MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[GoPerry]

Dave, thanks for the analysis.
Question for you please.

From what you're saying it still just seems to me that the bnumber of wins is really what counts most no matter who they are against. Let's say a team plays the most difficult schedule in the country and during the non conference portion of their schedule beats 4 teams in the top 20, beats 3 other teams, and loses to 4 teams in the top 20. Then in conference they go 11-3 with all three losses being to top 10 teams. They finish 18-7, then go to their conference tourney and finish 1-1, again with the loss to a top 10 team. Final record 19-8 with ALL loss to top 20 teams. Probably no tournament, right?

Now you have that same team. They play a non conference schedule against mostly poor teams and go 10-1. In conference they are the same 11-3, with all losses to top 10 teams, for a 21-4 final record. Even if they lose their first conference tourney game and finish 21-5, aren't they very likely going to the national tournament with those 21 wins despite playing a weak non-conference record?

But what I think might have happened with NCC is maybe they have pushed their out of conference too far. Sometimes it is great to have a wonderful SOS, but if you can't win with it... you are no longer helping yourself. I can understand a team who wants to prove themselves having an insane SOS. But that has less to do with making the NCAA tournament and more about improving the team and raising their expectations. If a team is going out there and going for a really tough SOS, but then can't win under it when the idea was to better position themselves for the post-season... they screwed themselves.

I like how Massey summarizes this same aspect of SOS with this quote . . . "Faith without works is dead.  James 2:20"

Sounds like James would've had NCC on the bubble too . . .

[Rafi]

This may have been discussed in years past, but why did the CCIW start a conference tournament?  It's great for the fans, and gives a bubble team a chance to get the AQ.  But, it's really hard on the pool C candidates if they don't win it.  If a team doesn't win the tournament, their W% will always go down (going 0-1 or 1-1 in the tourney).

This year it looks like it might impact NCC unless they go 12-2.  Without the conference tournament, they would look better for Pool C at 11-3.

I'm sure it's impacted others in past years.

The CCIW has had 3 in the tournament (ie 2 Pool C's) every year since the 2009 tournament except 2011.  That year NCC tied for the league title but were just 15-11 overall.   Wheaton went 18-8 and were probably on the final table on selection day.  Augustana and IWU earned bids.

By having a tournament you are only losing ground on those conferences that don't have a tournament like the UAA.  You are actually gaining ground by using the 4 team format on most conferences that go 6 or 8 or larger like the ODAC because your top teams SOS components are not as impacted by having to play one of the bottom teams of your conference.

Valid points.  I guess I'm just not a fan of conference tournaments having such an impact on the prospects of getting into the national tournament (both positive and negative), after the teams having already played a full conference schedule.

It just seems to have a greater impact than at the D1 level because of fewer games being played at D3.

I actually think most people, in most leagues would be happy without a post-season league tournament.  Its just the way college basketball turned a couple decades ago.   But the fan side of me has enjoyed our tournament in the MIAA for 24 years, its a nice week/weekend of basketball with one or two teams playing desperate basketball, it can be a lot of fun and really has not impacted our leagues NCAA prospects much over those 24 years except maybe 2 or 3 times.

I would agree that most times the tournament doesn't impact a league as a whole, but does impact which teams will represent the league in the tournament.  (i.e. Who the AQ is and who the last pool C team is)

[Rafi]

I am pretty confident North Central, with 11-3 in the CCIW and 1-1 in the conference tournament, would get in -- as long as they have a win over Augustana in their back pocket.  Wins over Augie and Elmhurst (who will be in the top 3 in the region), combined with NCC's volume of games vs regionally ranked opponents and great SOS, would probably be enough.  I think NCC has to win at home on Feb 3 vs Augie.

It is important to note here that if NCC does not get in at 11-3/1-1 it's because they scheduled NAIA Robert Morris (Chicago) instead of another D3 team. They played a game that didn't count, and lost out on a chance to add a 1-0 to their winning %.  The Cardinals had the same schedule-related (NAIA) problem last year.

Something else that would dramatically impact this is if North Park were to get into the regional rankings at some point.

[markerickson]

Henry asked for the ball, knowing he was in trey land, to see if he could net 50 points.  He was not trying to show up Carthage.  I see nothing wrong with his choice. 

[petemcb]

Henry asked for the ball, knowing he was in trey land, to see if he could net 50 points.  He was not trying to show up Carthage.  I see nothing wrong with his choice.

Agreed.

[Red and black]

The Carthage team stopped fouling with about 15 seconds left because the game was over!  All 5 Carthage players stayed on their offensive side of the court not even attempting to defend. How can anyone think it's appropriate to shoot any shot for any reason?   There is no excuse for that. I don't care if the individual was going for 100.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I am pretty confident North Central, with 11-3 in the CCIW and 1-1 in the conference tournament, would get in -- as long as they have a win over Augustana in their back pocket.  Wins over Augie and Elmhurst (who will be in the top 3 in the region), combined with NCC's volume of games vs regionally ranked opponents and great SOS, would probably be enough.  I think NCC has to win at home on Feb 3 vs Augie.

It is important to note here that if NCC does not get in at 11-3/1-1 it's because they scheduled NAIA Robert Morris (Chicago) instead of another D3 team. They played a game that didn't count, and lost out on a chance to add a 1-0 to their winning %.  The Cardinals had the same schedule-related (NAIA) problem last year.

Something else that would dramatically impact this is if North Park were to get into the regional rankings at some point.

It will only matter if they are in the final regional rankings... one ranked, always ranked no longer exists. So appearing in the first regional rankings in the grand scheme of things only matters for the second week for vRRO and then if they aren't there anymore... it's a moot point.

[hopefan]

The Carthage team stopped fouling with about 15 seconds left because the game was over!  All 5 Carthage players stayed on their offensive side of the court not even attempting to defend. How can anyone think it's appropriate to shoot any shot for any reason?   There is no excuse for that. I don't care if the individual was going for 100.

At a Webster ladies game the other day, Webster was way, way up, the bench of 17 or 18 players had been emptied except for one last lady, and with 45 second left she got the call... everyone stood up and cheered as she walked on to the floor, she must never get in, I commented to my wife... Lo and behold, she ends up with the ball, 15 ft from the hoop, 10 seconds left, no defense, wide open.. and she held it until the buzzer sounded... Afterwards, I saw her in the stands during the men's game and went over to give her a tease.."hey, you're the last person on the bench, you have a one time chance..the fans say shoot it!!"  She said "Thanks, but NO, the Coach would never want us to embarrass the other team like that.."

Sportsmanship BEFORE personal numbers.

[Rafi]

I am pretty confident North Central, with 11-3 in the CCIW and 1-1 in the conference tournament, would get in -- as long as they have a win over Augustana in their back pocket.  Wins over Augie and Elmhurst (who will be in the top 3 in the region), combined with NCC's volume of games vs regionally ranked opponents and great SOS, would probably be enough.  I think NCC has to win at home on Feb 3 vs Augie.

It is important to note here that if NCC does not get in at 11-3/1-1 it's because they scheduled NAIA Robert Morris (Chicago) instead of another D3 team. They played a game that didn't count, and lost out on a chance to add a 1-0 to their winning %.  The Cardinals had the same schedule-related (NAIA) problem last year.

Something else that would dramatically impact this is if North Park were to get into the regional rankings at some point.

It will only matter if they are in the final regional rankings... one ranked, always ranked no longer exists. So appearing in the first regional rankings in the grand scheme of things only matters for the second week for vRRO and then if they aren't there anymore... it's a moot point.

Dave - Do you know why that was changed?  I could understand not wanting a "once ranked, always ranked" process if there are rankings throughout the season where the early rankings may be way off.   But, when the first rankings are coming out 2/3rds of the way through the season, the rankings are generally indicative of the stronger teams in the region.

And if the purpose of tracking vRRO (assuming this is the case) is to show "quality" wins and losses, it seems like those games against teams that may have dropped out prior to the final rankings are still "quality"......especially if your team beating a RRO is the reason they dropped out.

Thanks

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It was changed a couple of years ago... I believe we have gone two seasons since the last time we had it. I can check in a bit because I remember the year the vRRO had a MAJOR impact and I believe it was 2013. Randolph got in mainly based on their vRRO numbers. The ODAC that year was loaded in the vRRO category.

However, this isn't a basketball-only decision. This is across the board for all sports, especially in Division III, who use the criteria (which is almost every sport in every division, believe it or not). There was a sentiment that the vRRO could greatly influence a team's resume based on conference games and some other aspects that makes them basically appear better than they really might be. One ranked, always ranked was actually one of the reasons we lost a week of regional rankings (used to be four). They didn't want the number to be too big. They finally went back to only ranked, but have not added a week of rankings for informational reasons.

My compromise would be twice ranked, always ranked... but that could also muddy the waters.

[augiefan]

As long as Augie keeps winning, I doubt Augie fans care whether they have any all conference players.  7 players in double figures last night speaks to depth and team play rather than one or two individuals taking the laboring oar. However, when the going gets tough Hunter Hill and Ben Ryan usually show up ready to play.

[toooldtohoop]

The Carthage team stopped fouling with about 15 seconds left because the game was over!  All 5 Carthage players stayed on their offensive side of the court not even attempting to defend. How can anyone think it's appropriate to shoot any shot for any reason?   There is no excuse for that. I don't care if the individual was going for 100.

At a Webster ladies game the other day, Webster was way, way up, the bench of 17 or 18 players had been emptied except for one last lady, and with 45 second left she got the call... everyone stood up and cheered as she walked on to the floor, she must never get in, I commented to my wife... Lo and behold, she ends up with the ball, 15 ft from the hoop, 10 seconds left, no defense, wide open.. and she held it until the buzzer sounded... Afterwards, I saw her in the stands during the men's game and went over to give her a tease.."hey, you're the last person on the bench, you have a one time chance..the fans say shoot it!!"  She said "Thanks, but NO, the Coach would never want us to embarrass the other team like that.."

Sportsmanship BEFORE personal numbers.

Absolutely!  In the midst of a game this competitive, how did he even know that he had 47?

[bbfan44]

The scoreboard at NP has the point totals for players who are on the floor.  A teammate probably told him, if he didn't see it himself.

[WUPHF]

Sportsmanship BEFORE personal numbers.

I think this story about the Webster bench player story is the perfect for juxtaposition because what you have on the one hand is a player who just made the floor choosing sportsmanship over numbers.  And, on the other hand, you have a player who played 44 minutes in a wild overtime game in which he was asked to lead his team through what was a come from way behind upset by the other team.

I would have to see it to be sure, but having never seen anyone here question his character before, I am OK with Henry taking his 29th shot of the game at that point.  Especially the three point shot.

[AndOne]

North Central 94
Millikin.         60

This one went pretty much as expected. NCC cruised to a i4 point halftime lead, and then stepped on the gas in the second half to out score the hosts by another 20 in a game in which they never trailed.

NCC

* Erwin Henry with a double-double of 13 points and 12 rebounds.
* Jayme Moten, 18 points, 5 three pointers.
* Connor Raridon, 18 points, 7 rebounds.
* Aiden Chang off the the bench with a perfect 5 for 5, including 3 threes, for 13 points.
* The Cardinals committed only 5 turnovers for the entire game.

MILLIKIN

* TJ Griffin, 15 points
* TJ Sims, 14 points
* Tommy Pilackas, 12 points

North Central shot 53.8% overall, and 47.4% from distance compared to 34.5% and 16.7% for Millikin.