MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AO]

IWU recruit names I have seen on Twitter...

* Nick Coleman, 6-2 PG/SG (St. Patrick H.S., Chicago)
* Mark Falotico, 6-1 PG/SG (St. Viator H.S., Chicago)
* Ben Sestak, 6-6 SF (Sacred Heart-Griffin H.S., Springfield)

Why would any PG or SG's come to IWU right now?  The roster is grossly overloaded with SG/PG's and the coaches kid will be the main focus the next 3 years.  This past year's roster had 16 Guards on it with only 3 seniors graduating.  Contrast that with NCC as an example -- they only have 10 Guards on the roster

Then why bring in more Guards? This team needs Bigs.  Talk about hoarding players.  AAU coaches have been critical of IWU in how they hoard players -- and this is an example of it.  These incoming Freshman guards have very little chance of any meaningful minutes the next 3 years.  If I'm a HS guard and his family, IWU is off scope for two more seasons.

Would you be happier if they cut the JV program?  If North Central and IWU both tryout 35 players and IWU cuts less players, why would you be upset with IWU?

[Titan Q]

Another point on iiwwuu's agenda-driven comments about 16 guards in 2014-15...

IWU's men's basketball roster includes a whole bunch of kids who decided to go to school at IWU knowing they were an extreme longshot of contributing at the varsity level -- and were told so by the head coach.  (Obviously every kid knows what guys are currently playing in the varsity rotation, who else is on the roster, etc - this information isn't top secret.)  But they decided they wanted to go to IWU (academically, socially, etc) and be part of the basketball program.  I guess Ron Rose could just cut all of these kids, instead of having them be part of the team, so he doesn't have to hear about "hoarding" players from iiwwuu.  With this being Division III, I am sure glad he doesn't.

There are players who are "recruited" and there are players who kind of recruit themselves.  I think everyone basically knows that.  It's great that D3 rosters are made up of both kinds of kids. 

At the end of the day, at every school, the best players are going to play.

[joehakes]

Well said Q.  I continue to be amazed at how little understanding some folks have about the process of going to college.  Basketball is only going to take you so far. It's your education that lasts forever.  If kids want to take their chances on some playing time, how is that anyone else's business to criticize them for it?

[DFLDWarriorsCCIW]

Hey iiwwuu, your constant mentions of "IWU hoarding" are making it hard for anyone to take your other points seriously.  As Greek Tragedy, AO and Titan all point out, no one in the incoming class that will graduate in 2019 should be blind to which players/positions are penciled in to the rotation (one, probably etched in stone). Anyone coming to IWU to play combo or shooting guard spots surely knows it'll be a long, possibly futile wait.  The same wait as anyone looking at playing a wing at NCC in the class of 2020.   As Titan Q says, how do you even know whether these players weren't among the group that "recruit themselves".  I believe that the best senior guard from my suburb was heavily recruited by IWU and hasn't been listed yet and it's almost May.  Maybe he recognized the limited path and went elsewhere. (Only two guards committed to IWU seems low vs prior years are there more Q?). The kids have to weigh a lot of factors.  They should be choosing the school mostly for it's academics, but I'm sure playing time sneaks into the equation.  Ultimately as everyone has pointed out, it's the kids' decision.  CCIW coaches are just "doing their job".  So give the hoarding concept a rest, because this year's recruiting list, at least for now, appears to disprove your point.  Would love to hear from you on anything else.  Can't wait for the next "Raridon era" to begin.  Bring on November!!   

[Mr. Ypsi]

This Titan would like to thank the several non-Titans who have come to the support of our program from the attacks of the obviously misleadingly named iiwwuu.  Alas, his profile doesn't include his e-mail address (which is in violation of the Terms of Service), but I'd be willing to bet it would be an account at some other CCIW school!

Pat, perhaps I don't know where to look, but his profile seems to violate TOS #1, and his name seems to implicitly violate #6.  I have submitted a Report to Moderator about these points.

[toooldtohoop]

I, for one, would lose no sleep over what 95% of AAU coaches have to say about anything.

[LetsGetRipped]

A year ago my son was recruited by IWU.  They were very up front during the process about him being their #2 target at PG for that class.  Was a pleasure to get to know Coach Henderson (who is no longer there).  We had done our homework and had pretty well figured out that there was indeed a really long bench chuck full of guards.  Even with that info my kid held out hope that IWU would call.  The process at IWU is intoxicating.  Great winning program with a magic atmosphere.  And the academics aren't bad either.  But it got to be April 1 and our lives were on hold waiting on IWU and the #1 PG target.  My son at that point decided not to be known as a #2 and went another direction without regret.  Turns out #1 did too going to D2.  Still no regrets.  Even when coach Henderson called in late April, we declined his invitation with no regrets.  IWU again is up front to recruits about what is in the cupboard.  All these kids are recruited.  I don't buy the notion that kids just show up to play at IWU.  Every player they get has a great high school pedigree.  They all roll in thinking they can contribute right away.  I'm gonna defend iiwwuu to some extent.  I think some of these kids could be sat down and given a hard cold reality check by the IWU staff.  I don't know if that happens.  Didn't happen to my son.   I would not call it hoarding.  But the sales and marketing never stops.  Obviously it is a successful strategy.  So I have never had negative thoughts about what IWU or anybody else is doing.  I'm just glad we did our homework.  My son is better off.  And so is my checkbook.  There was a statement made about listening to AAU coaches.  Be careful when stereotyping these coaches.  It is my experience that the vast majority of these coaches are pretty good folks with good intentions.  I'm glad we got solid advice from AAU coaches.  And even if you won't listen to them....the kids, their parents, and your college coaches are listening to them.

[Gregory Sager]

It's simple. It's hard to get someone to commit to a school that chargers almost 40,000 a year without any scholarships. Nice campus amazing facilities but ridiculous price. Not a great sports atmosphere either. They were just better options for myself and my family.

Excuse me, but who are you, and what in the world are you referring to/talking about?

Also, once was enough! 

I believe he is a kid out of Kenosha who decided NOT to go to Carthage.  #11 from Indian Trail.  http://www.hudl.com/athlete/1717070/andre-brown

I liked his post. First of all, he put his own name to it. I respect that. Second, he clearly and articulately stated his reasons for not choosing Carthage -- and he didn't trash the school in the process. He simply said that it's too expensive, and I respect that, too. Sometimes I think that we CCIW fans can get caught up within our own bubble, especially those of us who either were enrolled at our respective schools long before the tuition prices got jacked up to such astronomical amounts or who never paid a CCIW tuition bill at all. But for those looking in on this league from the outside, what they see is that our schools are very, very expensive. I can't fault any kid for opting to look elsewhere, even though my thoroughly biased opinion is that a CCIW education is worth it in the end.

[Gregory Sager]

The kids have to weigh a lot of factors.  They should be choosing the school mostly for it's academics, but I'm sure playing time sneaks into the equation.

Social issues play a role as well. It's certainly not unheard of for a student-athlete to be influenced by the college decisions of his friends (especially if one of them has the syllable "girl-" attached to the front of the word "friend'). For others, the specific type of social atmosphere plays a role as well. As one poster pointed out here a couple of months ago, the presence of a very large state university adjacent to the Illinois Wesleyan campus brings with it the inducement of a lot of partying opportunities if you go there. By contrast, I'm sure that there are student-athletes who choose Wheaton because, in part, they want to avoid choosing a school where alcohol is the sine qua non of campus social life.

[GoPerry]

The kids have to weigh a lot of factors.  They should be choosing the school mostly for it's academics, but I'm sure playing time sneaks into the equation.  Ultimately as everyone has pointed out, it's the kids' decision.  CCIW coaches are just "doing their job".   

I don't know if other high schools do this, but every Spring our athletic department conducts a seminar/panel for athletes/parents on the college recruiting process and they invite 5 or 6 coaches to speak.  The coaches were  D1, D3, and NAIA from various sports.  It was a great benefit to my daughter,  a junior at the time, and for us as parents.  They had lots of great advice but the very best that was echoed by all the coaches was to choose a college where you will be happy and enjoy if you were not involved in the sport(personal choice, lack of playing time, injury).  College is not high school.  There is no natural  progression of bench time as a frosh/soph, more playing time as a junior and starter as a senior.  The good programs will get good freshmen every year so even if you come in as a backup guard to a junior all conference player, you might end up being on the practice squad for 4 seasons. Therefore, see your athletic involvement as an education enhancer and weigh heavily all the other benefits of the institution.     

A year ago my son was recruited by IWU.  They were very up front during the process about him being their #2 target at PG for that class.  Was a pleasure to get to know Coach Henderson (who is no longer there).  We had done our homework and had pretty well figured out that there was indeed a really long bench chuck full of guards.  Even with that info my kid held out hope that IWU would call.  The process at IWU is intoxicating.  Great winning program with a magic atmosphere.  And the academics aren't bad either.  But it got to be April 1 and our lives were on hold waiting on IWU and the #1 PG target.  My son at that point decided not to be known as a #2 and went another direction without regret.  Turns out #1 did too going to D2.  Still no regrets.  Even when coach Henderson called in late April, we declined his invitation with no regrets.  IWU again is up front to recruits about what is in the cupboard. 

Thanks for this.  We appreciated that all the coaches that my daughter and we met with(all D3) all sold their schools and programs passionately.  At the same time they all gave honest feedback as to where they saw her abilities at the time, before her senior hs season, and where they initially saw her in their 'lineup'.  This is all you can ask for whether you agree or disagree.  They all stayed in touch via occasional emails, etc.  Some coaches were willing to use a preference for her(they were all very academically competitive schools) and some welcomed having her on the team if she could get admitted on her own. 

I'm sure there are coaches that might mislead recruits in the interest of their program.  This might be especially true of rebuilding programs or schools that don't offer as much academically.  Thankfully this wasn't our experience at all.  I might even question the longer term success of a coach or program who does otherwise.

IWU's men's basketball roster includes a whole bunch of kids who decided to go to school at IWU knowing they were an extreme longshot of contributing at the varsity level -- and were told so by the head coach.  (Obviously every kid knows what guys are currently playing in the varsity rotation, who else is on the roster, etc - this information isn't top secret.)  But they decided they wanted to go to IWU (academically, socially, etc) and be part of the basketball program.  I guess Ron Rose could just cut all of these kids, instead of having them be part of the team, so he doesn't have to hear about "hoarding" players from iiwwuu.  With this being Division III, I am sure glad he doesn't.

There are players who are "recruited" and there are players who kind of recruit themselves.  I think everyone basically knows that.  It's great that D3 rosters are made up of both kinds of kids. 

Agreed.  Perhaps there's a misunderstanding of how recruiting goes in the D3 world vs what we all see/hear in D1 football and basketball?  My impression is that the great majority of recruits show up on a schools radar when the athletes themselves fill out the recruitment interest form on the website.  I suppose that schools might send a targeted mailing out to their local area, but after that I doubt the coaching staff has the resources to "go seeking" without some initial interest from the athlete.  The exceptions will be referrals from alumni and HS coaches who bring athletes to their attention and another might be a place like IWU having a natural advantage to recruit and target kids in Bloomington/Normal where Rose et al might make initial overtures.  But I guess I'd be surprised if they first contacted the kid from St Viator or St Patrick(for example) cold. 

[Titan Q]

My impression is that the great majority of recruits show up on a schools radar when the athletes themselves fill out the recruitment interest form on the website.  I suppose that schools might send a targeted mailing out to their local area, but after that I doubt the coaching staff has the resources to "go seeking" without some initial interest from the athlete.  The exceptions will be referrals from alumni and HS coaches who bring athletes to their attention and another might be a place like IWU having a natural advantage to recruit and target kids in Bloomington/Normal where Rose et al might make initial overtures.  But I guess I'd be surprised if they first contacted the kid from St Viator or St Patrick(for example) cold.

I don't think this is accurate, GoPerry.  Division III coaches spend a ton of time in the recruiting process "seeking."  I think the majority of CCIW recruits (the kids who are truly "recruited") are identified proactively by the coaching staff, and contacted cold. 

In the next 60 days or so, coaches will begin contacting current juniors for next year's recruiting process.  Those names come from a variety of sources:
* Recruiting services
* Kids they saw play as juniors (maybe while recruiting someone else)
* Referrals (AAU coaches, HS coaches, alums, etc)
* All-state, all-area lists
* etc

[Ralph Turner]

Great discussion. I think that iiwwuu, who apparently may be a newbie to the boards, has been instructed in the benefits of going to a D-3 college to get an education while enjoying the rigors and discipline that we learn from competitive athletics.

IWU successfully builds strong student-athletes who will "go pro" in something else in life. Yeah, it's cliche' but only to those outside D-3 who don't know us.

[GoPerry]

IWU recruit names I have seen on Twitter...

* Nick Coleman, 6-2 PG/SG (St. Patrick H.S., Chicago)
* Mark Falotico, 6-1 PG/SG (St. Viator H.S., Chicago)
* Ben Sestak, 6-6 SF (Sacred Heart-Griffin H.S., Springfield)

My impression is that the great majority of recruits show up on a schools radar when the athletes themselves fill out the recruitment interest form on the website.  I suppose that schools might send a targeted mailing out to their local area, but after that I doubt the coaching staff has the resources to "go seeking" without some initial interest from the athlete.  The exceptions will be referrals from alumni and HS coaches who bring athletes to their attention and another might be a place like IWU having a natural advantage to recruit and target kids in Bloomington/Normal where Rose et al might make initial overtures.  But I guess I'd be surprised if they first contacted the kid from St Viator or St Patrick(for example) cold.

I don't think this is accurate, GoPerry.  Division III coaches spend a ton of time in the recruiting process "seeking."  I think the majority of CCIW recruits (the kids who are truly "recruited") are identified proactively by the coaching staff, and contacted cold. 

In the next 60 days or so, coaches will begin contacting current juniors for next year's recruiting process.  Those names come from a variety of sources:
* Recruiting services
* Kids they saw play as juniors (maybe while recruiting someone else)
* Referrals (AAU coaches, HS coaches, alums, etc)
* All-state, all-area lists
* etc

Ok Q and thank you. This is interesting.  So you would say (or you likely know) that all 3 of these young men were "cold call"contacted by the staff in the way you describe?  (And I don't mean a form letter sent to every all conf player in the midwest to see who raises their hand).  If IWU were to get 10 commitments, would they have all been similarly contacted?  That would be surprising to me if true, and I have no basis to doubt what you're saying by the way.  I'd be interested to hear if others believe this is common at other schools besides IWU as well.

By the way, per NCAA rules I believe contact can only be via email until a certain date, perhaps July 1 before their senior year?  That is unless the athlete initiates the contact or comes to campus themselves.

[veterancciwfan]

Regarding IWU: There are many players who come to IWU mainly for the academics, particularly those with high ACTs. They know that they have to compete and convince the coaching staff that they deserve playing time. And most of them enjoy being on the team (practices, friendships, trips it they make the 15 (usually) man traveling team). Even if they never earn much playing time, they really enjoy being part of something that is a) successful b) fun and c) important to their college experience. 

[Gregory Sager]

Great discussion. I think that iiwwuu, who apparently may be a newbie to the boards, has been instructed in the benefits of going to a D-3 college to get an education while enjoying the rigors and discipline that we learn from competitive athletics.

No, that's not really the case, Ralph. The poster who calls himself iiwwuu has been around since mid-February, and he's basically been hammering the same three points ever since. Here's his five previous posts:

Interesting to see what is happening to this team.  Over the course of the conference season, offense goes missing and match ups with other teams strengths are not properly managed.  IWU's is short on big men and way, way, way too deep on guards.  In fact we are so deep on guards, one has to question whether we are not playing players who need to play and who need to be developed.  Another question which increasingly needs to be answered, why is Brady Rose playing so many minutes - and not producing on a points per minute stat - and Stemple is not playing.  Stemple is in a few games ago and scores 11 in a very short span.  Stemple plays last year and produces, yet now it's all Brady Rose.  What is driving the playing time decisions?  What impact does Ron Rose's decision to play his son so much have on the psyche and opinion of the other players on the team?  This team has now underperformed in two key games in a row.  I know that Ron is beloved by the IWU community, but suddenly the decision making appears to be biased, and not in the best interests of the team.  The judgement related to his own son, and motivation of players, and game strategy, now all seem to be sliding downwards.  Why are we so incredibly deep in guards for the class of '16, '17, '18?  Where are the big men to replace Victor and Z?  Why so many guards (1's, 2's, 3's) and no big men?  How can we develop this many guards and maintain a leading D3 team?  I'm not seeing it, and the beginning of a slide may be at hand.  Welcome the thoughts of others, but the awful loss to Augie at home and NPU on the road in key contests suggests otherwise.

Interest post.  Regarding IWU, a very clear issues:  1) Ron Rose has already cast aside recruits to be replaced by his son, regardless fo their skills or commitment.  2) IWU is dearly lacking bigs.  A huge deficit!  And on that will not change in the next 4 years.  3) Ron's reputation is that as a coach who 'hoards' players.  Case in point, his roster of 29 players is far larger than any other CCIW school from what I see.  Carthage, NPU, NCC... all have around 19-20 players on roster.  Hoarding will begin to affect recruitment.  Why would a recruit go to IWU when they see other very good players get shoved down the depth chart or off the playing time list completely.  A growing issue for IWU...

Both Greg and Titan Q have been very kind to iiwwuu, who seems to have joined in the last week and whose first two posts are highly critical of--one could say an attack on--Ron Rose.  The idea that a DIII coach--or ANY coach--could "hoard" players in the current higher education environment is absolutely absurd.  DIII players are not on athletic scholarships (and those are limited even at DI and DII).  All small colleges, including IWU, are finding it extremely difficult to cover the financial needs of their students and balance the books (and let's not even start on faculty compensation!).  Combine that with demanding admission requirements and the job of recruiting becomes even tougher.

With respect I'm going to counter your point above with the premise that the 'hoarding' of players actually benefits IWU.  Here's why... If the IWU basketball roster has 7-9 additional players who are recruited, and lacking the offer to play IWU basketball I am assuming that almost all of them would go to another college.  If we assume that 1 of the 7-9 would have gone to IWU anyway, and if you assume financial assistance of $13k of the $48k it costs to go to IWU, you still have 6-8 players who pay $35k/year to attend.  The result is an extra $210k-280k per year of extra income for IWU.

Is IWU's roster larger and is 'hoarding' occurring?  Look at the MBB rosters for other CCIW schools -- Augustana 19 / NCC 16 / Carthage 21 / Elmhurst 21 / Wheaton 18 (source: each schools web site).  At 27, IWU's roster is significantly larger.  And in the AAU circuit, and backed by the figures above, it would seem to indicate that IWU's roster is in fact bloated - to the benefit of IWU, to the benefit of the basketball program, and to the detriment of the players imho.  I'm simply pointing out a trend that I see developing, and one that I don't think is in the best interest of IWU or the players.  Its a fair discussion.  And one that impacts the success of the program.

As far as playing Brady Rose, IWU needed to get from 11 players down to 10 when CCIW play started...11 is just one too many, even for a deep team.  That decision seems to have come down to Rose vs Stempel...tough call, as both kids have nice upsides and are talented.  I can tell you, based on conversations I've had with Ron Rose this season, that he is naturally inclined to not play Brady...because of perceptions.  I know that for him to have made that decision that he truly believes that Brady is the right guy to have on the floor.  It's not because he's his son - I do know that for sure. 

The stats don't support your statement that Rose is inclined not to play his son.  In fact the stats support the opposite.  From the IWU basketball stats web site:  Pts per minute - Stemple .47, Rose .29.  Yet Rose (211) played more minutes over Stemple (189).  A few other Guard benchmarks on PPM -- Doyle .40, Overstreet .40.  Interesting to say the least.  Make your own objective assessment from the stats.  IMHO, Stemple was more valuable to the team and should not have been the "11th" man as you say.  Coach's decision is open to question using objective measures. 

Subjectively, starting early in the season Coach in fact played Brady more that stats and output or experience would have indicated was fair.  Thinking long term, what is the impact on recruiting?  The class of '17 is left wondering if Brady will take over Overstreets minutes for their next two years and they will be cast aside.  The class of '18 sees the writing on the wall, and more importantly perhaps, why would a guard in the class of '19 and '20 even think about coming to IWU when the cast has already been set with Brady taking over the prime guard spot when performance does not indicate it.  As with IWU losing only 3 guards this year, and an oversized roster already saturated in guards, why would a recruit even remotely consider IWU for the next 2-3 years. 

Sorry if this goes against the grain of blind support for the program.  I'm not arguing Ron Rose past success.  Without question the stats demonstrate it.  But this is the first season where he had to make decisions with his son on the roster, and it appears to me that quite the opposite of your contention there he was bias to 'not playing' Brady that in fact he played in more minutes that he deserved based on production.  At least that's what the objective stats would seem to indicate.

Fair question:  Stemple - FG% 56.5%, 3pt FG 50%, Asst/Turnover Ratio .78;  Rose - FG% 37.9%, 3pt FG 34.2%, Asst/Turn 1.80.  Stemple wins the offensive stats decisively.  Which further begs the question, what is with the coaching choices to bring up Brady so quickly to varsity and displace Stemple?  There are no objective measures to drive Rose's playing time.  This will create an issue with existing players, and seriously hamper the next 2 years of recruiting for guards.  Playing Rose was not an objective decision; it was because of subjective influences.  The numbers do not support the playing time Rose received.

To sum up:

* He thinks that Illinois Wesleyan head coach Ron Rose inordinately favors his son Brady in terms of playing time;
* He doesn't think that Illinois Wesleyan has enough big men; and
* He thinks that the IWU program has a bloated roster as the result of player hoarding, and that this roster bloat works against the program's best interests.

He's not a newbie, and he really hasn't shown any interest in those larger D3 issues of which you spoke. Contrary to what Bob and Chuck believe, the evidence indicates that iiwwuu is clearly a dissenting Titans fan, in the same vein as the now-silent poster who called himself OurHouse.

I challenged him in February for his statement about Wesleyan's big-man shortage, but, other than that, I don't have any issues with him. He doesn't buy the company line with regard to his favorite team, and that's perfectly fine by me. The idea that everybody within a fan base has to think alike is absurd. Heck, it's a novelty when you get the three most active NPU posters (myself, Dennis Prikkel, and Mark Erickson) to agree on anything besides rooting for the Vikings.