MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[GoPerry]

New d3hoops.com rankings:

    1. Augustana (still unanimous)
    5. Elmhurst (up from ##6)
    ORV: North Central (up from 4 points to 21)

Illinois Wesleyan went from an ORV with 29 points to being out of the poll completely.

Current Massey:

    1. Augustana
    7. Elmhurst
  11. North Central
  30. North Park
  68. Illinois Wesleyan
130. Carthage
132. Wheaton
162. Millikin

C'mon voters.  Isn't it time Benedictine gets ranked ahead of Elmhurst since they're #5 and #6(#6, #7 last poll) and they have the head to head win over them AT Elmhurst?  I could understand how it might've taken a little time especially with BenU not ranked pre-season.  But 6 weeks in I think we all know that this undefeated BenU squad is legit.  I doubt it's a big deal to either team and it's only 5 votes.  But giving them their rightful place lends a little more poll credibility. 

[iwu70]

Have to agree with GoPerry on BU. 

'70

[Mr. Ypsi]

New d3hoops.com rankings:

    1. Augustana (still unanimous)
    5. Elmhurst (up from ##6)
    ORV: North Central (up from 4 points to 21)

Illinois Wesleyan went from an ORV with 29 points to being out of the poll completely.

Current Massey:

    1. Augustana
    7. Elmhurst
  11. North Central
  30. North Park
  68. Illinois Wesleyan
130. Carthage
132. Wheaton
162. Millikin

C'mon voters.  Isn't it time Benedictine gets ranked ahead of Elmhurst since they're #5 and #6(#6, #7 last poll) and they have the head to head win over them AT Elmhurst?  I could understand how it might've taken a little time especially with BenU not ranked pre-season.  But 6 weeks in I think we all know that this undefeated BenU squad is legit.  I doubt it's a big deal to either team and it's only 5 votes.  But giving them their rightful place lends a little more poll credibility.

Agreed, but voters have a hard time with teams coming virtually from nowhere like Benedictine has done.  Those with long memories may even go back to 2006, where Lawrence ran the table in the regular season (and rose to #1), then were beaten at home in round three by IWU.  Benedictine has now beaten their main opponents, and may well reproduce Lawrence of 2006, but can they produce in the tourney?

I have great respect for Benedictine this year, but some (many?) voters may feel they have 'floated up' too high already.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I have Elmhurst ahead of Benedictine right now and maybe not for good reason. Benedictine made a big move up my poll as I did a partial blowup, but I didn't swap the two. I might not have thought that through enough, but it crossed my mind. I have stated in the past that head-to-head doesn't always make a determination for me... but that doesn't mean it can't and in this case it probably should.

I am just nervous about Benedictine considering they only played CCIW opponents and Elmhurst is their top one while the rest (i.e. IWU, Wheaton, etc.) have turned out to be "average" (by their standards) so far this season. So with that thought in mind, I took a look at Benedictine's schedule and determined they only had one "significant" win (Elmhurst) and a number of a solid victories. I get nervous moving a team that wasn't even on my radar (let alone their own - this start I am pretty sure has surprised them) way up the poll in the first half of the season before they get into the meat of their conference schedule with not much more than one significant win. I've been burned on this before (NYU SMH).

However, you could make the same argument with Elmhurst to be sure. They don't have a major win on their resume so far, but my expectations for Elmhurst were already high and they are meeting those expectations. Yes, I understand the argument from many that previous years and preseason expectations shouldn't be what I lean on at this point in the season. That's a worthy argument, but Elmhurst was already high on my poll because I thought they were a very good team going in. Harder to argue they should move down the poll if I don't believe it... than it is to move Benedictine up the poll when they are surprising everyone.

In time... they may swap - maybe even next week. And now you have read a portion of this week's blog. LOL

[Mr. Ypsi]

I have Elmhurst ahead of Benedictine right now and maybe not for good reason. Benedictine made a big move up my poll as I did a partial blowup, but I didn't swap the two. I might not have thought that through enough, but it crossed my mind. I have stated in the past that head-to-head doesn't always make a determination for me... but that doesn't mean it can't and in this case it probably should.

I am just nervous about Benedictine considering they only played CCIW opponents and Elmhurst is their top one while the rest (i.e. IWU, Wheaton, etc.) have turned out to be "average" (by their standards) so far this season. So with that thought in mind, I took a look at Benedictine's schedule and determined they only had one "significant" win (Elmhurst) and a number of a solid victories. I get nervous moving a team that wasn't even on my radar (let alone their own - this start I am pretty sure has surprised them) way up the poll in the first half of the season before they get into the meat of their conference schedule with not much more than one significant win. I've been burned on this before (NYU SMH).

However, you could make the same argument with Elmhurst to be sure. They don't have a major win on their resume so far, but my expectations for Elmhurst were already high and they are meeting those expectations. Yes, I understand the argument from many that previous years and preseason expectations shouldn't be what I lean on at this point in the season. That's a worthy argument, but Elmhurst was already high on my poll because I thought they were a very good team going in. Harder to argue they should move down the poll if I don't believe it... than it is to move Benedictine up the poll when they are surprising everyone.

In time... they may swap - maybe even next week. And now you have read a portion of this week's blog. LOL

I've been in on this discussion many a time.  Eventually past seasons shouldn't matter, but I'm not entirely convinced that is true.  In 2006, I was 100% certain that IWU would beat Lawrence.  History.  For several years in a row I bemoaned the graduation losses of the IWU women as they were climbing the ladder.  I was sure it was doom and gloom with those seniors gone.  I FINALLY realized that one person didn't graduate: Mia Smith.  Bingo, national champs.

While it shouldn't overcome everything else, PROGRAM HISTORY does matter.  There are reasons that some programs are consistently better than others.  I salute Benedictine for their fabulous start (and quite possibly 25-0 finish), but are they for real, or 2006 Lawrence?

[Titan Q]

In my opinion, by early-January the poll should be voted on based exclusively on 2015-16 data/information.  I believe we are too late in the season to be factoring in what we thought about teams in October and November.

Regarding Elmhurst and Benedictine, having watched them both multiple times, I think they are very, very close.  Seeing them next to each other in the poll seems right.  But Benedictine should be the higher one -- BU beat Elmhurst at Elmhurst.  They led that game 47-19 at halftime.  In looking at the complete bodies of work for both teams, there isn't anything that trumps this result at this time.

Benedictine and Elmhurst are both outstanding.  These are Final Four-caliber teams.

[Titan Q]

I've been in on this discussion many a time.  Eventually past seasons shouldn't matter, but I'm not entirely convinced that is true.  In 2006, I was 100% certain that IWU would beat Lawrence.  History. 

IWU beating Lawrence in 2006 had nothing to do with history, Chuck.  It had to do with IWU having better players in 2006 - namely 1st Team All-Americans Adam Dauksas ('06), Keelan Amelianovich ('06), and Zach Freeman ('07) - and the team finally coming together during the NCAA tournament.  The Titans, for whatever reason, really struggled in CCIW play and finished an incredibly disappointing 9-5.  When the tournament started, everything clicked. 

IWU was better than that great Lawrence team (and it was truly a great team - they could have won the national championship) and won a really tough road game.  The Titans were bigger and stronger at almost every position on the floor - I think IWU out-rebounded Lawrence by about 15.  History had absolutely nothing to do with what happened that night.

Those who are stuck on history are most likely not aware how talented the 2015-16 Benedictine team is.

[GoPerry]

I am just nervous about Benedictine considering they only played CCIW opponents and Elmhurst is their top one while the rest (i.e. IWU, Wheaton, etc.) have turned out to be "average" (by their standards) so far this season. So with that thought in mind, I took a look at Benedictine's schedule and determined they only had one "significant" win (Elmhurst) and a number of a solid victories. I get nervous moving a team that wasn't even on my radar (let alone their own - this start I am pretty sure has surprised them) way up the poll in the first half of the season before they get into the meat of their conference schedule with not much more than one significant win. I've been burned on this before (NYU SMH).

Fair enough. It's axiomatic that polls are single-point-in-time opinions(like this post) and teams will move up and down with wins and losses.  In fact, the point might be moot by 10pm central tomorrow night if Augustana takes down the 'Jays @ Elmhurst.   My thinking is more EC relative to BenU thinking that if a voter ranks the two teams within one or two spots of each other(presumably because they are thought to be very close to each other), shouldn't the head to head result be more determinant?  Granted, a 5 point difference, especially in the top 10, basically means the group of voters do view them as a toss up and the voting math tells me that some placed Benedictine slightly ahead of Elmhurst, while others placed them 4-5 spots below them.  But if an individual voter were to rank one right after the other, it wouldn't make sense to me to put EC ahead of BenU.  This, as opposed to say EC vs John Carroll- no head to head, no common opponents.

What will be interesting to watch is next week's poll if Elmhurst beats Augustana.  Same type of question: will presently unanimous #1 Augustana still end up ranked above Elmhurst?  If it's a close game at Faganel, they might. And then, if Benedictine(Massey #2 with 8th toughest SOS so far) goes 2-0 this week will they hop EC?  Doubtful but I'd still argue they should.

Having said all that, I'm grateful for all you guys who spend a lot of time and research on producing the weekly poll.

[AppletonRocks]

I've been in on this discussion many a time.  Eventually past seasons shouldn't matter, but I'm not entirely convinced that is true.  In 2006, I was 100% certain that IWU would beat Lawrence.  History. 

IWU beating Lawrence in 2006 had nothing to do with history, Chuck.  It had to do with IWU having better players in 2006 - namely 1st Team All-Americans Adam Dauksas ('06), Keelan Amelianovich ('06), and Zach Freeman ('07) - and the team finally coming together during the NCAA tournament.  The Titans, for whatever reason, really struggled in CCIW play and finished an incredibly disappointing 9-5.  When the tournament started, everything clicked. 

IWU was better than that great Lawrence team (and it was truly a great team - they could have won the national championship) and won a really tough road game.  The Titans were bigger and stronger at almost every position on the floor - I think IWU out-rebounded Lawrence by about 15.  History had absolutely nothing to do with what happened that night.

Those who are stuck on history are most likely not aware how talented the 2015-16 Benedictine team is.

And there was that few minutes late in the 2nd half in 2006 when Lawrence had to play 5:8. Right in front of the everyone. Thought this was WWE for awhile.    Wish we could ask the Roop about it.   

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just to make sure there isn't any confusion:

- When I talk about history, I am talking about program history and Mr. Ypsi nailed the reason: the head coach. If I have confidence or know the head coach can do some incredible things with the talent, I may give them the benefit of the doubt or at least rank them maybe a little higher. That happens across the board in all sports. Coaching is a major determining factor in Top 25s - it isn't all about the talent, but what you can or can't do with the talent or lack of talent in the cupboard.
- I am not indicating I am still leaning on preseason expectations in any way shape or form. I am indiciating that Benedictine wasn't on my radar based on preseason thoughts and that Elmhurst was pretty high (maybe too high) based on preseason expectations. That has set-up a situation where bringing Elmhurst down and behind Benedictine hasn't won the argument based on where they began the season.
- I am looking at the current data and seeing the one thing that is different - a head to head win for Benedictine. But considering all the other data along with Elmhurst playing as expected and Benedictine playing way above expectations (they weren't even picked to win the conference by their own conference coaches!) doesn't mean I should swap them. That leads to further cons I may have for Benedictine one of which is: are they really for real? I want to see more on their resume in conference - against teams and coaches who know them the best especially the second time around during the season - before I am ready to buy more in.

Great thing about this week's Top 25? I can reconsider next week, and the following week, etc., etc., etc.

[AndOne]

Congrats to North Central"s Alex Sorenson on being named to the D3Hoops Team Of The Week.

Alex Sorenson

Averaged 18.5 points, 14.0 rebounds and 6.0 blocked shots in two North Central victories and 19 points, 12 boards and 4.3 blocks in the three games. He tied the school record for blocks in each of the two wins. Sorenson recorded all six blocks in second half at Robert Morris-Chicago as North Central limited the Eagles to 21.6 percent shooting in the second half. Put up 24 points on 9-of-10 shooting (4-of-5 from 3-point range) on Saturday as North Central opened CCIW play with a 76-64 win over North Park.

[sac]

Just to make sure there isn't any confusion:

- When I talk about history, I am talking about program history and Mr. Ypsi nailed the reason: the head coach. If I have confidence or know the head coach can do some incredible things with the talent, I may give them the benefit of the doubt or at least rank them maybe a little higher. That happens across the board in all sports. Coaching is a major determining factor in Top 25s - it isn't all about the talent, but what you can or can't do with the talent or lack of talent in the cupboard.
- I am not indicating I am still leaning on preseason expectations in any way shape or form. I am indiciating that Benedictine wasn't on my radar based on preseason thoughts and that Elmhurst was pretty high (maybe too high) based on preseason expectations. That has set-up a situation where bringing Elmhurst down and behind Benedictine hasn't won the argument based on where they began the season.
- I am looking at the current data and seeing the one thing that is different - a head to head win for Benedictine. But considering all the other data along with Elmhurst playing as expected and Benedictine playing way above expectations (they weren't even picked to win the conference by their own conference coaches!) doesn't mean I should swap them. That leads to further cons I may have for Benedictine one of which is: are they really for real? I want to see more on their resume in conference - against teams and coaches who know them the best especially the second time around during the season - before I am ready to buy more in.

Great thing about this week's Top 25? I can reconsider next week, and the following week, etc., etc., etc.

Benedictine was picked 2nd in the NACC.  The difference in that vote was two poll points, or two first place votes that went to Concordia(WI).  They have beaten the NACC preseason  #1 by 13, #3 by 28, #4 by 26, #6 by 22, to go with their 5-0 record vs the CCIW, 3 of those on the road.

Benedictine was 18-9 last year, they tied for the conference championship.  They lost 2 games to IWU and NCC by 1 point in each game.


A team overlooked, yes. 

[Titan Q]

Benedictine was picked 2nd in the NACC.  The difference in that vote was two poll points, or two first place votes that went to Concordia(WI).  They have beaten the NACC preseason  #1 by 13, #3 by 28, #4 by 26, #6 by 22, to go with their 5-0 record vs the CCIW, 3 of those on the road.

Benedictine was 18-9 last year, they tied for the conference championship.  They lost 2 games to IWU and NCC by 1 point in each game.


A team overlooked, yes.

Actually, Benedictine beat IWU last year.

http://www.iwusports.com/boxscore.aspx?id=2886&path=mbball

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

We had an extensive chat with Benedictine's coach earlier this season on Hoopsville.

[bbfan44]

How can you pooh-pooh a team that lost in the 3rd round of the playoffs (Lawrence, mentioned earlier)?  How many teams would like to make it that far regardless of their won-loss record.  I know you're not saying the team was bad, you're saying they were rated too high.

Hey guess what?  It happens in all sports at all levels.  Rarely does a team that starts #1 end up winning the whole salami.