MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Worthy of taking note: http://www.d3hoops.com/playoffs/men/2015/sectional-hosts-announced?t=1425838998807&t=1425839002455

[Pat Coleman]

But what makes this significant are the facts that: a) it was the first game in the collegiate careers of two key NPU starters, Jordan Robinson and Colin Lake (they were the two leading scorers for the Vikings in that game, with 20 and 17, respectively*); and b) Juwan Henry didn't play in that game. He was forced to sit out NPU's opener as a result of drawing a Class A technical in the final game of the 2013-14 season.

*To be fair, SNC also started a freshman, guard D.J. DeValk, in that 11/18/14 NPU @ SNC contest. It was his second collegiate game.

And further counterpoint is that St. Norbert had some experienced players returning, including a high-quality sixth man. But the Green Knights had started five seniors in 2013-14, so basically everyone was in a new role in November.

[GoPerry]

Something tells me that Point, DePauw and especially Northwestern(MN) aren't all that impressed with the CCIW right now . . . sure didn't play like they were intimidated.  Eagles played well for two nights and deserved to advance - hats off to them.

The success of the Pointers program would make it hard to be intimated by anyone, just like it would be hard for IWU to be intimidated . I think it's fair to say both programs respect each other a great deal. It wasn't an easy win. Winning doesn't mean we can't be impressed.

Yes.  With regard to UWSP, I would never infer that they would be intimidated by any team, CCIW or otherwise.  I was really responding to any notion that being from the CCIW (or the WIAC for that matter) somehow gives our teams a leg up on the competition or that other tournament teams are somehow "less than".  As last night demonstrated where almost all 3 CCIW reps went down, once the bids are out, the matchups set and the ball goes up, your conference affiliation won't score you hoops.  The conference record, quality wins, SOS#s all speak for themselves.  But all 62 teams did something with success to earn their spot (despite opinions as to whether some squads are more worthy than others) and thus deserve to be respected for that as opposed to questioned(after they've been eliminated) on whether they belonged in the first place. 

[iwu70]

GoPerry, agreed.

Seems to me SP and Augie have a pretty good chance now of getting to the Final Four.  Was very impressed with Point, all along.  You gotta play well, and have a little luck to get to Salem.  I think Augie used up their luck on Saturday night.  Hope they play better at home this coming weekend.  Good luck to Augustana going forward.

Congrats again to Coach Rose, his coaching staff, and all the Titans on a fine season.  More good things to come next year, I'm sure.  Thanks, too, to all the staff around The Shirk who make possible such a wonderful venue for D3 hoops. 

On to baseball and softball . . . and Lacrosse. 

IWU70

[Greek Tragedy]

According to Massey, #7 Augustana has #3 St. Olaf,  #8 Marietta and #9 Mount Union.

[Mr. Ypsi]

According to Massey, #7 Augustana has #3 St. Olaf,  #8 Marietta and #9 Mount Union.

Still FAR from 2009's infamous 'bracket of death', but pretty impressive.

[veterancciwfan]

Like Bob, always disappointed when IWU b'ball season is over. Regarding Northwestern and St. Thomas, from talking to some N'western fans at St. Thomas in the 2011 1st round games, there seems to be some genuine animosisty towards St.Thomas, a private school with a big enrollment and evidently a big endowment, and, as I recall, both a medical school and law school in neighboring Minneapolis. If I remember correctly, St. Thomas refuses to play Northwestern in regular season play and they did not meet in the 2010/11 season until the 1st round game (won by the Tommies). Don't know if the two teams have played each other since March 2011, but I imagine Northwestern fans are ecstatic with the twin facts of their team's success combined with #3 St. Thomas's dismal failure Friday night.

I'm with you Greg on the depth thing. You have changed my thinking. At the D3 level, I think most coaches would be wise to select their 8 most talented players and give them 95% of the 200 minutes. It's very rare when a D3 school has 8 players who are significantly better than good. Playing 2 days every week shouldn't be to taxing. However, depth is more important when playing on successive nights in D3 tourney play. Ask John Baines what his opinion is regarding depth or the lack of it.

[John Gleich]

Intimidation is a strange thing. When I played at Point, I can take only think of one game where "intimidation" could really be something that played a part. That was in the first NCAA game we played... We hosted Gustavus Adolphus after a first round bye after a 23-2 regular season (we were 24-3 after getting knocked off by Oshkosh, an elite 8 team, in the WIAC semi's).

We were playing at home, in our first NCAA game in front of a full house. And we were incredibly tight. They had played the previous Thursday and has won, so they had gotten out the jitters.

It was weird... I mean, we were used to big games in the WIAC. Packed gyms, big crowds, huge games. It simply came with the territory and was one of the huge draws of playing at Point. Even in a hostile gym, you feed off of the energy.

But that first NCAA game... It's different. Part of what you have to do is convince yourself that you belong. No matter how good you've been, there's always a question. I mean, we won the WIAC by two games and swept the second half of the round robin by double digits in every game. We blew Oshkosh out two weeks earlier, and they had made the Sweet 16 the year before. Gustavus Adolphus beat us by 13 at home.

But the mind is a curious thing. It creates doubts where reason says it should not exist.

A year later, we played a game on Thursday night against Benedictine and won handily. How ironic... We had to go to GAC on Saturday, at the most hostile crowd we'd ever seen, and we prevailed. For that have, we weren't intimidated, even though we had, seemingly, ever reason to be so.

Like I said, the mind is a curious thing.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Intimidation is a strange thing. When I played at Point, I can take only think of one game where "intimidation" could really be something that played a part. That was in the first NCAA game we played... We hosted Gustavus Adolphus after a first round bye after a 23-2 regular season (we were 24-3 after getting knocked off by Oshkosh, an elite 8 team, in the WIAC semi's).

We were playing at home, in our first NCAA game in front of a full house. And we were incredibly tight. They had played the previous Thursday and has won, so they had gotten out the jitters.

It was weird... I mean, we were used to big games in the WIAC. Packed gyms, big crowds, huge games. It simply came with the territory and was one of the huge draws of playing at Point. Even in a hostile gym, you feed off of the energy.

But that first NCAA game... It's different. Part of what you have to do is convince yourself that you belong. No matter how good you've been, there's always a question. I mean, we won the WIAC by two games and swept the second half of the round robin by double digits in every game. We blew Oshkosh out two weeks earlier, and they had made the Sweet 16 the year before. Gustavus Adolphus beat us by 13 at home.

But the mind is a curious thing. It creates doubts where reason says it should not exist.

A year later, we played a game on Thursday night against Benedictine and won handily. How ironic... We had to go to GAC on Saturday, at the most hostile crowd we'd ever seen, and we prevailed. For that have, we weren't intimidated, even though we had, seemingly, ever reason to be so.

Like I said, the mind is a curious thing.

And you've pointed out the bigger reason a 'bye' is a mixed blessing.  I doubt 'rust' is a factor, but the opponent already having had a tourney game (especially for those players who have never had one) can be (at least for some players) a huge factor.

[AO]

Like Bob, always disappointed when IWU b'ball season is over. Regarding Northwestern and St. Thomas, from talking to some N'western fans at St. Thomas in the 2011 1st round games, there seems to be some genuine animosisty towards St.Thomas, a private school with a big enrollment and evidently a big endowment, and, as I recall, both a medical school and law school in neighboring Minneapolis. If I remember correctly, St. Thomas refuses to play Northwestern in regular season play and they did not meet in the 2010/11 season until the 1st round game (won by the Tommies). Don't know if the two teams have played each other since March 2011, but I imagine Northwestern fans are ecstatic with the twin facts of their team's success combined with #3 St. Thomas's dismal failure Friday night.

I'm with you Greg on the depth thing. You have changed my thinking. At the D3 level, I think most coaches would be wise to select their 8 most talented players and give them 95% of the 200 minutes. It's very rare when a D3 school has 8 players who are significantly better than good. Playing 2 days every week shouldn't be to taxing. However, depth is more important when playing on successive nights in D3 tourney play. Ask John Baines what his opinion is regarding depth or the lack of it.

I don't think that's a majority Northwestern opinion of St. Thomas.  St. Thomas is largely out of sight/out of mind compared to a true rival college like Bethel.  If they have refused to schedule us, that would be a recent development.  They only have 3 non-conference games to schedule outside of whichever tourney they fly out to and I can hardly blame them for scheduling 3 WIACs.  Breaking in a brand new gym in 2011 and chanting at us "You're not worthy!" probably created this limited animosity moreso than any underlying feelings of jealousy about enrollment or endowment.  I'm sure St. John's fans are far more excited about the Tommies demise than we are.

[Gregory Sager]

But what makes this significant are the facts that: a) it was the first game in the collegiate careers of two key NPU starters, Jordan Robinson and Colin Lake (they were the two leading scorers for the Vikings in that game, with 20 and 17, respectively*); and b) Juwan Henry didn't play in that game. He was forced to sit out NPU's opener as a result of drawing a Class A technical in the final game of the 2013-14 season.

*To be fair, SNC also started a freshman, guard D.J. DeValk, in that 11/18/14 NPU @ SNC contest. It was his second collegiate game.

And further counterpoint is that St. Norbert had some experienced players returning, including a high-quality sixth man. But the Green Knights had started five seniors in 2013-14, so basically everyone was in a new role in November.

That cut both ways, though, Pat. In that NPU @ SNC game, the Vikings only had two players who'd played in as many as 20 games the year before. One of the NPU starters had started one game in 2013-14, and another had started four. Even Garrett Gatz, the most experienced player on the team, had only been a part-time starter in 2013-14.

[Gregory Sager]

Like Bob, always disappointed when IWU b'ball season is over. Regarding Northwestern and St. Thomas, from talking to some N'western fans at St. Thomas in the 2011 1st round games, there seems to be some genuine animosisty towards St.Thomas, a private school with a big enrollment and evidently a big endowment, and, as I recall, both a medical school and law school in neighboring Minneapolis. If I remember correctly, St. Thomas refuses to play Northwestern in regular season play and they did not meet in the 2010/11 season until the 1st round game (won by the Tommies). Don't know if the two teams have played each other since March 2011, but I imagine Northwestern fans are ecstatic with the twin facts of their team's success combined with #3 St. Thomas's dismal failure Friday night.

I think that the bigger dose of animosity towards St. Thomas comes from the Tommies' fellow MIAC members, not from UMAC members such as Northwestern. There seems to be a lot of resentment among UST's league rivals about the school size, deep pockets, and state-of-the-art facilities at St. Thomas. No doubt a lot of that has been transmuted into envy over the fact that UST is a national player in a wide variety of sports now, while the national-level accomplishments of the rest of the league in recent years has been much more modest.

I'm with you Greg on the depth thing. You have changed my thinking. At the D3 level, I think most coaches would be wise to select their 8 most talented players and give them 95% of the 200 minutes. It's very rare when a D3 school has 8 players who are significantly better than good.

It's really a matter of roster makeup and of playing style. It makes sense for Augustana to use a deep rotation, because Grey Giovanine's teams expend so much energy at the defensive end of the floor. And it makes sense for Illinois Wesleyan, at least in its current configuration, to use a deep rotation because there's so little difference in quality between the first five and the second five. There are certain advantages to depth: protection from foul trouble and injury, greater matchup flexibility, the ability to wear down an opponent either by playing up-tempo or by getting physical with them.

But you're right that, in most cases in D3, there's a significant dropoff in ability beyond the top seven or eight players. Most D3 championship teams in the past really didn't go beyond an eight-man rotation, and some of them have played as few as seven. If you've got a big dropoff in ability between your top seven or eight and everybody else on the roster, why would you shortchange your chances by sitting your studs more than they need to sit? UWSP looks like a strong contender for the Big Doorstop this year, and the Pointers only go seven deep. On Saturday against the Titans, Bob Semling cut it down even further and only used six players in his rotation.

Most of the teams remaining in the tournament use eight to ten players in the rotation. But there's a lot of specialization there, with several of the remaining 16 teams using backups that are assigned to only one particular position rather than filling in at two or three. Thus, there's a lot of guys who're appearing in every game, or most every game, but who are only averaging eight to twelve minutes.

Playing 2 days every week shouldn't be to taxing. However, depth is more important when playing on successive nights in D3 tourney play. Ask John Baines what his opinion is regarding depth or the lack of it.

Thing is, Elmhurst isn't a shallow team at all. Baines had nine players play double-digit minutes in that triple-overtime game on Friday, and Peyton Wyatt played eight minutes as well. The only three players who played what could be construed as an excessive number of minutes were Bluejays mainspring Kyle Wuest (47 minutes) and the two primary big men, Will Nixon (38 min) and Erik Crittenden (33 min). Wuest and Nixon both looked seriously worn down against Northwestern. But, again, Baines used nine players for double-digit minutes on Saturday, and backup big man Kenny Payonk played nine minutes. I think that the emotional stress of Friday night's game (which should not be casually dismissed) might've affected the Bluejays as much as the physical stress, especially since the 'jays trailed St. Norbert for most of Friday night's contest. I also don't think it helped that EC played the late game on Friday night.

[Pat Coleman]

But what makes this significant are the facts that: a) it was the first game in the collegiate careers of two key NPU starters, Jordan Robinson and Colin Lake (they were the two leading scorers for the Vikings in that game, with 20 and 17, respectively*); and b) Juwan Henry didn't play in that game. He was forced to sit out NPU's opener as a result of drawing a Class A technical in the final game of the 2013-14 season.

*To be fair, SNC also started a freshman, guard D.J. DeValk, in that 11/18/14 NPU @ SNC contest. It was his second collegiate game.

And further counterpoint is that St. Norbert had some experienced players returning, including a high-quality sixth man. But the Green Knights had started five seniors in 2013-14, so basically everyone was in a new role in November.

That cut both ways, though, Pat. In that NPU @ SNC game, the Vikings only had two players who'd played in as many as 20 games the year before. One of the NPU starters had started one game in 2013-14, and another had started four. Even Garrett Gatz, the most experienced player on the team, had only been a part-time starter in 2013-14.

Yes, it cut both ways. Or in this instance, I guess it cut all three ways, since I was responding to your post.

[Gregory Sager]

But what makes this significant are the facts that: a) it was the first game in the collegiate careers of two key NPU starters, Jordan Robinson and Colin Lake (they were the two leading scorers for the Vikings in that game, with 20 and 17, respectively*); and b) Juwan Henry didn't play in that game. He was forced to sit out NPU's opener as a result of drawing a Class A technical in the final game of the 2013-14 season.

*To be fair, SNC also started a freshman, guard D.J. DeValk, in that 11/18/14 NPU @ SNC contest. It was his second collegiate game.

And further counterpoint is that St. Norbert had some experienced players returning, including a high-quality sixth man. But the Green Knights had started five seniors in 2013-14, so basically everyone was in a new role in November.

That cut both ways, though, Pat. In that NPU @ SNC game, the Vikings only had two players who'd played in as many as 20 games the year before. One of the NPU starters had started one game in 2013-14, and another had started four. Even Garrett Gatz, the most experienced player on the team, had only been a part-time starter in 2013-14.

Yes, it cut both ways. Or in this instance, I guess it cut all three ways, since I was responding to your post.

LOL!

[mactitan]

I think I've finally gotten over the rash I got from wearing Blue and Gold last weekend. As a Titan living in Rock Island, the last couple of weekends have been bittersweet. It was great watching the CCIW tournament in my own back yard. It was very fun to see John Baines prowling the sideline. I have a lot of great memories of watching him as a player, and was very impressed with the way he carried himself as a coach. I hope he has continued success.

It was fun being an Augie fan last Saturday. The place was absolutely packed. Not an empty seat or spot along the railing. The DePauw contingent was small, but vocal. It was a great game. Hitting both ends of a one-and-one with the score tied was clutch. And I've never seen a game finish like that. The whole gym just stopped for a second when the ball got stuck in the rim. It seems like some on this board are down on Augie, as if they just got lucky winning. I feel like they played a tough opponent who had a very specific game plan and did it well. I love it when Augustana locks down on defense, and gets the ball up the floor. I was so excited as Augie won (that feels weird to type), but that happiness got dampened pretty quickly when I checked the IWU score. Pulling for another CCIW team in the Final Four. Should be another good weekend of basketball.

PS Anyone know why the Augie student section is across from the Augie bench? I would think it would be much more effective to have that student section on Augie's defensive end in the second half of games. It's a great student section, and they get pretty loud. I would think there would be an advantage to have that noise factor disrupting the opponent's offense in the second half.