greg,

You're taking my comments out of context. When I say "they needed to win," and "they blew," I'm not talking about who was favored, how close the teams matched up etc. I referring to the fact that they finally had the chance to make a statement, playing at home and then seeing St. Thomas lose.

And to use Massey to prove to me that NP had a reasonable shot to take someone down last night proves nothing. #139 Northwestern topped Whitewater.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg,

You're taking my comments out of context. When I say "they needed to win," and "they blew," I'm not talking about who was favored, how close the teams matched up etc. I referring to the fact that they finally had the chance to make a statement, playing at home and then seeing St. Thomas lose.

The term "blew it" connotes that the Green Knights controlled the outcome but failed to seal the deal. My point is that they didn't necessarily control the outcome, because the two teams were evenly matched.

And to use Massey to prove to me that NP had a reasonable shot to take someone down last night proves nothing. #139 Northwestern topped Whitewater.

Come on, Tom. Nineteen teams rated below NPU -- nineteen -- and you're still not willing to admit that NPU could've beaten at least one of them?

[augiefan]

Time to play some big time hoops. Let's get all 3 CCIW teams to the Sweet 16..

[Gregory Sager]

This UWSP play-by-play guy is terrific. I'm very impressed.

[iwu70]

Titans down one at the half @SP.

[John Gleich]

This UWSP play-by-play guy is terrific. I'm very impressed.

Yep, he's a real gem. Makes it a pleasure to listen to games.

Heck of a last 6 minutes by IWU. Point is in trouble if they have to keep doubling the post and can't get to shooters... IWU's big guys are finding the open man.