MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg: "Gimme churn anyday ... unless NPU starts dominating, in which case I'll reevaluate my philosophy. "  Substitute IWU for NPU and I'll totally agree with this post!   While NPU has 5 national titles, IWU has one, and (so far) no one else has any, IWU for the life of the conference has far more total wins and CCIW titles than anyone else.  Yet rarely, if ever, have we been truly dominating (just almost always pretty darn good) - e.g., the conference tourney has now existed for nine(?) years; during that time we have been to two FFs, yet have NEVER won the damned tourney!  In the short run, I'd be giddy about whuppin' everyone by huge margins, but in the long run I'm pretty sure I would find it boring (UWW and UMU football fans, along with Kenyon swimming fans, Messiah soccer fans, etc., may or may not agree ).

It IS much more interesting when virtually every game is truly a contest, and virtually every team has, if not a good shot at the title, at least a good shot at respectability.  Of course, parity alone is not enough - parity can (and in some conference does) exist because all the teams are about equally lousy.  The ideal (and I can't offhand think of any d3 conference that is clearly above the CCIW in this regard) is high level parity.

[kiko]

The ideal (and I can't offhand think of any d3 conference that is clearly above the CCIW in this regard) is high level parity.

I would argue that the NESCAC fits this definition -- they are a lot more than just Amherst and Williams.  We can quibble with how arduous their path to Salem might or might not be, but they get a variety of teams there regularly, and once there, they've gotten the job done more than our schools have.

This is of course not an exact match, but Amherst and Williams are their IWU and Augie, except with more Walnut and Bronzes.  Trinity is their Elmhurst, with a recent multi-weekend stay in the tournament but some challenging seasons.  Wesleyan is their Carthage, with generally .500 seasons and one deep run in recent memory.  Middlebury is their North Central, and though the Sons of Warden beat the Panthers head-to-head in Salem, Middlebury has been a tad less up-and-down in recent years.

I can't force the comparison to find a Wheaton without straining credularity, and there is no faded-glory-but-signs-of-a-renaissance equivalent to North Park to be found.  But Connecticut College can be their Millikin.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I can see why you'd think I was only talking about men's bball, but I wasn't.  (And if I was, I'd add ODAC to the mix.)

NESCAC is virtually unbeatable due to 'niche' sports other conferences don't compete in.  Arbitrarily defining it as sports with fewer than 150 schools, NESCAC wins the Director's Cup every year due to fencing, skiing, rowing, etc.  In the 'major' sports they are 'elite' but not uniquely so.

It's been a few years since I checked sports participation, but I'm gonna somewhat arbitrarily define the 'major' sports as:
  football
  M&W basketball
  M&W soccer
  baseball
  softball
  volleyball
  M&W lacrosse
  M&W T&F

In those 12 sports I will not yield a significant advantage to any other conference (though I doubt we are competitive yet in lacrosse or volleyball?).

[Titan Q]

Here's a serious question.  And before you misunderstand the direction I'm going here, I'm not comparing the WIAC to the CCIW and trying to claim one league is better than the other.

I know this board has been boasting (and for good reason) about 3 different teams in the last four Final 4s. Yet they've lost in the semis in three of them. The WIAC on the other hand, has had 2 dominant teams for the last 10+ years.

Admittedly,  I'm envious with the fact that the CCIW has so much parity with the likes of Augie, IWU,  Wheaton,  NCC, Carthage and Elmhurst (my apologies to Millikin and Sager's North Park). I'm actually a little disappointed in the WIAC since Stevens Point and Whitewater have only had sporadic challenges from the likes of Platteville and River Falls recently.  I almost feel the WIAC has fallen into that MIAA (Hope and Calvin), NESCAC (Amherst and Williams) category; where it's generally a 2-team top-heavy league.

Better to have parity or two dominant teams winning championships?

I'm not sure really what's "better", but if the conversation is about determining the "best conference" (and I'm not sure if that is where you are going here or not) then I think it comes down to 1) parity, and 2) strength at the top.  I think both have to be in place.

The "top conference" in Division III men's basketball seems to rotate between a small number of leagues.  Massey had the CCIW as #1 in 2014-15 - http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2015&sub=11620&c=1 - and I think subjectively most would arrive at that same conclusion.  The CCIW had a nice balance of Top 25-caliber teams (Augustana, IWU, Elmhurst, North Central) and parity.  As to the latter, the damage done by the bottom 4 on the top 4 was pretty impressive.

Here is a a little snapshot of the CCIW and WIAC over the last 5 years:

(records are for regular season conference games only)

CCIW (last 5 years, 2010-11 through 2014-15)
1. Illinois Wesleyan 54-16 (.771) -- 2 CCIW titles/5 NCAA appear./12 NCAA wins/2 Final Four
2. North Central 49-21 (.700) -- 2 CCIW titles/2 NCAA appear./6 NCAA wins/1 Final Four
3. Augustana 48-22 (.686) -- 2 CCIW titles/3 NCAA appear./8 NCAA wins/1 Final Four
4. Wheaton 44-26 (.629) -- 3 NCAA appear./5 NCAA wins
5. Carthage 36-34 (.514)
6. Elmhurst 26-44 (.371) --  1 NCAA appear./1 NCAA win
7. North Park 14-56 (.200)
8. Millikin 9-61 (.129)

WIAC (last 5 years, 2010-11 through 2014-15)
1. UW-Stevens Point 70-10 (.875) --  4 WIAC titles/5 NCAA appear./11 NCAA wins/1 Final Four/1 national champ
2. UW-Whitewater 64-16 (.800) -- 2 WIAC titles/4 NCAA appear./13 NCAA wins/2 Final Four/2 national champs
3. UW-Platteville 46-34 (.575)
4. UW-La Crosse 44-36 (.550)
5. UW-River Falls 31-49 (.388) -- 2 NCAA appear./0 NCAA wins
6. UW-Stout 26-54 (.325)
7. UW-Superior 24-56 (.300)
8. UW-Eau Claire 23-57 (.288)
9. UW-Oshkosh 22-58 (.275)

[kiko]

I can see why you'd think I was only talking about men's bball, but I wasn't.  (And if I was, I'd add ODAC to the mix.)

NESCAC is virtually unbeatable due to 'niche' sports other conferences don't compete in.  Arbitrarily defining it as sports with fewer than 150 schools, NESCAC wins the Director's Cup every year due to fencing, skiing, rowing, etc.  In the 'major' sports they are 'elite' but not uniquely so.

It's been a few years since I checked sports participation, but I'm gonna somewhat arbitrarily define the 'major' sports as:
  football
  M&W basketball
  M&W soccer
  baseball
  softball
  volleyball
  M&W lacrosse
  M&W T&F

In those 12 sports I will not yield a significant advantage to any other conference (though I doubt we are competitive yet in lacrosse or volleyball?).

Setting aside that your definition of major sports is really arbitrary -- Lax is a johnny-come-lately outside of New England and the Acela corridor, and while I'm not gonna get Ypsi'ed into looking it up for you, I would bet it has lower participation numbers than Cross Country -- I'm not sure exactly what you are arguing.  Is it 'the CCIW goes deeper than most conferences?'  That's where I thought you were headed, and I don't think that is true across sports to nearly the extent that it is in Men's basketball.  But now it seems to be 'the CCIW has strong teams across all the major sports to a greater extent than do other conferences'.  That's a different thing entirely, and also not something I'm necessarily willing to sign up for.

I'll buy that the ODAC belongs in the conversation for men's basketball.  I don't follow them as closely because (1) they don't get villified, if that's the right word, on these boards nearly as much as the NESCAC does, and (2) I work with an Amherst grad so we always fight the good fight when everyone starts filling out NCAA tournament brackets.  ("Why are you only filling it out now?  The tournament started two weeks ago...")

BTW, we had three schools make the 32-team volleyball field this year.  We didn't hear about it on this board from IWU70 because none of them are located in Bloomington.

[Gregory Sager]

I can see why you'd think I was only talking about men's bball, but I wasn't.  (And if I was, I'd add ODAC to the mix.)

NESCAC is virtually unbeatable due to 'niche' sports other conferences don't compete in.  Arbitrarily defining it as sports with fewer than 150 schools, NESCAC wins the Director's Cup every year due to fencing, skiing, rowing, etc.  In the 'major' sports they are 'elite' but not uniquely so.

It's been a few years since I checked sports participation, but I'm gonna somewhat arbitrarily define the 'major' sports as:
  football
  M&W basketball
  M&W soccer
  baseball
  softball
  volleyball
  M&W lacrosse
  M&W T&F

In those 12 sports I will not yield a significant advantage to any other conference (though I doubt we are competitive yet in lacrosse or volleyball?).

Setting aside that your definition of major sports is really arbitrary -- Lax is a johnny-come-lately outside of New England and the Acela corridor, and while I'm not gonna get Ypsi'ed into looking it up for you, I would bet it has lower participation numbers than Cross Country

I'll say. I think it's ridiculous to put lacrosse -- even the men's version -- on the same plane as the Big Four. (And there's holdouts who would insist that it's still a Big Three, not a Big Four; I can't help but think of Dennis Prikkel's line that soccer is a Communist plot.) As kiko said, lacrosse is a big deal in the northeast (it was as big in my high school in upstate NY as football and basketball, and that was back during the Carter Administration), but it's practically unknown out here and has only limited high-school sponsorship in Illinois.

By the way, without looking it up, I'd bet that men's and women's cross-country have the highest participation rates among D3 member schools of any sports, or at least close to it. After all, they're incredibly cheap programs to run compared to other sports.

-- I'm not sure exactly what you are arguing.  Is it 'the CCIW goes deeper than most conferences?'  That's where I thought you were headed, and I don't think that is true across sports to nearly the extent that it is in Men's basketball.  But now it seems to be 'the CCIW has strong teams across all the major sports to a greater extent than do other conferences'.  That's a different thing entirely, and also not something I'm necessarily willing to sign up for.

It would take a more exhaustive study than I'm willing to do right now (as I sit here in the press box and wait for today's baseball doubleheader to start) to figure out if the See See Eye Dubya's more balanced than other leagues in the other Big Four sports, but I'm skeptical. Football's never been really balanced; for a long time it was Augie and the Eight (then Seven) Dwarves, then it was the Top Four / Bottom Four years with nary an upset to be found between the two sets of teams, and for most of this millennium it's been North Central with consistent (but usually futile) competition from Wheaton and IWU, and little else. Men's soccer? It's Wheaton and North Park, and then a bunch of other teams that never win the CCIW title and have hardly ever made the D3 tourney, much less won a match. Baseball has nice churn. But anybody who is projecting great balance in this league across the board based upon only looking at men's basketball is making a mistake.

I'll buy that the ODAC belongs in the conversation for men's basketball.  I don't follow them as closely because (1) they don't get villified, if that's the right word, on these boards nearly as much as the NESCAC does, and (2) I work with an Amherst grad so we always fight the good fight when everyone starts filling out NCAA tournament brackets.  ("Why are you only filling it out now?  The tournament started two weeks ago...")

BTW, we had three schools make the 32-team volleyball field this year.  We didn't hear about it on this board from IWU70 because none of them are located in Bloomington.

LOL!

We had four teams make the D3 softball tourney three seasons ago -- and the fifth-place team, North Park, led all three NCAA divisions in team fielding percentage. Softball may be our best overall sport as a league.

[Titan Q]

Wheaton
* Reagan Jones, 6-7 PF (Lake Braddock H.S., Burke, VA)
* Trae Masten, 6-6 SF (South Side H.S., Fort Wayne, IN)
* Mike Peters, 6-1 PG/SG (Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy, Stow, OH)

Luke Peters (Tyler's brother), 6-3 G/F also from CVCA is going to Wheaton.  I haven't heard anything about Mike (Tyler's cousin).  Although you may know something I don't.

Just to follow up, Mike Peters is going to Division III Baldwin Wallace.  Indeed, Luke is the only Peters from CVCA going to Wheaton.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChxnbDIB7Xc


Michael Peters @MJPeters_25  ·  Apr 18
Proud to say I have committed to attend Baldwin Wallace University! So thankful and excited for this opportunity!

[Mr. Ypsi]

I can see why you'd think I was only talking about men's bball, but I wasn't.  (And if I was, I'd add ODAC to the mix.)

NESCAC is virtually unbeatable due to 'niche' sports other conferences don't compete in.  Arbitrarily defining it as sports with fewer than 150 schools, NESCAC wins the Director's Cup every year due to fencing, skiing, rowing, etc.  In the 'major' sports they are 'elite' but not uniquely so.

It's been a few years since I checked sports participation, but I'm gonna somewhat arbitrarily define the 'major' sports as:
  football
  M&W basketball
  M&W soccer
  baseball
  softball
  volleyball
  M&W lacrosse
  M&W T&F

In those 12 sports I will not yield a significant advantage to any other conference (though I doubt we are competitive yet in lacrosse or volleyball?).

Setting aside that your definition of major sports is really arbitrary -- Lax is a johnny-come-lately outside of New England and the Acela corridor, and while I'm not gonna get Ypsi'ed into looking it up for you, I would bet it has lower participation numbers than Cross Country -- I'm not sure exactly what you are arguing.  Is it 'the CCIW goes deeper than most conferences?'  That's where I thought you were headed, and I don't think that is true across sports to nearly the extent that it is in Men's basketball.  But now it seems to be 'the CCIW has strong teams across all the major sports to a greater extent than do other conferences'.  That's a different thing entirely, and also not something I'm necessarily willing to sign up for.

I'll buy that the ODAC belongs in the conversation for men's basketball.  I don't follow them as closely because (1) they don't get villified, if that's the right word, on these boards nearly as much as the NESCAC does, and (2) I work with an Amherst grad so we always fight the good fight when everyone starts filling out NCAA tournament brackets.  ("Why are you only filling it out now?  The tournament started two weeks ago...")

BTW, we had three schools make the 32-team volleyball field this year.  We didn't hear about it on this board from IWU70 because none of them are located in Bloomington.

The omission of CC was purely a 'brain-fart' - if using the 150-school criterion, I also forgot golf, tennis, swimming and diving, and indoor T&F (all for both genders) as well as women's field hockey.  [These figures are all from 2010-11, as recorded on the Directors' Cup discussion in General Division III Issues.]  My exclusion of the CCIW as competitive in volleyball was sheer ignorance - I don't follow the game and my only knowledge of d3 volleyball comes from the MIAA board where Calvin and Hope (of course! ) are national powers.  IF the 150-participating schools rule is used, LaX is definitely a keeper as even four years ago there were 179 schools for men and 216 for women - I don't know about the women, but my understanding is that men's LaX is the fastest expanding sport in the country.

My 'arbitrary' standard for 'major' sports DOES need some work - the 150-school criterion has just expanded the list from 12 to 23!  For the curious, as of 2010-11, the 150+ schools-participating sports were (in descending order):

Women: basketball, soccer, volleyball, CC, softball, tennis, outdoor track, swimming and diving, indoor track, LaX, golf, field hockey.
Men: basketball, soccer, CC, baseball, tennis, golf, outdoor track, indoor track, football, swimming and diving, LaX.

IF anyone has an interest in 'major' vs. 'minor' sports, I suppose some sort of formula combining participation and fan (media?) interest would be in order.  Personally, I kinda burned out doing the 'Ypsi Cup' in 2012 (modifying the Directors' Cup by the Participation Ratio of schools by sport).  I'm sure it would seem weird on most campuses to give more importance to such a calculation to golf, cross country, tennis, and indoor track than to football, but that is the result of the participation ratio.  (There are campuses where wrestling or ice hockey, neither of which are played at even 150 schools, are THE premier sport.)  If anyone has an interest, feel free to duplicate the 'Ypsi Cup' (and feel free to substitute your own name!), or modify in any way you see fit - either way, I'm available for any assistance you request.

[AndOne]

Not sure what the positions of the other CCIW schools are, but North Central will start men's volleyball next year, and recently announced plans to begin men's lacrosse and women's triathlon in 2016-17. These 3 additions will result in the expansion of the NCC athletic department to a total sponsorship of 25 sports programs.

[unanimous22]

Women's triathlon?

How many D1 schools even have that?

[joehakes]

No matter what the sport, it is a major sport to the kids who play it.  That is the DIII Philosophy.  It baffles me how people who spend so much time following DIII don't get that.  While some may get more publicity or draw more fans, it is all still "love of the game."

[Pat Coleman]

Yeah, triathlon is certainly very new. I applaud any attempt to add women's sports rather than cut men's sports, however.

[AndOne]

No matter what the sport, it is a major sport to the kids who play it.  That is the DIII Philosophy.  It baffles me how people who spend so much time following DIII don't get that.  While some may get more publicity or draw more fans, it is all still "love of the game."

Yeah, triathlon is certainly very new. I applaud any attempt to add women's sports rather than cut men's sports, however.

North Central athletics is fortunate in that the College's past President Hal Wilde, who retired 12/31/12, was a big believer in the proposition that athletics serves as a supporting pillar to academics, and an enhancement to the overall college experience. It was under his leadership that NCC football emerged from the shadows. New President Troy Hammond appears to share the same view, having been seen at many NCC sports events between the time of his hiring and his taking office, and continuing, and now with the addition of 3 new sports in a 2 year period.

There has been much discussion on the boards in the past with regard to the relationship between the level of support from a school administration, and the degree of success in the athletic arena.

[badgerwarhawk]

No matter what the sport, it is a major sport to the kids who play it.  That is the DIII Philosophy.  It baffles me how people who spend so much time following DIII don't get that.  While some may get more publicity or draw more fans, it is all still "love of the game."

Yeah, triathlon is certainly very new. I applaud any attempt to add women's sports rather than cut men's sports, however.

North Central athletics is fortunate in that the College's past President Hal Wilde, who retired 12/31/12, was a big believer in the proposition that athletics serves as a supporting pillar to academics, and an enhancement to the overall college experience. It was under his leadership that NCC football emerged from the shadows. New President Troy Hammond appears to share the same view, having been seen at many NCC sports events between the time of his hiring and his taking office, and continuing, and now with the addition of 3 new sports in a 2 year period.

There has been much discussion on the boards in the past with regard to the relationship between the level of support from a school administration, and the degree of success in the athletic arena.

There is no doubt that this has played a role in UW-WHITEWATER'S athletic success.  We've been really fortunate in that past three or four chancellors have been incredibly supportive of the athletic program.  Hopefully that continues when the new chancellor is hired.

[NCF]

No matter what the sport, it is a major sport to the kids who play it.  That is the DIII Philosophy.  It baffles me how people who spend so much time following DIII don't get that.  While some may get more publicity or draw more fans, it is all still "love of the game."

Yeah, triathlon is certainly very new. I applaud any attempt to add women's sports rather than cut men's sports, however.

North Central athletics is fortunate in that the College's past President Hal Wilde, who retired 12/31/12, was a big believer in the proposition that athletics serves as a supporting pillar to academics, and an enhancement to the overall college experience. It was under his leadership that NCC football emerged from the shadows. New President Troy Hammond appears to share the same view, having been seen at many NCC sports events between the time of his hiring and his taking office, and continuing, and now with the addition of 3 new sports in a 2 year period.

There has been much discussion on the boards in the past with regard to the relationship between the level of support from a school administration, and the degree of success in the athletic arena.

Women's triathlon has released the names of the 8 schools who received the USA Triathlon emerging sport grant. http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/ncaa.aspx It is a small group indeed, but I agree with Pat that it is better to add another sport for women than to take away a sport for men.