MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

0 x 2 is still 0 LOL - and thank you.

As for Augustana 20 points better than Babson... no one who watched that game thought the point spread was indicative of the game. That was a good, closely fought game that just had a few minutes at the end where things derailed. Thus why point-differential (among other reasons) will never be used and is so hard to read into as a Top 25 voter.

[GoPerry]

0 x 2 is still 0 LOL - and thank you.

In that case, let's be generous and triple it!

[AO]

0 x 2 is still 0 LOL - and thank you.

As for Augustana 20 points better than Babson... no one who watched that game thought the point spread was indicative of the game. That was a good, closely fought game that just had a few minutes at the end where things derailed. Thus why point-differential (among other reasons) will never be used and is so hard to read into as a Top 25 voter.

They might not have be 20 points better if they played again, but if you're able to finish a game on the sort of run, I'd say there's a clear distinction between the teams.  I agree that a single game's point differential shouldn't be the determining factor for a top 25 voter comparing teams but in the bigger reality of judging the relative strength of a team, it's very useful.  I think it's hard to believe in upsets.  If a good team like Villanova or Iowa State loses we like to pretend that they weren't really that good in the first place.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

0 x 2 is still 0 LOL - and thank you.

In that case, let's be generous and triple it!

You are too kind... too kind a gentlemen. Thank you. I am honored. LOL

0 x 2 is still 0 LOL - and thank you.

As for Augustana 20 points better than Babson... no one who watched that game thought the point spread was indicative of the game. That was a good, closely fought game that just had a few minutes at the end where things derailed. Thus why point-differential (among other reasons) will never be used and is so hard to read into as a Top 25 voter.

They might not have be 20 points better if they played again, but if you're able to finish a game on the sort of run, I'd say there's a clear distinction between the teams.  I agree that a single game's point differential shouldn't be the determining factor for a top 25 voter comparing teams but in the bigger reality of judging the relative strength of a team, it's very useful.  I think it's hard to believe in upsets.  If a good team like Villanova or Iowa State loses we like to pretend that they weren't really that good in the first place.

There was one factor not being considered... Wickey for Babson had a horrible night. Couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, it seemed. If he even has an average night at best, that changes the complexion of the game and the Augustana defense. They honestly could forget him about halfway through the game because he was no longer a threat. He becomes another serious weapon in that game and now Augustana has three scoring threats to worry about. I don't think the Vikings did anything in particular to stop him... he was just cold. That also changes the end of the game where I think Babson ran out of fumes because they were just searching for options.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Only because I happen to be watching the Twitter feed and not because I care at all about prospect announcements (because, I really don't):

@NCCBasketball - Happy to announce the official commitment of 6'8 St. Charles East big man, Jack Bronec! #WeAreNC #d3h

[AndOne]

Only because I happen to be watching the Twitter feed and not because I care at all about prospect announcements (because, I really don't):

@NCCBasketball - Happy to announce the official commitment of 6'8 St. Charles East big man, Jack Bronec! #WeAreNC #d3h

A very good get for the NCC Cardinals, the 6'8" 215 pound Bronec centered the St. Charles East team this past season, and helped lead them to a 24-4 record. Jack began his HS career as a member of the freshman 'B' team, and progressed/developed into a varsity starter and key contributor. Further skill development and added strength will yet further that development at the college level.
In addition to North Central, he considered Illinois Wesleyan, Augustana, Carthage, Hope, NAIA institutions Roosevelt and Goshen, and D1 Patriot League member Holy Cross from which he had a full tuition offer.
Jack's addition to the Cardinal squad, and his progression, is viewed as an important factor in helping to fill the void created by the loss to graduation of Charlie Rosenberg and, especially, "Big" Jack Burchett in the middle.

[AndOne]

Bradley fired Geno Ford yesterday... I've been told Augustana's Grey Giovanine will be a leading candidate for the job.

Should "Stomper" Giovanine leave for Bradley or any other institution, at least 3 questions immediately arise:
1. Will his leaving result in the "decommittment" of any recruits who have already cast their lot with AC? 
2. Will long term aide Tom Jessee accompany him?
3. Who will be the leading candidates to replace him, and will Jessee be one of those considered?

[Greek Tragedy]

http://m.host.madison.com/sports/college/state-and-regional/college-basketball-uw-stevens-point-keeps-ncaa-division-iii-title/article_ddfbaff5-0ad9-5e37-b09a-45ccb6e22271.html?mobile_touch=true

The article is on Point winning the title, but the video at the top is an Augie-sided video.

[Gregory Sager]

Bob, you've made a couple of statements that are in a similar vein over the past ten days:

Moving forward, I believe we will see even more top-to-bottom strength and balance - this trend should continue.  All 8 programs are aggressively trying to win now

I believe the strength of the league, top to bottom, will be at an all-time high next season.  All 8 programs are really getting after it right now, and really trying to win.

... and I'm not sure that I agree with them. It's not that I necessarily disagree with your main premise, which is that the league is getting stronger. Where you and I part company is over the use of the word "now," which implies that there were programs in this league that weren't "aggressively trying to win" or "really getting after it" or "really trying to win" in the past. I don't think that that's ever been the case, at least in recent memory.

I think that we need to distinguish between effort and competence. I am firmly convinced that, at least in recent decades, all eight CCIW schools have wanted to field successful men's basketball programs and have made intentional moves to realize that wished-for success. The CCIW is noteworthy for being nationally successful, to varying degrees, across the spectrum of the various sports sponsored by the league and by D3. But men's basketball is the marquee sport of this league, even though it's not our most successful sport in terms of national hardware won (take a bow, Al Carius ). And, as the marquee sport, it's the sport in which everyone would like to have success -- and has honestly strived for it, to one degree or another.

Having said that, the difference between effort and competence, or between desire and results, is pretty stark, particularly for the programs that have lagged behind year after year. I'm thinking especially of North Park and Millikin, but, over the past few years, Elmhurst had been in that category, too. Part of the problem for those schools has been a lack of resources to make basketball results match basketball aspirations, but a larger part, I think, has been due to poor leadership in terms of locating, recruiting, and then retaining the right kinds of players (i.e., players who have CCIW ability and who are a good social and academic fit for the school in question). In other words, coaching has largely held back those programs.

To sum up, I don't think it's a matter of all eight schools now wanting to win at men's basketball, whereas before that wasn't the case. I think that, rather, it's a matter of each of the eight CCIW schools now having the right coach in place with the right vision and the energy to make that vision work. (I realize that Mark Scherer had had more success at Elmhurst than had any of his predecessors, and I'm certainly not indicting him, but it did seem as though things had gotten away from him towards the end of his tenure; there's no question that John Baines has been a big improvement over the latter-day version of Scherer in terms of how that program is being run on and off the court.) Matt Nadelhoffer is simply running the Millikin program much better than his predecessor had run it, and there's no question now that Tom Slyder has NPU on the upswing after it had been stuck in the mud for so long.

[Gregory Sager]

I find quite the opposite.  Good teams in good conferences have the advantage and have since we went to this SOS system in 2008.  The D3 committee's really started hammering home the SOS part of the process in 2012 (to my recollection at least), the CCIW has had 3 bids in each year since(the only conference to do that btw).  You really can't ask for more than that.  Four bids from one conference has only happened 2 or 3 times, twice from the NESCAC that doesn't play a round-robin.

The NESCAC plays a round-robin, sac. It doesn't play a double round-robin, however, which is our bone of contention with them.

Also, the NJAC and the WIAC have had four teams make the tournament in the past. But that was under the old tourney selection format, so, in terms of the current setup, you're right about the NESCAC being the only league that has gotten in four.

Otherwise, good comments about the difficulty of fourth-place teams really having a good case to make to the national selection committee.

[AndOne]

Greg-

Your stance regarding all the CCIW schools currently having the right staffs and visions in place might be forced to take a step or two left or right if Giovanine leaves Augustana. 

[Gregory Sager]

Even in one of the best conferences, you need to go better than 8-6. That's just not going to cut it.

All the talk about scheduling weaker ... how about just inviting D3 teams to your home tournament? That's a start.

I think North Central was on the table at the end but was a roadblock.

Bopol,

In the end it doesn't matter how you compare RRO for North Central vs. Springfield or anyone else -- at .667 winning percentage vs. D-III schools, they simply were not getting in without an automatic bid. So one more win (Millikin, perhaps), or scheduling someone else to open the season, might well have gotten them in the tournament. You've spent a lot of time breaking down something that I suspect the committee probably didn't even talk about because they didn't make this particular committee's basic baseline.

(emphasis mine)

Some points are so good that they're worth making twice, eh, Pat?

North Central's advocates Mark and bopol have yet to address the issue of the baffling choices Todd Raridon has made for opening-round opponents in the NCC Tipoff Tournament. This past season it was Trinity International, an NAIA team and therefore a wasted game in terms of Pool C qualifications. Last season it was Valor Christian College (formerly World Harvest Bible College), a USCAA school and thus just as useless in Pool C terms as was this year's opener against TIU. Two years ago, the Tipoff Tourney opener for the Cardinals was Illinois Tech, which was then beginning its transition into D3 and thus didn't count for Pool C purposes.

For the two seasons prior to that, NCC opened with a D3 regional foe, so nobody could fault Todd Raridon for that. But the year before, 2009-10, he opened with Oberlin in the Tipoff Tourney -- and at that time a game against Oberlin, a Great Lakes Region program, did not count towards Pool C's regional criteria. The year before that the Cards opened with a D3 regional foe (MacMurray), but then faced an NAIA opponent (Mount Vernon Nazarene) in the Tipoff Tourney title game the next night. And the previous year, the Cards played not one, but two non-D3 opponents in the Tipoff Tourney: the aforementioned World Harvest Bible College, and (then-NAIA) Lindenwood.

Most years Todd Raridon just throws away opening night in terms of Pool C criteria. I have no idea why. North Central's CCIW neighbors to the north never seem to have any trouble finding a D3 team to beat up schedule for the opening night of the Pfund -- and I doubt that Wheaton offers better pizza, nicer tourney t-shirts, or bigger trophies. If you're a coach who really cares about getting Pool C berths, you learn to schedule the way that the administrative powers that be in D3 want you to schedule ... and that means, first and foremost, scheduling D3 teams. Heck, it's even easier to set up a criteria-friendly schedule now, since regionality has been lessened in importance with regard to D3 scheduling. And if the reason why NCC ends up playing USCAA and NAIA schools in the Tipoff Tourney is because Todd Raridon has trouble finding D3 opponents who want to come to the airplane hangar to start their seasons, then perhaps it's time for him to scrap that tournament and use those two non-conference scheduling slots more strategically.

Every year non-MIAA people used to rag on Hope and Calvin in the MIAA room for wasting regular-season games on the likes of Cornerstone, Aquinas, Grace Bible, and other southwestern Michigan non-D3 opponents. Seems to me that NCC deserves some of the same sort of criticism.

Greg-

Your stance regarding all the CCIW schools currently having the right staffs and visions in place might be forced to take a step or two left or right if Giovanine leaves Augustana. 

Absolutely. The Augie posters in the CCIW football room have certainly been unsparing in their criticism of Augustana's previous football hire. So there's no guarantees that Augie will make the right choice if Giovanine moves on to Peoria.

[Pat Coleman]

Even in one of the best conferences, you need to go better than 8-6. That's just not going to cut it.

All the talk about scheduling weaker ... how about just inviting D3 teams to your home tournament? That's a start.

I think North Central was on the table at the end but was a roadblock.

Bopol,

In the end it doesn't matter how you compare RRO for North Central vs. Springfield or anyone else -- at .667 winning percentage vs. D-III schools, they simply were not getting in without an automatic bid. So one more win (Millikin, perhaps), or scheduling someone else to open the season, might well have gotten them in the tournament. You've spent a lot of time breaking down something that I suspect the committee probably didn't even talk about because they didn't make this particular committee's basic baseline.

(emphasis mine)

Some points are so good that they're worth making twice, eh, Pat?

Yes. There was evidence to suggest that Bopol wasn't comprehending, so I repeated.

[kiko]

Even in one of the best conferences, you need to go better than 8-6. That's just not going to cut it.

All the talk about scheduling weaker ... how about just inviting D3 teams to your home tournament? That's a start.

I think North Central was on the table at the end but was a roadblock.

Bopol,

In the end it doesn't matter how you compare RRO for North Central vs. Springfield or anyone else -- at .667 winning percentage vs. D-III schools, they simply were not getting in without an automatic bid. So one more win (Millikin, perhaps), or scheduling someone else to open the season, might well have gotten them in the tournament. You've spent a lot of time breaking down something that I suspect the committee probably didn't even talk about because they didn't make this particular committee's basic baseline.

(emphasis mine)

Some points are so good that they're worth making twice, eh, Pat?

North Central's advocates Mark and bopol have yet to address the issue of the baffling choices Todd Raridon has made for opening-round opponents in the NCC Tipoff Tournament. This past season it was Trinity International, an NAIA team and therefore a wasted game in terms of Pool C qualifications. Last season it was Valor Christian College (formerly World Harvest Bible College), a USCAA school and thus just as useless in Pool C terms as was this year's opener against TIU. Two years ago, the Tipoff Tourney opener for the Cardinals was Illinois Tech, which was then beginning its transition into D3 and thus didn't count for Pool C purposes.

For the two seasons prior to that, NCC opened with a D3 regional foe, so nobody could fault Todd Raridon for that. But the year before, 2009-10, he opened with Oberlin in the Tipoff Tourney -- and at that time a game against Oberlin, a Great Lakes Region program, did not count towards Pool C's regional criteria. The year before that the Cards opened with a D3 regional foe (MacMurray), but then faced an NAIA opponent (Mount Vernon Nazarene) in the Tipoff Tourney title game the next night. And the previous year, the Cards played not one, but two non-D3 opponents in the Tipoff Tourney: the aforementioned World Harvest Bible College, and (then-NAIA) Lindenwood.

Most years Todd Raridon just throws away opening night in terms of Pool C criteria. I have no idea why. North Central's CCIW neighbors to the north never seem to have any trouble finding a D3 team to beat up schedule for the opening night of the Pfund -- and I doubt that Wheaton offers better pizza, nicer tourney t-shirts, or bigger trophies. If you're a coach who really cares about getting Pool C berths, you learn to schedule the way that the administrative powers that be in D3 want you to schedule ... and that means, first and foremost, scheduling D3 teams. Heck, it's even easier to set up a criteria-friendly schedule now, since regionality has been lessened in importance with regard to D3 scheduling. And if the reason why NCC ends up playing USCAA and NAIA schools in the Tipoff Tourney is because Todd Raridon has trouble finding D3 opponents who want to come to the airplane hangar to start their seasons, then perhaps it's time for him to scrap that tournament and use those two non-conference scheduling slots more strategically.

Every year non-MIAA people used to rag on Hope and Calvin in the MIAA room for wasting regular-season games on the likes of Cornerstone, Aquinas, Grace Bible, and other southwestern Michigan non-D3 opponents. Seems to me that NCC deserves some of the same sort of criticism.

Greg-

Your stance regarding all the CCIW schools currently having the right staffs and visions in place might be forced to take a step or two left or right if Giovanine leaves Augustana. 

Absolutely. The Augie posters in the CCIW football room have certainly been unsparing in their criticism of Augustana's previous football hire. So there's no guarantees that Augie will make the right choice if Giovanine moves on to Peoria.

My affinities are well-documented as leaning toward candy-cane running shorts and aircraft storage areas.  And I don't disagree with any of the above.

We can gnash our teeth at the selections the D3 tournament committee made this year, but:

(1) North Central only lost one non-conference game this year, and it was to an elite team.  Their omission had little to do with their scheduling choices, beyond the fact that .666 could have been .692 had they simply played/beat someone other than Trinity or Penn State York.  The Sons of Warden didn't need to play good teams from traditionally weaker D3 conferences.  They needed to play D3 teams, period.

Now, .692 is sort of iffy from a pedigree standpoint, which leads to...

(2) If you want to make the tournament, you need to finish better than 8-6 in your conference.  Others have pointed out how disastrous the Millikin and/or North Park losses were.  If you're going to drop four games to teams above you in the conference standings, you simply cannot afford to lose games against teams below you.

Oh, and while I'm on my soapbox:

(3) This year's events once again demonstrate that, unless you pull a Pool A rabbit out of your hat, conference tournaments hurt you more than they help you come tournament time.  Under the current format, North Central's D3 winning percentage dropped from .695 to .666 because they dropped their SF round game.  Even if they had beaten Augie, the net result would have been regressive.  (And, even if the poobahs-that-be recast this as an eight-team tournament, the best a Pool C hopeful could aspire to is a 2-1 mark, which would likely be regressive for anyone who is a realistic Pool C candidate.

---

The Cardinals were undoubtedly one of the top 62 teams in D3 this year from my perspective.  But that's not who goes to the tournament, as we know, and a combination of poor scheduling decisions and dagger-like losses to second-division finishers are what kept the Cardinals home come tourney time.

[Greek Tragedy]

I've always felt getting swept by Elmhurst kept them out. Get a win there and with their SOS already superior,  they jump Elmhurst in the regional rankings. Getting swept always kept them behind Elmhurst.