MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

First off, if you check my very first post in this conversation you will note that I agreed that Benedictine should be ranked above Elmhurst.

Secondly, iwumichigan, I do not discuss here the artistic merits of the IWU music or dramatic arts (or visual arts, for that matter) graduates - to even list them would take a Sagerian epistle, much less to discuss them!

I, like most if not all posters, usually use my alma mater for examples - it's what we are most familiar with.  joehakes, the Travis Grant/Elmore Smith/Bill Graham story was to illustrate what I saw as the importance that NPU (with two overwhelming stars) had a really good third option.  Greg, the Mia Smith reference (as d-mac understood) was to show the importance of continuity of coaching leadership in success.  I'll plead guilty to sometimes going overboard with the 'green Kool-Aid', but I plead 'not guilty' on the recent allegations.

And note that (until now) I never even mentioned Jack Sikma or Olivia Lett!

[Titan Q]

Illinois Wesleyan (6-6, 0-1) vs Wheaton (4-8, 0-1), 7:00pm

Illinois Wesleyan (6-6, 0-1)
G - Joel Pennington, 6-0/180 Sr.  (8.9 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 2.9 rpg)
G - Bryce Dolan, 6-1/165 Sr.  (16.1 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 3.0 apg)
G - Andy Stempel, 6-4/192 Jr.  (9.3 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2.5 apg)
F - Ryan Coyle, 6-6/210 Sr.  (7.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg)
F - Trevor Seibring, 6-8/235 Jr.  (15.8 ppg, 6.3 rpg)

Wheaton (4-8, 01)
G - Troy Morrison, 5-11/165 Fr.  (3.2 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.8 apg)
G - Jonathan Bernsten, 6-0/190 Sr.  (13.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.4 apg)
G - Ricky Samuelson, 6-3/185 So.  (12.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 1.0 apg)
F - Murad Dillard, 6-4/175 So.  (7.9 ppg, 4.4 rpg)
F - Michael Berg, 6-6/210 Sr.  (14.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg)


Pantagraph - http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/dolan-earning-place-among-top-iwu-shooters/article_88116dc8-6e25-52ad-a593-23917d88ea5d.html

Live Video/Stats - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/iwu/

WJBC Radio - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wjbc/

[GoPerry]

Illinois Wesleyan (6-6, 0-1) vs Wheaton (4-8, 0-1), 7:00pm

Illinois Wesleyan (6-6, 0-1)
G - Joel Pennington, 6-0/180 Sr.  (8.9 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 2.9 rpg)
G - Bryce Dolan, 6-1/165 Sr.  (16.1 ppg, 1.8 rpg, 3.0 apg)
G - Andy Stempel, 6-4/192 Jr.  (9.3 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 2.5 apg)
F - Ryan Coyle, 6-6/210 Sr.  (7.2 ppg, 3.6 rpg)
F - Trevor Seibring, 6-8/235 Jr.  (15.8 ppg, 6.3 rpg)

Wheaton (4-8, 01)
G - Troy Morrison, 5-11/165 Fr.  (3.2 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.8 apg)
G - Jonathan Bernsten, 6-0/190 Sr.  (13.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.4 apg)
G - Ricky Samuelson, 6-3/185 So.  (12.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 1.0 apg)
F - Murad Dillard, 6-4/175 So.  (7.9 ppg, 4.4 rpg)
F - Michael Berg, 6-6/210 Sr.  (14.7 ppg, 9.5 rpg)


Pantagraph - http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/dolan-earning-place-among-top-iwu-shooters/article_88116dc8-6e25-52ad-a593-23917d88ea5d.html

Live Video/Stats - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/iwu/

WJBC Radio - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wjbc/

Wheaton played really well against Augustana on Saturday but ended up with nothing for it except another L.  I'll be interested to see if they can muster a similar effort tonight at Shirk (and perhaps still not get the W).  Despite IWUs record, this game should feel just like the one in Rock Island to the Thunder.  If they approach it any differently it could be a long night.

New d3hoops.com rankings:

    1. Augustana (still unanimous)
    5. Elmhurst (up from ##6)
    ORV: North Central (up from 4 points to 21)

Illinois Wesleyan went from an ORV with 29 points to being out of the poll completely.

Current Massey:

    1. Augustana
    7. Elmhurst
  11. North Central
  30. North Park
  68. Illinois Wesleyan
130. Carthage
132. Wheaton
162. Millikin

C'mon voters.  Isn't it time Benedictine gets ranked ahead of Elmhurst since they're #5 and #6(#6, #7 last poll) and they have the head to head win over them AT Elmhurst?  I could understand how it might've taken a little time especially with BenU not ranked pre-season.  But 6 weeks in I think we all know that this undefeated BenU squad is legit.  I doubt it's a big deal to either team and it's only 5 votes.  But giving them their rightful place lends a little more poll credibility.

A lively debate to be sure but the calculus likely changes some after tonight's nationally (at least in the D3Hoops world) marquee game in Elmhurst.

So let's play the games!

[bbfan44]

Speaking of Massey.....he has Benedictine at #2

And he is indicating Augie is a one point favorite tonight at Elmhurst.

[veterancciwfan]

bbfan44: Great post. Massey is impartial and stat based. Maybe we can put this subject to rest.

[mwunder]

bbfan44: Great post. Massey is impartial and stat based. Maybe we can put this subject to rest.

According to Massey, Carthage will not win another game this season.  Hope that's not correct.

[AndOne]

SMH... I don't have the time to respond to everything Greg. You can read my blog tomorrow since it took most of the day to put together and I am already well past my device-curfew for the night (doctor enforced). However, I do want to say one thing... I am NOT ranking teams based on what they did last year or ten years ago. If you read what I am saying and make that connection I can't help you. I am voting based on this year. My point that I have tried to make whether successfully or not... is to say that there is one factor involved in voting for the teams that is consistent and that's coaching. And that does have some past associated with it. Am I looking at an IWU team and the players on the floor and comparing them to a squad from ten years ago? Hell no. Am I looking at the coaching leading the way for Augustana and comparing what I have seen him do over the course of the last ten years? Yes! What the hell is wrong with that small part of the entire process? What is wrong with looking at a team and debating how a coach is successful or not as part of considering how good they are or could be with the talent they have in place right now?

This year, Benedictine blew out Elmhurst.  And, red herrings about NYU aside, it does not appear to be an outlier.

If you are ranking Elmhurst above Benedictine because Elmhurst "brought back a team that was pretty darn good last season along with a coach who clearly has shown he has a grasp of things", and Benedictine "has been all over the map under the direction of Coach Bunkenburg and thus when I am trying to understand what direction they are truly headed in", then you are, in fact, not basing your vote on this year.  You can tell yourself that you are, but the combination of this rationale and dismissing the rather decisive results from an actual game played on an actual court during this season explicitly says that reputation and 2014-15 factors more into your vote than 2015-16.

Keith Bunkenburg has been around for 20 years at Benedictine, and has done a pretty darn good job, averaging 16 wins a year.
John Baines is a very good coach. However, he is only in his 3rd year at Elmhurst, meaning he inherited all the seniors that make up the current outstanding Elmhurst team. So, if we're talking about coaching being part of the ranking equation, lets remember that Bunkenburg is working with his players while Baines is working with someone else's.

Secondly, the NCAA always pushes that the D3 experience is for the student-athletes. Accordingly, i wouldn't want to be a Ben U student-athlete on this year's 12-0 team and be penalized by being ranked behind an 11-1 team that my team beat at their gym because my head coach hasn't previously made a splash nationally. That doesn't seem like the correct student-athlete experience that the Benedictine players should currently be feeling.   

[bbfan44]

Mwunder, that's an interesting look ahead you caught. I hope it is wrong, too.  And, I suspect since it is a dynamic rating method...and Carthage has a relatively new "dynamic" player that the rating and forcast will change.

[Pat Coleman]

I found this to be amusing. I am not sure anyone's been more vocal about how NYU gets overrated in the early season than Dave has. Used to be me but now Dave handles that subject so well that I don't bother.

Yeah, but that's NYU every year. Why you and other pollsters ever buy into the Shrinking Violets in the first place based upon gaudy but empty November and December results totally escapes me.

Pretty sure I've run this chart somewhere before. It's NYU men's non-conference record followed by their conference record for the past nine seasons:

2014-15   11-3, 8-6
2013-14   10-2, 6-8
2012-13   10-2, 5-9
2011-12   12-1, 9-5
2010-11   12-1, 4-10
2009-10   10-3, 7-7
2008-09   13-1, 4-10
2007-08   10-3, 6-8
2006-07   14-0, 8-6

[Pat Coleman]

Besides me, who is going to be at Elmhurst tonight?

[AndOne]

Would love to be there to see Elmhurst beat Augie, but I have a previous engagement in Naperville. 

[Gregory Sager]

SMH... I don't have the time to respond to everything Greg. You can read my blog tomorrow since it took most of the day to put together and I am already well past my device-curfew for the night (doctor enforced). However, I do want to say one thing... I am NOT ranking teams based on what they did last year or ten years ago. If you read what I am saying and make that connection I can't help you. I am voting based on this year. My point that I have tried to make whether successfully or not... is to say that there is one factor involved in voting for the teams that is consistent and that's coaching. And that does have some past associated with it. Am I looking at an IWU team and the players on the floor and comparing them to a squad from ten years ago? Hell no. Am I looking at the coaching leading the way for Augustana and comparing what I have seen him do over the course of the last ten years? Yes! What the hell is wrong with that small part of the entire process? What is wrong with looking at a team and debating how a coach is successful or not as part of considering how good they are or could be with the talent they have in place right now?

This year, Benedictine blew out Elmhurst.  And, red herrings about NYU aside, it does not appear to be an outlier.

If you are ranking Elmhurst above Benedictine because Elmhurst "brought back a team that was pretty darn good last season along with a coach who clearly has shown he has a grasp of things", and Benedictine "has been all over the map under the direction of Coach Bunkenburg and thus when I am trying to understand what direction they are truly headed in", then you are, in fact, not basing your vote on this year.  You can tell yourself that you are, but the combination of this rationale and dismissing the rather decisive results from an actual game played on an actual court during this season explicitly says that reputation and 2014-15 factors more into your vote than 2015-16.

Keith Bunkenburg has been around for 20 years at Benedictine, and has done a pretty darn good job, averaging 16 wins a year.
John Baines is a very good coach. However, he is only in his 3rd year at Elmhurst, meaning he inherited all the seniors that make up the current outstanding Elmhurst team. So, if we're talking about coaching being part of the ranking equation, lets remember that Bunkenburg is working with his players while Baines is working with someone else's.

Mark makes a very good point here.

Besides me, who is going to be at Elmhurst tonight?

Are you referring to yourself or your Elmhurst PG namesake, Pat?

[Naperick]

Besides me, who is going to be at Elmhurst tonight?

I will hopefully make it for the 2nd half.

[iwu70]

IWU 82 WC 66

Stempel a career night at 24, Dolan 18, Coyle look'n good with a double-double 13 and 10.

IWU needs to get some momentum going.

'70

[mr_b]

North Park hangs on to defeat Carthage, 87-79.  Carthage cut the lead to three with under two minutes to go, but the Vikings widened the margin with a Juwan Henry layup and some clutch free throws. Henry led the Vikings with 28, Colin Lake had 18 (including four treys), and Jordan Robinson scored 15 and snagged 13 rebounds.  Carthage was paced by Kedrowski (16), Kruse (15), Leazer (14), and Stevenson (12)