MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

Schedules are sure going to be different moving forward...

http://www.iwusports.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=166&path=mbball

CCIW games on December 3.

Schedules are sure going to be different moving forward...

http://www.iwusports.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=166&path=mbball

CCIW games on December 3.

I always thought it was kind of weird playing 3 or 4 conference games near the beginning of the year and then waiting a month to play the rest of the games. I really liked our format last year. As you are well aware of, it was nice playing all the nonconference games prior to the new year and then starting the conference season in January. It was like a whole new season!

Don't know if there is general agreement, but I think finishing the non-conference portion of the schedule before playing any conference games is the way to go. As Greek Tragedy says, it feels like a whole new season. This worked fine with 8 conference games, but the addition of Carroll has gummed up the works, and necessitated scheduling conference games in early December, then finishing the non-con slate, and then picking up with the conference schedule in January. The situation is made even crazier by the very bizarre scheduling done by the CCIW office. For instance, NCC faces IWU in both schools first conference game on 12/3/16. Rather than playing each other again in the ninth conference game, they are not scheduled to meet for the second time until the fifteenth conference game on 2/18/17. This makes no sense.

The situation mightvbe remedied by having all the conference teams complete their non-conference schedules by mid December. However, this would limit scheduling opportunities as far as filling out schedules, and would prevent teams from going to those desired warm weather tournaments in late December. Another solution would be for the league GMs, or ADs in our case, to send one CCIW team, plus cash considerations to ease the transfer ☺️, to another league/conference. This would allow the remaining teams to return to the usual scheduling format. Depending on the team selected, it could help both that team and the remaining conference teams with travel distances and associated costs, and might especially allow the team to more realistically compete for a conference championship in their new, and likely less competitive conference.

[lmitzel]

Schedules are sure going to be different moving forward...

http://www.iwusports.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=166&path=mbball

CCIW games on December 3.

Schedules are sure going to be different moving forward...

http://www.iwusports.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=166&path=mbball

CCIW games on December 3.

I always thought it was kind of weird playing 3 or 4 conference games near the beginning of the year and then waiting a month to play the rest of the games. I really liked our format last year. As you are well aware of, it was nice playing all the nonconference games prior to the new year and then starting the conference season in January. It was like a whole new season!

Don't know if there is general agreement, but I think finishing the non-conference portion of the schedule before playing any conference games is the way to go. As Greek Tragedy says, it feels like a whole new season. This worked fine with 8 conference games, but the addition of Carroll has gummed up the works, and necessitated scheduling conference games in early December, then finishing the non-con slate, and then picking up with the conference schedule in January.

I would have to agree on that front. It kind of gave me a sense of how good every other CCIW team was before we started running through the Gauntlet, even though it was based on a fairly small sample size and I'd have to look at the opposition played to really know for sure. Of course, that kind of went out the window on the North Central front the last two years when the team went 10-1 out of the CCIW in 2014-15 and had to fight for the last tourney berth on the final day, versus going 7-4 out of conference this past season before wreaking havoc on everyone not coached by Grey Giovanine. Basketball is a weird sport.

The situation is made even crazier by the very bizarre scheduling done by the CCIW office. For instance, NCC faces IWU in both schools first conference game on 12/3/16. Rather than playing each other again in the ninth conference game, they are not scheduled to meet for the second time until the fifteenth conference game on 2/18/17. This makes no sense.

I don't really have a problem with this aspect of it. The only stipulations have been that you play everybody once in the first half, then play them again at the opposite venue the second time around. Beyond that, I don't know how they decide the order of things, but it doesn't seem like a bad thing to have a little variety the second time around.

That said, it is a little funky for NCC to be playing Wesleyan on December 3rd, then not see them again until February 18th. Just something I guess we'll have to get used to.

[Gregory Sager]

Schedules are sure going to be different moving forward...

http://www.iwusports.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=166&path=mbball

CCIW games on December 3.

I always thought it was kind of weird playing 3 or 4 conference games near the beginning of the year and then waiting a month to play the rest of the games. I really liked our format last year. As you are well aware of, it was nice playing all the nonconference games prior to the new year and then starting the conference season in January. It was like a whole new season!

Don't know if there is general agreement, but I think finishing the non-conference portion of the schedule before playing any conference games is the way to go.

Sure, it's the way to go, as long as circumstances allow it. But it's not feasible to go this way when you have other criteria that are more important.

I explained this all a month and a half ago here on CCIW Chat:

Some will play two, some will play three. The new CCIW schedule is built around giving all nine teams an equal number of home Saturday dates. The two or three December games will be played early in the month (Saturday, Dec. 3, Wednesday, Dec. 7, and Saturday, Dec. 10, IIRC), so, naturally, everybody will be playing conference games before completing their full slate of non-conference games.

I'm sure that all nine head coaches would prefer to get in each of their respective nine non-conference games before facing a CCIW foe. But, as I explained back in March, the league's priority is to make sure that everybody gets an equal number of Saturday home dates for CCIW play. That takes precedence.

As Greek Tragedy says, it feels like a whole new season. This worked fine with 8 conference games, but the addition of Carroll has gummed up the works, and necessitated scheduling conference games in early December, then finishing the non-con slate, and then picking up with the conference schedule in January.

This is not news. We've known that scheduling was going to be made more difficult ever since it was announced two years ago that Carroll was rejoining the league. Nine is much harder to schedule than eight, not only because somebody always has a bye but because it therefore adds one more team that needs to be slotted for its quota of Saturday home dates.

In the old days when this was a nine-team league (1967-68 thru 1991-92), everybody played at least one CCIW game in December (and sometimes as many as three or four, depending upon the school), in the midst of what was otherwise the non-conference schedule. But the league's scheduling was more haphazard then than it is now.

This is about equal access for all CCIW basketball players (both men and women, since CCIW women's basketball will be scheduled along the same lines), and equal access includes giving everybody the same number of Saturday home games in league play. Wednesday night games are more problematic for attendance purposes than Saturday, due to work schedules and class schedules. Giving everybody the same number of Saturday home dates ensures fairness in this regard.

The situation is made even crazier by the very bizarre scheduling done by the CCIW office. For instance, NCC faces IWU in both schools first conference game on 12/3/16. Rather than playing each other again in the ninth conference game, they are not scheduled to meet for the second time until the fifteenth conference game on 2/18/17. This makes no sense.

I'm baffled as to why you think this is "very bizarre" and "makes no sense," Mark, given that the first and second round-robins have never been symmetrical. Have you already forgotten what this past season's schedule looked like? Your Cardinals played my Vikings in the first game of the CCIW slate, the day after New Year's Day. They then met again in the last game of the CCIW slate, on February 20, thirteen games later. In 2014-15 it was even more skewed from NCC's perspective:

first round-robin
ILLINOIS WESLEYAN
@ Millikin
@ Wheaton
AUGUSTANA
ELMHURST
@ Carthage
@ North Park

second round-robin
MILLIKIN
WHEATON
@ Augustana
@ Illinois Wesleyan
CARTHAGE
@ Elmhurst
NORTH PARK

A lot of the lack of symmetry between round-robins is due to travel issues, inasmuch as the league tries to make certain lengthy trips (e.g., Millikin @ Carthage, or vice-versa) always fall on a Saturday. Given that NPU is the nearest CCIW campus to Carthage, it's easy to see why it's so rare for the Red Men and/or the Lady Reds to visit the crackerbox on a Saturday, or for the Vikings to travel up north to play at Tarble on a Saturday. Historically speaking, Saturdays have usually been the dates when Carthage plays the downstate trio. Likewise, NPU very seldom plays Millikin in men's or women's basketball on a Wednesday.

But, really, this league's never had two symmetrical round-robins that I can recall. There's always been at least one minor tweak between the first and the second. I'm not sure why you're so worked up about it now.

The situation mightvbe remedied by having all the conference teams complete their non-conference schedules by mid December. However, this would limit scheduling opportunities as far as filling out schedules, and would prevent teams from going to those desired warm weather tournaments in late December.

The snowbird trips are not an issue for everybody, as several CCIW programs no longer do them. But the general scheduling opportunities are definitely the reason why CCIW teams are going to have to play non-conference games on either side of the 12/3, 12/7, 12/10 conference dates this coming season. We've all read testimony in here (from you, among others) as to how much CCIW head coaches complain about the difficulty that they have in putting together schedules. Just imagine if they were told that they now had to have all nine of their non-conference games completed before Saturday, December 3! In other words, coaches, we not only want you to schedule your non-conference games with one hand tied behind your back, we want you to hop on one leg and bob your head up and down at the same time.

Another solution would be for the league GMs, or ADs in our case, to send one CCIW team, plus cash considerations to ease the transfer ☺️, to another league/conference. This would allow the remaining teams to return to the usual scheduling format. Depending on the team selected, it could help both that team and the remaining conference teams with travel distances and associated costs, and might especially allow the team to more realistically compete for a conference championship in their new, and likely less competitive conference.

Translation: Sayonara, Millikin, and don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out. You're really out to make sure that you don't somehow end up on Matt Nadelhoffer's Christmas card list, aren't you, Mark?

[AndOne]

Yes, sayonara to the team that has gone 24-116 over the last 10 years of CCIW conference play, and is the longest trip for most of the other conference teams. While this may seem cold at first glance, it would actually be beneficial on several fronts:
* Millikin could surely more readily compete for the championship of a lesser conference. A second benefit would be the increased chances of appearing at the big dance. 
* Depending on its new affiliation, MU might lessen the overall sum total of the hours they spend on the road. This would likely also bring some degree of $ savings.
* Many of the other remaining conference teams would no longer have to endure their longest conference road trip. Tell me that wouldn't result in a lot of 
Even if I authored a post predicting next season's conference standings, and slotted MU in the top spot, I somehow don't think I would have made Matt Nadelfoffer's Christmas card list. 

No, I haven't forgotten what this season's schedule looked like. That is precisely why I had hoped for a bit more symmetry this coming season. I can, however, understand how this might he problematic if the primary consideration is providing all teams with an equal number of Saturday night home games. 

What I do have a problem with, and feel is totally unacceptable, is the conference authorities scheduling games in such a way that a team plays its last 3 conference games on the road one year, and then is scheduled to play 4 of it's last 5 conference games on the road the very next year. Thats 7 of their last 8 conference games over two consecutive years on the road. When teams are battling for a conference championship, and for a possible national tournament spot, such inequitable scheduling places that team in a competitively disadvantageous situation.
A conference that considers itself one of the best in the nation should be able to do better. No ifs, ands, or buts accepted.

[kiko]

Yes, sayonara to the team that has gone 24-116 over the last 10 years of CCIW conference play, and is the longest trip for most of the other conference teams. While this may seem cold at first glance, it would actually be beneficial on several fronts:
* Millikin could surely more readily compete for the championship of a lesser conference. A second benefit would be the increased chances of appearing at the big dance. 
* Depending on its new affiliation, MU might lessen the overall sum total of the hours they spend on the road. This would likely also bring some degree of $ savings.
* Many of the other remaining conference teams would no longer have to endure their longest conference road trip. Tell me that wouldn't result in a lot of 
Even if I authored a post predicting next season's conference standings, and slotted MU in the top spot, I somehow don't think I would have made Matt Nadelfoffer's Christmas card list. 

No, I haven't forgotten what this season's schedule looked like. That is precisely why I had hoped for a bit more symmetry this coming season. I can, however, understand how this might he problematic if the primary consideration is providing all teams with an equal number of Saturday night home games. 

What I do have a problem with, and feel is totally unacceptable, is the conference authorities scheduling games in such a way that a team plays its last 3 conference games on the road one year, and then is scheduled to play 4 of it's last 5 conference games on the road the very next year. Thats 7 of their last 8 conference games over two consecutive years on the road. When teams are battling for a conference championship, and for a possible national tournament spot, such inequitable scheduling places that team in a competitively disadvantageous situation.
A conference that considers itself one of the best in the nation should be able to do better. No ifs, ands, or buts accepted.

Agree with this 100%.  And my beef is not just North Central's senior night being on February 6 last year -- there are far, far too many instances of teams playing 3+ games in a row either at home or on the road at various points in the season.  I get that there will inevitably be scheduling conflicts with some of the facilities, and travel considerations for some of the more far-flung trips.  ("We *must* travel to Decatur on a Saturday, because then we can make a weekend of it!")  But even with these considerations, the scheduling was really, really poor last year, and this coming year will be no better.

Oh, and if we are exiling a league member, I vote Carroll.  They are useful for football scheduling purposes, but beyond that, they don't really add much IMO.  I was meh on the announcement when it happened and am even moreso today -- they would be about 83rd on the list of schools I would have liked to see become Engine No. 9.  But nobody asked me, so Waukesha here we come!

[lmitzel]

Yes, sayonara to the team that has gone 24-116 over the last 10 years of CCIW conference play, and is the longest trip for most of the other conference teams. While this may seem cold at first glance, it would actually be beneficial on several fronts:
* Millikin could surely more readily compete for the championship of a lesser conference. A second benefit would be the increased chances of appearing at the big dance. 
* Depending on its new affiliation, MU might lessen the overall sum total of the hours they spend on the road. This would likely also bring some degree of $ savings.
* Many of the other remaining conference teams would no longer have to endure their longest conference road trip. Tell me that wouldn't result in a lot of 
Even if I authored a post predicting next season's conference standings, and slotted MU in the top spot, I somehow don't think I would have made Matt Nadelfoffer's Christmas card list. 

No, I haven't forgotten what this season's schedule looked like. That is precisely why I had hoped for a bit more symmetry this coming season. I can, however, understand how this might he problematic if the primary consideration is providing all teams with an equal number of Saturday night home games. 

What I do have a problem with, and feel is totally unacceptable, is the conference authorities scheduling games in such a way that a team plays its last 3 conference games on the road one year, and then is scheduled to play 4 of it's last 5 conference games on the road the very next year. Thats 7 of their last 8 conference games over two consecutive years on the road. When teams are battling for a conference championship, and for a possible national tournament spot, such inequitable scheduling places that team in a competitively disadvantageous situation.
A conference that considers itself one of the best in the nation should be able to do better. No ifs, ands, or buts accepted.

Agree with this 100%.  And my beef is not just North Central's senior night being on February 6 last year -- there are far, far too many instances of teams playing 3+ games in a row either at home or on the road at various points in the season.  I get that there will inevitably be scheduling conflicts with some of the facilities, and travel considerations for some of the more far-flung trips.  ("We *must* travel to Decatur on a Saturday, because then we can make a weekend of it!")  But even with these considerations, the scheduling was really, really poor last year, and this coming year will be no better.

Even though it's only been a couple months, I'd forgotten about that back end of the schedule home/road imbalance for NCC, even though I should have remembered it because I know Raridon wasn't happy about it and because it meant I was done yelling things on February 10th.

For curiosity's sake, I went back and looked at this past season's schedule. Six of the eight schools had a three game road trip in conference (North Park and Augie didn't), and North Central was the only one with two. Flipping it around, five of the eight had at least a three game home stand, with North Park, Carthage, and Wesleyan not getting any. Wheaton actually had a four game home stand too, which seems almost unheard of in conference play. I also checked the women's side: five of the eight had a three game home stand (North Park, Elmhurst, and Millikin did not), but only half of the schools had at least one three game road trip (Carthage, Wesleyan, Millikin, and Augie twice).

It'd be one thing if everyone had to have one three game road trip and one three game home stand, but the imbalance is kind of jarring to actually look at. Counterbalancing that with travel times, equal number of Saturday home dates, and whatever other quirks are involved I'm sure makes it tricky. NCC at least had a good balance on the Wednesdays (men/women alternating for three weeks straight) but working the first Saturday, skipping two, working the next three, then being done wasn't the most ideal scenario.

NCC hasn't released either of their schedules yet, though they usually don't for another month or two I think. Hopefully there's some semblance of balance there this year.

[AndOne]

As far as NCC not "releasing" it's schedule yet............
According to the info I was able to come up with, NCC's last 5 conference games for 2016-2017 are tentatively scheduled as follows:

Sat., 2/4--AT North Park
Wed., 2/8--AT Augie
Sat., 2/11--ELMHURST
Wed., 2/15--AT Carthage
Sat., 2/18--AT IWU

Thats 4 of the last 5 on the road. 🔩

[lmitzel]

As far as NCC not "releasing" it's schedule yet............
According to the info I was able to come up with, NCC's last 5 conference games for 2016-2017 are tentatively scheduled as follows:

Sat., 2/4--AT North Park
Wed., 2/8--AT Augie
Sat., 2/11--ELMHURST
Wed., 2/15--AT Carthage
Sat., 2/18--AT IWU

Thats 4 of the last 5 on the road. 🔩

And glancing at the other tentative schedules available, the most any other team has to play on the road in that same stretch is three.

Part of me wants to play devil's advocate and say that because everyone's schedule is virtually the same on the whole, the order doesn't really matter. But when, like AndOne said, you three straight on the road to close out one year and tentatively four of five on the road to close out the next... I can see why Coach Raridon had serious issues with the scheduling last year and probably does again.

[Augie6]

Yes, sayonara to the team that has gone 24-116 over the last 10 years of CCIW conference play, and is the longest trip for most of the other conference teams. While this may seem cold at first glance, it would actually be beneficial on several fronts:
* Millikin could surely more readily compete for the championship of a lesser conference. A second benefit would be the increased chances of appearing at the big dance. 
* Depending on its new affiliation, MU might lessen the overall sum total of the hours they spend on the road. This would likely also bring some degree of $ savings.
* Many of the other remaining conference teams would no longer have to endure their longest conference road trip. Tell me that wouldn't result in a lot of 
Even if I authored a post predicting next season's conference standings, and slotted MU in the top spot, I somehow don't think I would have made Matt Nadelfoffer's Christmas card list. 

No, I haven't forgotten what this season's schedule looked like. That is precisely why I had hoped for a bit more symmetry this coming season. I can, however, understand how this might he problematic if the primary consideration is providing all teams with an equal number of Saturday night home games. 

What I do have a problem with, and feel is totally unacceptable, is the conference authorities scheduling games in such a way that a team plays its last 3 conference games on the road one year, and then is scheduled to play 4 of it's last 5 conference games on the road the very next year. Thats 7 of their last 8 conference games over two consecutive years on the road. When teams are battling for a conference championship, and for a possible national tournament spot, such inequitable scheduling places that team in a competitively disadvantageous situation.
A conference that considers itself one of the best in the nation should be able to do better. No ifs, ands, or buts accepted.

Agree with this 100%.  And my beef is not just North Central's senior night being on February 6 last year -- there are far, far too many instances of teams playing 3+ games in a row either at home or on the road at various points in the season.  I get that there will inevitably be scheduling conflicts with some of the facilities, and travel considerations for some of the more far-flung trips.  ("We *must* travel to Decatur on a Saturday, because then we can make a weekend of it!")  But even with these considerations, the scheduling was really, really poor last year, and this coming year will be no better.

Even though it's only been a couple months, I'd forgotten about that back end of the schedule home/road imbalance for NCC, even though I should have remembered it because I know Raridon wasn't happy about it and because it meant I was done yelling things on February 10th.

For curiosity's sake, I went back and looked at this past season's schedule. Six of the eight schools had a three game road trip in conference (North Park and Augie didn't), and North Central was the only one with two. Flipping it around, five of the eight had at least a three game home stand, with North Park, Carthage, and Wesleyan not getting any. Wheaton actually had a four game home stand too, which seems almost unheard of in conference play. I also checked the women's side: five of the eight had a three game home stand (North Park, Elmhurst, and Millikin did not), but only half of the schools had at least one three game road trip (Carthage, Wesleyan, Millikin, and Augie twice).

It'd be one thing if everyone had to have one three game road trip and one three game home stand, but the imbalance is kind of jarring to actually look at. Counterbalancing that with travel times, equal number of Saturday home dates, and whatever other quirks are involved I'm sure makes it tricky. NCC at least had a good balance on the Wednesdays (men/women alternating for three weeks straight) but working the first Saturday, skipping two, working the next three, then being done wasn't the most ideal scenario.

NCC hasn't released either of their schedules yet, though they usually don't for another month or two I think. Hopefully there's some semblance of balance there this year.

This is not uncommon.  I went back and looked at Augie's schedule over the past few seasons and compared it with NCC's, with the following results:

AUGIE
2010-11  -  Last 4 CCIW games on the road
2011-12  -  4 of last 5 CCIW games on the road
2012-13  -  Played 3 CCIW road games in a row, early in the season
2013-14  -  Played 3 CCIW road games in a row in the middle of the season
2014-15  -  4 of last 5 CCIW games on the road (3 in a row away from home)
2015-16  -  First time in 5 seasons that they didn't have 3 in a row on the road, but did play 4 of 5 conference games on the road early in the CCIW season.

NCC
2010-11  -  Did not play more than 2 CCIW road games in a row
2011-12  -  Did not play more than 2 CCIW road games in a row
2012-13  -  Played 3 CCIW road games in a row in the middle of the season
2013-14  -  Played 3 CCIW road games in a row in the middle of the season
2014-15  -  Did not play more than 2 CCIW road games in a row
2015-16  -  Played 3 CCIW road games in a row (twice during the season)


I don't plan on taking the time to look up other teams to see if this is similar, but I'm guessing it would be.  As you can see from the info above, the points you are bringing up aren't necessarily a new issue and NCC hasn't had it as bad as Augie when you compare the two over the past six seasons.  Personally, I don't think it's that big of deal.

[badgerwarhawk]

If you play multiple conference road games to end a season wouldn't there be a point in the schedule when you were playing multiple home games consecutively?  I know multiple road games are difficult particularly at the end of the season when there's been team wear and tear.  But there's also a point in which a team can take advantage of the home portion of the schedule. It would be nice if scheduling were one home, one away, repeat but that just isn't possible when you take all of the factors involved in arranging a schedule.   

[AndOne]

* In a highly competitive conference, such as the CCIW, which often features up to 3 superior teams, titles are most often won down the stretch.
* I believe this is also the time of the season when the cumulative effects of many factors such as season long wear and tear, injuries, travel, and possibly even classwork can combine to negatively impact performance.
* Factor in the added obstacle  of having to overcome a home court advantage, and it certainly seems that ample evidence exists to say that forcing a team to play 4 of it"s last 5 conference games on the road puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

Make sense or not?

[badgerwarhawk]

Yes, I understand your points and they do make sense.  I doubt there's a coach in the world who looks forward to that stretch to end a season or any other point in the season for that matter.   I know our staff wouldn't.  It's clearly not favorable.  I guess the trick is to take care of business during the favorable portion of your schedule so you can survive a hic up or two.   

Wouldn't the opponents also have essentially the same potential for factors that would negatively impact performance? 

[matblake]

Wheaton is heading to Israel and Palestine.
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2016/5/10/the-thunder-mens-basketball-team-travels.aspx

[AndOne]

Wheaton is heading to Israel and Palestine.
http://athletics.wheaton.edu/news/2016/5/10/the-thunder-mens-basketball-team-travels.aspx

Safe journeys.

[AndOne]

* In a highly competitive conference, such as the CCIW, which often features up to 3 superior teams, titles are most often won down the stretch.
* I believe this is also the time of the season when the cumulative effects of many factors such as season long wear and tear, injuries, travel, and possibly even classwork can combine to negatively impact performance.
* Factor in the added obstacle  of having to overcome a home court advantage, and it certainly seems that ample evidence exists to say that forcing a team to play 4 of it"s last 5 conference games on the road puts them at a competitive disadvantage.

Make sense or not?

Yes, I understand your points and they do make sense.  I doubt there's a coach in the world who looks forward to that stretch to end a season or any other point in the season for that matter.   I know our staff wouldn't.  It's clearly not favorable.  I guess the trick is to take care of business during the favorable portion of your schedule so you can survive a hic up or two.   

Wouldn't the opponents also have essentially the same potential for factors that would negatively impact performance?

As far as things like season long wear and tear, injuries, and class work, yes, I do believe the factors would essentially be the same. However, the home teams would not have the disadvantage of all the road trips and the negative aspects included therein cramed into the last approx. 1/3 of the season.

The major disadvantage of all the late season travel, especially during the portion of the season when fan interest is usually at its zenith, is the home court advantage/crowd support the host team enjoys. In their study and published report Scorecasting, professors Moskowitz and Wertheim of the University of Chicago found that, of the four major sports in the US,  home basketball teams enjoy the biggest advantage, winning 62.7% of the time compared to 59.0% for hockey, 57.6% for football, and 54.1% for baseball.
Accordingly, playing 4 of the last 5 on the road puts a team at a distinct competitive disadvantage, and should be remedied.
The defense rests.