MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[CCIW >]

Even in one of the best conferences, you need to go better than 8-6. That's just not going to cut it.

All the talk about scheduling weaker ... how about just inviting D3 teams to your home tournament? That's a start.

I think North Central was on the table at the end but was a roadblock.

Bopol,

In the end it doesn't matter how you compare RRO for North Central vs. Springfield or anyone else -- at .667 winning percentage vs. D-III schools, they simply were not getting in without an automatic bid. So one more win (Millikin, perhaps), or scheduling someone else to open the season, might well have gotten them in the tournament. You've spent a lot of time breaking down something that I suspect the committee probably didn't even talk about because they didn't make this particular committee's basic baseline.

(emphasis mine)

Some points are so good that they're worth making twice, eh, Pat?

North Central's advocates Mark and bopol have yet to address the issue of the baffling choices Todd Raridon has made for opening-round opponents in the NCC Tipoff Tournament. This past season it was Trinity International, an NAIA team and therefore a wasted game in terms of Pool C qualifications. Last season it was Valor Christian College (formerly World Harvest Bible College), a USCAA school and thus just as useless in Pool C terms as was this year's opener against TIU. Two years ago, the Tipoff Tourney opener for the Cardinals was Illinois Tech, which was then beginning its transition into D3 and thus didn't count for Pool C purposes.

For the two seasons prior to that, NCC opened with a D3 regional foe, so nobody could fault Todd Raridon for that. But the year before, 2009-10, he opened with Oberlin in the Tipoff Tourney -- and at that time a game against Oberlin, a Great Lakes Region program, did not count towards Pool C's regional criteria. The year before that the Cards opened with a D3 regional foe (MacMurray), but then faced an NAIA opponent (Mount Vernon Nazarene) in the Tipoff Tourney title game the next night. And the previous year, the Cards played not one, but two non-D3 opponents in the Tipoff Tourney: the aforementioned World Harvest Bible College, and (then-NAIA) Lindenwood.

Most years Todd Raridon just throws away opening night in terms of Pool C criteria. I have no idea why. North Central's CCIW neighbors to the north never seem to have any trouble finding a D3 team to beat up schedule for the opening night of the Pfund -- and I doubt that Wheaton offers better pizza, nicer tourney t-shirts, or bigger trophies. If you're a coach who really cares about getting Pool C berths, you learn to schedule the way that the administrative powers that be in D3 want you to schedule ... and that means, first and foremost, scheduling D3 teams. Heck, it's even easier to set up a criteria-friendly schedule now, since regionality has been lessened in importance with regard to D3 scheduling. And if the reason why NCC ends up playing USCAA and NAIA schools in the Tipoff Tourney is because Todd Raridon has trouble finding D3 opponents who want to come to the airplane hangar to start their seasons, then perhaps it's time for him to scrap that tournament and use those two non-conference scheduling slots more strategically.

Every year non-MIAA people used to rag on Hope and Calvin in the MIAA room for wasting regular-season games on the likes of Cornerstone, Aquinas, Grace Bible, and other southwestern Michigan non-D3 opponents. Seems to me that NCC deserves some of the same sort of criticism.

Greg-

Your stance regarding all the CCIW schools currently having the right staffs and visions in place might be forced to take a step or two left or right if Giovanine leaves Augustana. 

Absolutely. The Augie posters in the CCIW football room have certainly been unsparing in their criticism of Augustana's previous football hire. So there's no guarantees that Augie will make the right choice if Giovanine moves on to Peoria.

If you want to talk about the Tip-Off Tourney..
NCC scheduled UWW to be in that tourney and less than a month prior to the game, UWW coaches declined to play NCC.. They didn't want to play NCC in the second game of the year (Assuming both teams advanced to the final) for whatever reason and made NCC change the setup of the tourney to make it a round robin rather than a win-and-advance setting.  So don't blame Todd for not scheduling an important game to start the year... He brought in the best team possible basically, they just refused to compete (Should have counted as a win for NCC, in my opinion).

[badgerwarhawk]

Even in one of the best conferences, you need to go better than 8-6. That's just not going to cut it.

All the talk about scheduling weaker ... how about just inviting D3 teams to your home tournament? That's a start.

I think North Central was on the table at the end but was a roadblock.

Bopol,

In the end it doesn't matter how you compare RRO for North Central vs. Springfield or anyone else -- at .667 winning percentage vs. D-III schools, they simply were not getting in without an automatic bid. So one more win (Millikin, perhaps), or scheduling someone else to open the season, might well have gotten them in the tournament. You've spent a lot of time breaking down something that I suspect the committee probably didn't even talk about because they didn't make this particular committee's basic baseline.

(emphasis mine)

Some points are so good that they're worth making twice, eh, Pat?

North Central's advocates Mark and bopol have yet to address the issue of the baffling choices Todd Raridon has made for opening-round opponents in the NCC Tipoff Tournament. This past season it was Trinity International, an NAIA team and therefore a wasted game in terms of Pool C qualifications. Last season it was Valor Christian College (formerly World Harvest Bible College), a USCAA school and thus just as useless in Pool C terms as was this year's opener against TIU. Two years ago, the Tipoff Tourney opener for the Cardinals was Illinois Tech, which was then beginning its transition into D3 and thus didn't count for Pool C purposes.

For the two seasons prior to that, NCC opened with a D3 regional foe, so nobody could fault Todd Raridon for that. But the year before, 2009-10, he opened with Oberlin in the Tipoff Tourney -- and at that time a game against Oberlin, a Great Lakes Region program, did not count towards Pool C's regional criteria. The year before that the Cards opened with a D3 regional foe (MacMurray), but then faced an NAIA opponent (Mount Vernon Nazarene) in the Tipoff Tourney title game the next night. And the previous year, the Cards played not one, but two non-D3 opponents in the Tipoff Tourney: the aforementioned World Harvest Bible College, and (then-NAIA) Lindenwood.

Most years Todd Raridon just throws away opening night in terms of Pool C criteria. I have no idea why. North Central's CCIW neighbors to the north never seem to have any trouble finding a D3 team to beat up schedule for the opening night of the Pfund -- and I doubt that Wheaton offers better pizza, nicer tourney t-shirts, or bigger trophies. If you're a coach who really cares about getting Pool C berths, you learn to schedule the way that the administrative powers that be in D3 want you to schedule ... and that means, first and foremost, scheduling D3 teams. Heck, it's even easier to set up a criteria-friendly schedule now, since regionality has been lessened in importance with regard to D3 scheduling. And if the reason why NCC ends up playing USCAA and NAIA schools in the Tipoff Tourney is because Todd Raridon has trouble finding D3 opponents who want to come to the airplane hangar to start their seasons, then perhaps it's time for him to scrap that tournament and use those two non-conference scheduling slots more strategically.

Every year non-MIAA people used to rag on Hope and Calvin in the MIAA room for wasting regular-season games on the likes of Cornerstone, Aquinas, Grace Bible, and other southwestern Michigan non-D3 opponents. Seems to me that NCC deserves some of the same sort of criticism.

Greg-

Your stance regarding all the CCIW schools currently having the right staffs and visions in place might be forced to take a step or two left or right if Giovanine leaves Augustana. 

Absolutely. The Augie posters in the CCIW football room have certainly been unsparing in their criticism of Augustana's previous football hire. So there's no guarantees that Augie will make the right choice if Giovanine moves on to Peoria.

If you want to talk about the Tip-Off Tourney..
NCC scheduled UWW to be in that tourney and less than a month prior to the game, UWW coaches declined to play NCC.. They didn't want to play NCC in the second game of the year (Assuming both teams advanced to the final) for whatever reason and made NCC change the setup of the tourney to make it a round robin rather than a win-and-advance setting.  So don't blame Todd for not scheduling an important game to start the year... He brought in the best team possible basically, they just refused to compete (Should have counted as a win for NCC, in my opinion).

What in God's name are you talking about.  You've got it completely backwards.  We wanted to play NCC and when we signed the contract to play in their tournament it was with the understanding that we would be playing NCC.   Unfortunately the contract didn't specify who we would be playing but the verbal understanding between the coaches was that we would play NCC in the second game.  We didn't know that we wouldn't be playing NCC until a few days prior to the tournament when we were sent film of Trinity International University instead.  It was NCC who made the change.  We didn't make them change the format either.  I'm not sure where you've gotten your information but mine comes straight from the horse's mouth.   

[Pat Coleman]

Not to get into a he-said/he-said, but the UWW website backed up this interpretation. They listed UWW vs. North Central as a head-to-head game at that event before the season started. The disconnect between UWW's website and North Central's "TBA" listing sparked some discussion on this board.

Could certainly have been a misunderstanding in the scheduling, but if UWW coaches insisted on not playing North Central, I doubt they would have told UWW sports information to list the head-to-head game on the schedule.

[mwunder]

(Should have counted as a win for NCC, in my opinion).

So you want NCC to get credit for a game that was never played?  THAT is a stretch.

[Titan Q]

As for Augustana 20 points better than Babson... no one who watched that game thought the point spread was indicative of the game. That was a good, closely fought game that just had a few minutes at the end where things derailed.

I don't think this accurately describes how that game played out, Dave.  Some scores from the game...

* 12:09 1st: Augustana 16 Babson 5
* Half: Augustana 32 Babson 19
* 18:09 2nd: Augustana 34 Babson 21
* 6:42 2nd: Babson 47-46
* Final: Augustana: 68 Babson 47

Babson had a great 11+ minutes in the 2nd half where they outscored Augie 26-12.  But:

* Augustana led for 39 minutes, Babson led by 1. 
* Babson was down 2 baskets or more the final 4:51.
* In the 2nd half, Babson was only within 4 points of Augie (or had a lead) for a total of 5:15 - 10:52 to 5:37.
* Augustana had a lead of 7+ points for 21 minutes in the game...including 11 minutes in the 2nd half.

I don't think 20 points is indicative of the way the game played out, but it also wasn't a really close game overall. 

http://www.athletics.augustana.edu/custompages/Men's%20Basketball%20Stats/2014-15mbbstats/15mbb31.htm

[Greek Tragedy]

Whitewater had already scheduled a non-D3 game vs Cardinal Stritch, a preseason Top 5 NAIA team. Why would they want to avoid a D3 opponent and "force NCC" to change their tourney format and prefer to play another non-D3 team? That doesn't make sense. It also doesn't make sense for NCC to avoid playing a D3 opponent either.

[CCIW >]

Even in one of the best conferences, you need to go better than 8-6. That's just not going to cut it.

All the talk about scheduling weaker ... how about just inviting D3 teams to your home tournament? That's a start.

I think North Central was on the table at the end but was a roadblock.

Bopol,

In the end it doesn't matter how you compare RRO for North Central vs. Springfield or anyone else -- at .667 winning percentage vs. D-III schools, they simply were not getting in without an automatic bid. So one more win (Millikin, perhaps), or scheduling someone else to open the season, might well have gotten them in the tournament. You've spent a lot of time breaking down something that I suspect the committee probably didn't even talk about because they didn't make this particular committee's basic baseline.

(emphasis mine)

Some points are so good that they're worth making twice, eh, Pat?

North Central's advocates Mark and bopol have yet to address the issue of the baffling choices Todd Raridon has made for opening-round opponents in the NCC Tipoff Tournament. This past season it was Trinity International, an NAIA team and therefore a wasted game in terms of Pool C qualifications. Last season it was Valor Christian College (formerly World Harvest Bible College), a USCAA school and thus just as useless in Pool C terms as was this year's opener against TIU. Two years ago, the Tipoff Tourney opener for the Cardinals was Illinois Tech, which was then beginning its transition into D3 and thus didn't count for Pool C purposes.

For the two seasons prior to that, NCC opened with a D3 regional foe, so nobody could fault Todd Raridon for that. But the year before, 2009-10, he opened with Oberlin in the Tipoff Tourney -- and at that time a game against Oberlin, a Great Lakes Region program, did not count towards Pool C's regional criteria. The year before that the Cards opened with a D3 regional foe (MacMurray), but then faced an NAIA opponent (Mount Vernon Nazarene) in the Tipoff Tourney title game the next night. And the previous year, the Cards played not one, but two non-D3 opponents in the Tipoff Tourney: the aforementioned World Harvest Bible College, and (then-NAIA) Lindenwood.

Most years Todd Raridon just throws away opening night in terms of Pool C criteria. I have no idea why. North Central's CCIW neighbors to the north never seem to have any trouble finding a D3 team to beat up schedule for the opening night of the Pfund -- and I doubt that Wheaton offers better pizza, nicer tourney t-shirts, or bigger trophies. If you're a coach who really cares about getting Pool C berths, you learn to schedule the way that the administrative powers that be in D3 want you to schedule ... and that means, first and foremost, scheduling D3 teams. Heck, it's even easier to set up a criteria-friendly schedule now, since regionality has been lessened in importance with regard to D3 scheduling. And if the reason why NCC ends up playing USCAA and NAIA schools in the Tipoff Tourney is because Todd Raridon has trouble finding D3 opponents who want to come to the airplane hangar to start their seasons, then perhaps it's time for him to scrap that tournament and use those two non-conference scheduling slots more strategically.

Every year non-MIAA people used to rag on Hope and Calvin in the MIAA room for wasting regular-season games on the likes of Cornerstone, Aquinas, Grace Bible, and other southwestern Michigan non-D3 opponents. Seems to me that NCC deserves some of the same sort of criticism.

Greg-

Your stance regarding all the CCIW schools currently having the right staffs and visions in place might be forced to take a step or two left or right if Giovanine leaves Augustana. 

Absolutely. The Augie posters in the CCIW football room have certainly been unsparing in their criticism of Augustana's previous football hire. So there's no guarantees that Augie will make the right choice if Giovanine moves on to Peoria.

If you want to talk about the Tip-Off Tourney..
NCC scheduled UWW to be in that tourney and less than a month prior to the game, UWW coaches declined to play NCC.. They didn't want to play NCC in the second game of the year (Assuming both teams advanced to the final) for whatever reason and made NCC change the setup of the tourney to make it a round robin rather than a win-and-advance setting.  So don't blame Todd for not scheduling an important game to start the year... He brought in the best team possible basically, they just refused to compete (Should have counted as a win for NCC, in my opinion).

What in God's name are you talking about.  You've got it completely backwards.  We wanted to play NCC and when we signed the contract to play in their tournament it was with the understanding that we would be playing NCC.   Unfortunately the contract didn't specify who we would be playing but the verbal understanding between the coaches was that we would play NCC in the second game.  We didn't know that we wouldn't be playing NCC until a few days prior to the tournament when we were sent film of Trinity International University instead.  It was NCC who made the change.  We didn't make them change the format either.  I'm not sure where you've gotten your information but mine comes straight from the horse's mouth.   

My source is the NCC organization..
Our website listed TBA because the Tip Off tourney, that we have hosted for multiple years now, is a win-and-advance setting.. Thus, no way of knowing who your opponent would be on Day 2 (UWW implied but they would need to beat their opponent on Day 1)....
It has been a win-and-advance setting always in the past and most likely will always be that way. What would make the hosting team change the rules of its OWN tournament that it has been setting up for years?? We even advertised the tournament around campus as the "Championship Game" on Day 2... Not a second "round robin game" on day 2.

I believe your info is most certainty incorrect Warhawk. Think about which team had something to lose playing a tough opponent on Day 2 of the season... The highly ranked UWW or the unranked and picked to finish tied for 4th in the CCIW, NCC..................?

And in response to Mwunder:
In individual sports like wrestling or tennis or swimming, If you schedule to play a team who has a nationally ranked individual on their team and he decides to sit out or not compete (Like UWW in this case), for a reason not due to injury, than it is looked at as a win for the individual that was denied the opportunity to beat the ranked individual. This occurred once back in my college days many years ago. Our star player had a chance to play an individual that was ranked ahead of him in the national rankings, but on match day the individual decided to "rest" due to playing a match the day before (Both teams did I will add) and not risk playing our star player. The committee viewed it as a loss to the player who sat out and he fell in the rankings.  Obviously we are talking abot different sports here, butthats why I said "In my opinion." haha

[Greek Tragedy]

I doubt Whitewater,  the defending National Champs, were "afraid" of playing little old NCC from the CCIW in fear of losing to them, instead, wanting the easy way out and playing Trinity International,  knowing if they lost it wouldn't matter because they weren't an NCAA D3 opponent.

[sac]

Yes, UW-Whitewater who played on the road at Hope and then on the road at Augustana was afraid of North Central.  Yes, that's it

[Pat Coleman]

Even in one of the best conferences, you need to go better than 8-6. That's just not going to cut it.

All the talk about scheduling weaker ... how about just inviting D3 teams to your home tournament? That's a start.

I think North Central was on the table at the end but was a roadblock.

Bopol,

In the end it doesn't matter how you compare RRO for North Central vs. Springfield or anyone else -- at .667 winning percentage vs. D-III schools, they simply were not getting in without an automatic bid. So one more win (Millikin, perhaps), or scheduling someone else to open the season, might well have gotten them in the tournament. You've spent a lot of time breaking down something that I suspect the committee probably didn't even talk about because they didn't make this particular committee's basic baseline.

(emphasis mine)

Some points are so good that they're worth making twice, eh, Pat?

North Central's advocates Mark and bopol have yet to address the issue of the baffling choices Todd Raridon has made for opening-round opponents in the NCC Tipoff Tournament. This past season it was Trinity International, an NAIA team and therefore a wasted game in terms of Pool C qualifications. Last season it was Valor Christian College (formerly World Harvest Bible College), a USCAA school and thus just as useless in Pool C terms as was this year's opener against TIU. Two years ago, the Tipoff Tourney opener for the Cardinals was Illinois Tech, which was then beginning its transition into D3 and thus didn't count for Pool C purposes.

For the two seasons prior to that, NCC opened with a D3 regional foe, so nobody could fault Todd Raridon for that. But the year before, 2009-10, he opened with Oberlin in the Tipoff Tourney -- and at that time a game against Oberlin, a Great Lakes Region program, did not count towards Pool C's regional criteria. The year before that the Cards opened with a D3 regional foe (MacMurray), but then faced an NAIA opponent (Mount Vernon Nazarene) in the Tipoff Tourney title game the next night. And the previous year, the Cards played not one, but two non-D3 opponents in the Tipoff Tourney: the aforementioned World Harvest Bible College, and (then-NAIA) Lindenwood.

Most years Todd Raridon just throws away opening night in terms of Pool C criteria. I have no idea why. North Central's CCIW neighbors to the north never seem to have any trouble finding a D3 team to beat up schedule for the opening night of the Pfund -- and I doubt that Wheaton offers better pizza, nicer tourney t-shirts, or bigger trophies. If you're a coach who really cares about getting Pool C berths, you learn to schedule the way that the administrative powers that be in D3 want you to schedule ... and that means, first and foremost, scheduling D3 teams. Heck, it's even easier to set up a criteria-friendly schedule now, since regionality has been lessened in importance with regard to D3 scheduling. And if the reason why NCC ends up playing USCAA and NAIA schools in the Tipoff Tourney is because Todd Raridon has trouble finding D3 opponents who want to come to the airplane hangar to start their seasons, then perhaps it's time for him to scrap that tournament and use those two non-conference scheduling slots more strategically.

Every year non-MIAA people used to rag on Hope and Calvin in the MIAA room for wasting regular-season games on the likes of Cornerstone, Aquinas, Grace Bible, and other southwestern Michigan non-D3 opponents. Seems to me that NCC deserves some of the same sort of criticism.

Greg-

Your stance regarding all the CCIW schools currently having the right staffs and visions in place might be forced to take a step or two left or right if Giovanine leaves Augustana. 

Absolutely. The Augie posters in the CCIW football room have certainly been unsparing in their criticism of Augustana's previous football hire. So there's no guarantees that Augie will make the right choice if Giovanine moves on to Peoria.

If you want to talk about the Tip-Off Tourney..
NCC scheduled UWW to be in that tourney and less than a month prior to the game, UWW coaches declined to play NCC.. They didn't want to play NCC in the second game of the year (Assuming both teams advanced to the final) for whatever reason and made NCC change the setup of the tourney to make it a round robin rather than a win-and-advance setting.  So don't blame Todd for not scheduling an important game to start the year... He brought in the best team possible basically, they just refused to compete (Should have counted as a win for NCC, in my opinion).

What in God's name are you talking about.  You've got it completely backwards.  We wanted to play NCC and when we signed the contract to play in their tournament it was with the understanding that we would be playing NCC.   Unfortunately the contract didn't specify who we would be playing but the verbal understanding between the coaches was that we would play NCC in the second game.  We didn't know that we wouldn't be playing NCC until a few days prior to the tournament when we were sent film of Trinity International University instead.  It was NCC who made the change.  We didn't make them change the format either.  I'm not sure where you've gotten your information but mine comes straight from the horse's mouth.   

My source is the NCC organization..
Our website listed TBA because the Tip Off tourney, that we have hosted for multiple years now, is a win-and-advance setting..

Your website listed TBA for BOTH games, not just the second game.

[Pat Coleman]

Here's the conversation about the schedule, NCC:
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4592.msg1599508

[CCIW >]

Yes, UW-Whitewater who played on the road at Hope and then on the road at Augustana was afraid of North Central.  Yes, that's it

Hey man, Im as surprised as any of y'all... But once again, why would a team change their OWN hosted tournament that has been a multi year tradition. Heck, I am pretty sure there is trophy given to the winner each year that went to waste this year. Haha

[CCIW >]

Here's the conversation about the schedule, NCC:
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4592.msg1599508

Thanks Pat.
Tough for me to read much into Warhawks version of the story after seeing that. In no way would Whitewater Coaching Staff be under the impression that they would "DEFINITELY"  be playing NCC on Day 2... It is a win-and-advance tourney, so no telling who will make the final.. In the past NCC has failed to make the championship game on Day 2 and I know coming into the year, NCC expectations were not very high. NCC coaches made it very clear in pre-game prep that Trinity was going to be a challenge.

[sac]

Hope played down there 3 years ago, NCC's "tournament" was called a "classic",  we were paired to play NCC the second game win or lose.  Fortunately since both teams were fed giant delicious cupcakes that year, winning on Friday wasn't a problem for either team.  Both your tournament's history and your recollection are a little dubious.

[CCIW >]

Hope played down there 3 years ago, NCC's "tournament" was called a "classic",  we were paired to play NCC the second game win or lose.  Fortunately since both teams were fed giant delicious cupcakes that year, winning on Friday wasn't a problem for either team.  Both your tournament's history and your recollection are a little dubious.

Clearly called "Tournament"....
http://northcentralcardinals.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=97&path=mbball
Sponsored by Marriot as usual