MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

Greg,

Since you say you often answer questions that were meant for others perhaps you'll take a shot at this one.

* Lucas Johnson (who I have always said was a very good D3 player) was named the D3 POY.
* In head-to-head competition this year North Central's Alex Sorenson had 20 points, 8 rebounds, and 1 block vs. Johnson's 8 points, 6 rebounds, and 3 blocks.
* Sorenson was a unanimous 1st team All CCIW selection as was Augie's Ben Ryan.
* Sorenson was a D3Hoops 2nd team All Central Region selection as was Ryan.
* Sorenson averaged 15.3 PPG, and 7.7 RPG.
* Ryan averaged 14.0 PPG, and 7.1 RPG
* Ryan was D3Hoops 2nd team All American.
* Sorenson not only wasn't selected D3Hoops 2nd team All American, he wasn't selected to the 3rd or 4th team, or even named Honorable Mention.

Doesn't something seem amiss here?

A few weeks ago I posted here about the 20 & 10 Club. In basketball, a 20 and 10 season is universally perceived to be the ultimate statistical standard of excellence among forwards, particularly power forwards and centers, which means that what Jordan Robinson was accomplishing this season for North Park was something pretty huge.

In the NCAA's penultimate statistical rankings for 2015-16, only seven players in all of D3 averaged 20 and 10. Of the five among the seven who are seniors, two made All-American (Andre Norris, Dubuque, 1st team, and Will Fonseca, Staten Island, 3rd team) and two others made All-Region first team in their respective regions (Egzon Gjonbalaj, Brooklyn and Mitch Ford, Nazareth). All four played in the Reese's All-Star game in Salem on Championship Saturday. The fifth senior, Michael Murray of Rockford, missed a quarter of the season (presumably due to injury), which likely explains why he wasn't named to the Central Region's All-Region team at all, let alone All-American, or made the Reese's All-Star roster (although he was an All-NACC first-teamer).

The sixth 20 & 10 player and lone junior, Evan Greening of Pitt-Bradford, is an anomaly. He was only named to the All-AMCC third team, which is truly bizarre since he led the AMCC in both scoring and rebounding (to add further insult to injury, he was listed on the AMCC awards page under the wrong school). Since I strongly suspect that the SIDs of the various regions vote for players whom they haven't seen based upon league awards, it's no wonder that Greening got lost in the shuffle and didn't make the Great Lakes Region All-Region team. It looks to me that Greening was seriously jobbed.

Which brings us to the lone sophomore among the seven who made this season's D3 20 & 10 club, Jordan Robinson. He was stiffed by the CCIW coaches and only named to the league's second team, in spite of being the league's second-leading scorer and leading rebounder (by a full rebound and a half per game, and that's both CCIW-only stats and overall stats). Because, again, I strongly suspect that many (if not most) SIDs base their All-Region ballots upon league awards rather than upon statistics or archived online game footage when it comes to players whom they haven't seen in their own gyms, Robinson didn't make the All-Region team ... and was thus probably never in the conversation for All-American, either.

In other words, Mark, get in line at the complaint department counter.

And just because sophomores and their advocates are pushed to the end of the line doesn't mean that they don't have valid cases. 

I actually got in line earlier today to present my case to Judge McHugh. 

[Gregory Sager]

Would anyone disagree that NCC and NPU will be picked 1,2 (in whichever order) in the pre-season poll?  (My personal bet would be 1. NCC  2. NPU.)

Challengers would seem to be IWU, Carroll (good returners, but hard to judge a newcomer from another conference), and probably Augie (lose the vast majority of their fire-power, but they have depth and 'The Stomper/Jacket Tosser' - love him or hate him, but say he's not a helluva coach at your peril ).

The bottom four seem almost inevitable: Elmhurst graduated EVERYBODY, Wheaton may be the best of the rest, but is coming off a 1-13 conference season, Carthage lost their top returning scorer when Kedrowski transferred, and Sims was kicked out/dropped out at Millikin.  I'd call it a near miracle if any of the four made the conference tourney.

Chuck, first of all, you don't know that Sims was kicked out, or dropped out, of Millikin. Thus far I haven't seen any evidence posted that supports either contention. All we know is that he's not listed on next season's Big Blue roster ... which could mean any number of things.

Second, you're overstating the case regarding the second-division teams. A couple of big-time additions, especially if they're transfers who were on scholarship somewhere, and any one of those teams could be right in the thick of it for a CCIW tourney spot. It doesn't happen all that often that a program gets two instant big-timers simultaneously, but calling it a "near miracle" or stating that "the bottom four seem almost inevitable" is too extreme. Sure, they're likely to being up the rear next season in the CCIW, but let's wait and see what newbies those programs reel in before we consign them to 2016-17's outer darkness.

BTW, anyone hearing any rumors about expanding the tourney now that the conference has expanded?  I like four, but would not necessarily be opposed to six, with the top two seeds getting byes.

The CCIW men's basketball tournament will not expand, Chuck, no way, no how. It would only expand if the tourneys in all of the other CCIW-sponsored sports that have tourneys expand by the same amount of teams, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. I've heard zero amount of support for it among administrators, although it's not as though I'm the CCIW equivalent of Wikileaks.

Haven't heard anything about the possibility of the tournament being expanded (maybe #4 and #5 having a play-in game). The talk seems centered on how the extra two conference games will be scheduled. Looks like at least two, and possibly three, conference games in December. It's possible some teams will be playing conference games before completing their full slate of non-conference games.

Some will play two, some will play three. The new CCIW schedule is built around giving all nine teams an equal number of home Saturday dates. The two or three December games will be played early in the month (Saturday, Dec. 3, Wednesday, Dec. 7, and Saturday, Dec. 10, IIRC), so, naturally, everybody will be playing conference games before completing their full slate of non-conference games.

As much as I'd like to see NPU be a "fixture" up high next year, I do not envision that happening with such a woeful bench.  As I mentioned in the first half of the season, the over-reliance on the starters could have led to tired legs at the end of the season.  As we all know, NPU was positioned to finish fourth, but the team did not shoot well in three of its final four losses.

It wasn't because of "tired legs", Mark. Although four of the five NPU mainstays did average a couple more minutes per game than they did in 2014-15, some of that is due to the fact that the Vikings played a couple more overtime games than they did last year. NPU faltered late in the season because of the inability of the Vikings to rebound and play consistent defense. Those two problems existed all season long rather than just at the end of the season, but they more or less caught up with the Vikings down the stretch.

I think that Tom Slyder will always be an advocate of short rotations. That's his philosophy. It's not necessarily a bad one, either, especially when you have an extreme dropoff in ability between a Jordan Robinson or a Juwan Henry and whichever player comes in off the bench for either of them. (That's not a function of a "woeful bench", either, just a recognition of how good those two are.) Other coaches have made short rotations work, and I'm not just talking about back in the '70s or '80s, either. Wheaton's Bill Harris was noteworthy for the way he would only play seven or eight guys every night, and his success speaks for itself. If your players are conditioned properly, they can handle those minutes. The problem with a short rotation  -- or, for that matter, with a dramatic dropoff in ability between a starter and his substitute -- isn't "tired legs" (unless you're a running or pressing team that's asking 38-to-40 minutes of absolute breakneck pace from a starter, and that does not describe North Park), it's attrition. That's caused by either player unavailability due to injury, illness, or disciplinary action, or by in-game foul trouble -- and it's that, rather than "tired legs", that does in a well-conditioned team that plays a short rotation.

Having said all that, I agree with you that the Park had an inadequate bench this season. While everybody who posts here seems eager to slot NPU in the preseason #2 slot, I'd like to see the program add a couple of solid ready-to-go players to add to the rotation before I feel sanguine about slotting the Vikes that high.

[iwumichigander]

I expect NCC to be competing for a National Title next year. Don't think I'm being too optimistic on that front. Need to replace Moten, but otherwise they're pretty stacked.

Jayme Moten will indeed leave large shoes to be filled for NCC next season. In 2014-2015 he set the all time NCC single season record for 3 pointers, led the conference in 3 pointers made, and finished 5th in scoring. As a result, it was anticipated that he would likely be one of the conference leaders in scoring again this season. However, when the need arose for someone to step into the position of being the man to most often defend the opponent's most dangerous guard, Jayme willingly epitomized the T in team, and stepped up to this position at the expense of some of his scoring capabilities. An often explosive scorer who also developed into a top notch on the ball defender.

However, Jayme's loss is only half the story as far as what NCC needs to find a replacement for next season. They also lose Kevin Honn, 3rd on the team in both scoring and rebounding while coming off the bench as the team's 6th man. Playing an average of only 21 minutes a game, Kevin finished 20th in league scoring, 13th in rebounds, and 6th in FG percentage. Down the stretch, he averaged 13.6 while shooting 63.6% from the floor over the last 10 games. Another big pair of shoes to fill.

I agree that Honn is a loss, but I think that will be more than made up for by the improvement of the kids. I'm more worried about Moten's departure.

For what it is worth, I thought the play of Kevin Honn off the bench a very big part of North Central success.  Yes, NCC starters very good but without the bench contribution tough to win the in the latter part of the season as the competition continues to improve.

[AndOne]

Absolutely. You have that 100% correct iwumichigander.

[AndOne]

Haven't heard anything about the possibility of the tournament being expanded (maybe #4 and #5 having a play-in game). The talk seems centered on how the extra two conference games will be scheduled. Looks like at least two, and possibly three, conference games in December. It's possible some teams will be playing conference games before completing their full slate of non-conference games.

Some will play two, some will play three. The new CCIW schedule is built around giving all nine teams an equal number of home Saturday dates. The two or three December games will be played early in the month (Saturday, Dec. 3, Wednesday, Dec. 7, and Saturday, Dec. 10, IIRC), so, naturally, everybody will be playing conference games before completing their full slate of non-conference games.

And, speaking of those Saturday games, it would be nice if the CCIW powers that be insisted on some conformity within the conference with regard to game time. Why does Elmhurst insist on playing their Sat games at 4:00 when everybody else plays at 7:00? I doubt its for any religious based reason which would be a valid deviation. It just seems like the entire conference should follow the same procedures, including being on the same schedule. Sorry EC fans. JMHO. 

[bbfan44]

I expect NCC to be competing for a National Title next year. Don't think I'm being too optimistic on that front. Need to replace Moten, but otherwise they're pretty stacked.

Jayme Moten will indeed leave large shoes to be filled for NCC next season. In 2014-2015 he set the all time NCC single season record for 3 pointers, led the conference in 3 pointers made, and finished 5th in scoring. As a result, it was anticipated that he would likely be one of the conference leaders in scoring again this season. However, when the need arose for someone to step into the position of being the man to most often defend the opponent's most dangerous guard, Jayme willingly epitomized the T in team, and stepped up to this position at the expense of some of his scoring capabilities. An often explosive scorer who also developed into a top notch on the ball defender.

However, Jayme's loss is only half the story as far as what NCC needs to find a replacement for next season. They also lose Kevin Honn, 3rd on the team in both scoring and rebounding while coming off the bench as the team's 6th man. Playing an average of only 21 minutes a game, Kevin finished 20th in league scoring, 13th in rebounds, and 6th in FG percentage. Down the stretch, he averaged 13.6 while shooting 63.6% from the floor over the last 10 games. Another big pair of shoes to fill.

I agree that Honn is a loss, but I think that will be more than made up for by the improvement of the kids. I'm more worried about Moten's departure.

For what it is worth, I thought the play of Kevin Honn off the bench a very big part of North Central success.  Yes, NCC starters very good but without the bench contribution tough to win the in the latter part of the season as the competition continues to improve.

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[Gregory Sager]

I expect NCC to be competing for a National Title next year. Don't think I'm being too optimistic on that front. Need to replace Moten, but otherwise they're pretty stacked.

Jayme Moten will indeed leave large shoes to be filled for NCC next season. In 2014-2015 he set the all time NCC single season record for 3 pointers, led the conference in 3 pointers made, and finished 5th in scoring. As a result, it was anticipated that he would likely be one of the conference leaders in scoring again this season. However, when the need arose for someone to step into the position of being the man to most often defend the opponent's most dangerous guard, Jayme willingly epitomized the T in team, and stepped up to this position at the expense of some of his scoring capabilities. An often explosive scorer who also developed into a top notch on the ball defender.

However, Jayme's loss is only half the story as far as what NCC needs to find a replacement for next season. They also lose Kevin Honn, 3rd on the team in both scoring and rebounding while coming off the bench as the team's 6th man. Playing an average of only 21 minutes a game, Kevin finished 20th in league scoring, 13th in rebounds, and 6th in FG percentage. Down the stretch, he averaged 13.6 while shooting 63.6% from the floor over the last 10 games. Another big pair of shoes to fill.

I agree that Honn is a loss, but I think that will be more than made up for by the improvement of the kids. I'm more worried about Moten's departure.

For what it is worth, I thought the play of Kevin Honn off the bench a very big part of North Central success.  Yes, NCC starters very good but without the bench contribution tough to win the in the latter part of the season as the competition continues to improve.

I think that you can make a valid argument that, on balance, Kevin Honn was NCC's most productive player in the month of February.

Haven't heard anything about the possibility of the tournament being expanded (maybe #4 and #5 having a play-in game). The talk seems centered on how the extra two conference games will be scheduled. Looks like at least two, and possibly three, conference games in December. It's possible some teams will be playing conference games before completing their full slate of non-conference games.

Some will play two, some will play three. The new CCIW schedule is built around giving all nine teams an equal number of home Saturday dates. The two or three December games will be played early in the month (Saturday, Dec. 3, Wednesday, Dec. 7, and Saturday, Dec. 10, IIRC), so, naturally, everybody will be playing conference games before completing their full slate of non-conference games.

And, speaking of those Saturday games, it would be nice if the CCIW powers that be insisted on some conformity within the conference with regard to game time. Why does Elmhurst insist on playing their Sat games at 4:00 when everybody else plays at 7:00? I doubt its for any religious based reason which would be a valid deviation. It just seems like the entire conference should follow the same procedures, including being on the same schedule. Sorry EC fans. JMHO. 

You're running straight into the brick wall of "that's the way we've always done it" on this one, Mark. The league has always given each school the latitude to schedule CCIW home games as they see fit (within reason). I can't remember a season when everybody's conformed to the same time format for tipoffs -- and that goes for weekday games as well as for Saturday games. (For many years my own alma mater was the outlier, as North Park weekday games always started at 8 pm while everybody else's started at 7 pm.) And Elmhurst is not the only school that's currently deviating from the norm, either. The Millikin @ Carthage game played the day after New Year's Day was a scheduled 4 pm start, too. What with Carroll now resuming its former status as the northernmost outpost of the league, coaches will most likely continue to argue that long-travel games should have the option of being scheduled for Saturday afternoons, especially since the women and men travel together and you're thus subjecting two teams to getting home in the wee hours of Sunday morning if you've got a downstate-Illinois versus Wisconsin doubleheader. (And, yeah, I don't know why that should affect Elmhurst, which is the league's most centrally-located school for travel purposes.)

[titanfan]

FWIW I kind of like elmhursts 4:00 games.  It gave me the option of watching multiple games on the same day. 

[AndOne]

titanfan-

I'm jealous of you. Evidently once 4:00 rolls around on a Saturday, you are in the enviable position of being able to devote the rest of afternoon and evening to watching basketball. No shopping, yardwork, or housework, or are you Speedy Gonzalez and able to get everything done by 4:00? 

[Augie6]

Michael Hoekstra, heavily recruited before choosing Augie, has played the equivalent of about seven games (291 minutes) in three years. I doubt that he expected to be used so sparingly and, accordingly, whether he is passing out many exuberant endorsements of the AC program. 😐

Michael Hoekstra committed to Augustana knowing that posts Ben Ryan, Tayvian Johnson, and Brandon Motzel were in the class ahead of him -- 6-5 Ryan and 6-6 Johnson started as freshmen.  I don't think it's fair to blindly suggest (without any knowledge of the situation) that 3 years later Hoekstra is upset that he's been behind those same 3 guys, and that he is not happy with the Augie basketball program. 

From a common sense standpoint, why would Daniel Hoekstra have considered Augustana so strongly if his brother was unhappy there? (And I know he did strongly consider Augie.)  So your theory doesn't seem to add up.

I'll put it more succinctly.  The comment by AO is simply a load of crap.

Yes, Augie6, it could be a load of crap unless you consider that people from the AAU circuit, who know Hoekstra very well, have said that while he indeed may have considered Augie, it was not much more than casually. Also, why would Daniel not be going to Augie if his brother's experience was that outstanding? Being an Augie fan isn't there any possibility whatsoever that you are at least a little biased here? Or, is there not any possibility that you may either be overlooking something or don't have all the facts?
Also, is the situation really much of a knock to Augie or is it more of a plus for Wesleyan?

Quite honestly, I don't give a crap about what "people on the AAU circuit" say about his brother.  Just because Michael Hoekstra goes to Augie doesn't mean that's the place that his brother Daniel wants to be at.  My brother played football at Knox when I decided to go to Augie.  It didn't have anything against Knox, in fact, I knew and liked a lot of people there and I liked the school.  I just preferred Augie.   It's wasn't a "knock" to Knox, much as I'm sure Daniel Hoekstra's decision wasn't a "knock" to Augie.  Is there a possibility that, at times, you have a tendency to pull things out of your a** to try and create controversy?  Because I think that's what you are doing here when you translate "some people on the AAU circuit said Daniel Hoekstra only had a casual interest in Augie" to his brother Michael is unhappy about his time in the Augie program.  If you want to talk about things you "know", that's fine.  Clearly, you're pulling this gem out of thin air, and I just really don't understand the point of it.   

[titanfan]

titanfan-

I'm jealous of you. Evidently once 4:00 rolls around on a Saturday, you are in the enviable position of being able to devote the rest of afternoon and evening to watching basketball. No shopping, yardwork, or housework, or are you Speedy Gonzalez and able to get everything done by 4:00? 

You should be.  I'm living the dream. 

[AndOne]

Michael Hoekstra, heavily recruited before choosing Augie, has played the equivalent of about seven games (291 minutes) in three years. I doubt that he expected to be used so sparingly and, accordingly, whether he is passing out many exuberant endorsements of the AC program. 😐

Michael Hoekstra committed to Augustana knowing that posts Ben Ryan, Tayvian Johnson, and Brandon Motzel were in the class ahead of him -- 6-5 Ryan and 6-6 Johnson started as freshmen.  I don't think it's fair to blindly suggest (without any knowledge of the situation) that 3 years later Hoekstra is upset that he's been behind those same 3 guys, and that he is not happy with the Augie basketball program. 

From a common sense standpoint, why would Daniel Hoekstra have considered Augustana so strongly if his brother was unhappy there? (And I know he did strongly consider Augie.)  So your theory doesn't seem to add up.

I'll put it more succinctly.  The comment by AO is simply a load of crap.

Yes, Augie6, it could be a load of crap unless you consider that people from the AAU circuit, who know Hoekstra very well, have said that while he indeed may have considered Augie, it was not much more than casually. Also, why would Daniel not be going to Augie if his brother's experience was that outstanding? Being an Augie fan isn't there any possibility whatsoever that you are at least a little biased here? Or, is there not any possibility that you may either be overlooking something or don't have all the facts?
Also, is the situation really much of a knock to Augie or is it more of a plus for Wesleyan?

Quite honestly, I don't give a crap about what "people on the AAU circuit" say about his brother.  Just because Michael Hoekstra goes to Augie doesn't mean that's the place that his brother Daniel wants to be at.  My brother played football at Knox when I decided to go to Augie.  It didn't have anything against Knox, in fact, I knew and liked a lot of people there and I liked the school.  I just preferred Augie.   It's wasn't a "knock" to Knox, much as I'm sure Daniel Hoekstra's decision wasn't a "knock" to Augie.  Is there a possibility that, at times, you have a tendency to pull things out of your a** to try and create controversy?  Because I think that's what you are doing here when you translate "some people on the AAU circuit said Daniel Hoekstra only had a casual interest in Augie" to his brother Michael is unhappy about his time in the Augie program.  If you want to talk about things you "know", that's fine.  Clearly, you're pulling this gem out of thin air, and I just really don't understand the point of it.

Here is what I know Augie6. There is more than one poster on this board who knows more than you and I combined, who will tell you I have access to a pretty good amount of information to the point that I don't really need to pull things out of my a** or any other part.
A 2nd thing I know is that someone who knows sports like I think you do shouldn't have a hard time understanding that almost all kids think they are going to play when they commit to a school. The tendency is to think even if others are in front of me, I may not start right away but I'm good enough to get a good share of PT sooner rather than later. Also, that a heavily recruited kid may love things academically, and may love being a part of the athletic team, but is most likely going to be pretty highly disappointed if he hasn't played more than only sparingly by the end of his junior year. As a result, it's not difficult to believe a kid in that situation isn't necessarily going to be negative, but isn't exactly going to be the most outwardly enthusiastic booster of the program. I don't know, and I didn't say, that happened in this case, but if it did, it should not be surprising to anyone. And often, parents also have the same reaction.
Lastly, for several reasons, many kids aren't going to be crazy about the idea of attending the same school as an older sibling did. Enough on this I think.

[AndOne]

Wonder if Carroll will choose to play their Sat games at 2:00 and 4:00 or 5:00 and 7:00. If they go with the earlier options, teams like Wesleyan and Millikin are going to have to leave very early as many coaches like to arrive at the home team gym 60-90 minutes prior to game time. For instance, bus time from Decatur to Waukesha is about 4 1/2 hours. Getting to Waukesha/Carroll at even 1:00 would mean an 8:30 AM departure. And that doesn't even take into account a stop for lunch. The later option would mean the Big Blue doesn't get home until sometime around 2 AM.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Wonder if Carroll will choose to play their Sat games at 2:00 and 4:00 or 5:00 and 7:00. If they go with the earlier options, teams like Wesleyan and Millikin are going to have to leave very early as many coaches like to arrive at the home team gym 60-90 minutes prior to game time. For instance, bus time from Decatur to Waukesha is about 4 1/2 hours. Getting to Waukesha/Carroll at even 1:00 would mean an 8:30 AM departure. And that doesn't even take into account a stop for lunch. The later option would mean the Big Blue doesn't get home until sometime around 2 AM.

Save the CCIW.  Ditch both Carroll and Millikin; adopt Benedictine instead.

(I'd better shut up - then IWU [and Augie] would be the outliers. )

If you think the CCIW has travel problems, check out the ASC or the NWC.

[AndOne]

Congrats to North Central Head Assistant Coach Mitch Raridon, and his beautiful bride Brianna, on the birth of their first child. Houston Todd Raridon arrived at 3:37 this afternoon.