MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[petemcb]

If there's been talk of this on the board this summer then i missed it.  Has anyone heard anything about who might be participating in a summer league this year? 

[AndOne]

If there's been talk of this on the board this summer then i missed it.  Has anyone heard anything about who might be participating in a summer league this year?

As with the past couple of summers, several area teams have recently begun getting together for summer "league." Many of the teams who have been doing this for the last 2-3 summers used to play in the Deerfield Summer League at the Joy of the Game facility for several years. However, the quality of the officiating there had been declining for several years and had reached the point where the games more closely resembled football scrimmages. On top of that, the facility's new owners raised the team entry fee a couple of times. With the poor officiating, the high cost, and the long drive for many of the players, it got to the point of not being worth it. That's when the kids basically formed their own "league" with most of the games being played at Benedictine and Elmhurst with no fees, and the kids calling their own fouls. Its basically an open gym concept. Depending on how many show up from each school on any given night you often have mixed teams composed of players from different schools.

I really haven't gotten into it yet this summer, but so far this summer, games that I know of have been played at IL Tech, Trinity Int'l and Benedictine. I'm pretty sure Elmhurst will also be in the picture. I went over to BU at 6:00 Mon night. Full teams there were from North Central, Elmhurst, Loras, and BU. I think there may have been a player or two from one or two other schools as well, but they didn't have school shirts on so I couldn't tell. I understand games are Monday, Wednesday, and sometimes on Sunday. I don't believe start times are always the same. I will check with the NCC guys as far as an established schedule is concerned.

[petemcb]

If there's been talk of this on the board this summer then i missed it.  Has anyone heard anything about who might be participating in a summer league this year?

As with the past couple of summers, several area teams have recently begun getting together for summer "league." Many of the teams who have been doing this for the last 2-3 summers used to play in the Deerfield Summer League at the Joy of the Game facility for several years. However, the quality of the officiating there had been declining for several years and had reached the point where the games more closely resembled football scrimmages. On top of that, the facility's new owners raised the team entry fee a couple of times. With the poor officiating, the high cost, and the long drive for many of the players, it got to the point of not being worth it. That's when the kids basically formed their own "league" with most of the games being played at Benedictine and Elmhurst with no fees, and the kids calling their own fouls. Its basically an open gym concept. Depending on how many show up from each school on any given night you often have mixed teams composed of players from different schools.

I really haven't gotten into it yet this summer, but so far this summer, games that I know of have been played at IL Tech, Trinity Int'l and Benedictine. I'm pretty sure Elmhurst will also be in the picture. I went over to BU at 6:00 Mon night. Full teams there were from North Central, Elmhurst, Loras, and BU. I think there may have been a player or two from one or two other schools as well, but they didn't have school shirts on so I couldn't tell. I understand games are Monday, Wednesday, and sometimes on Sunday. I don't believe start times are always the same. I will check with the NCC guys as far as an established schedule is concerned.

Much appreciated, Mark. Do they start around 7:00 maybe?

[petemcb]

And as I reread that, it sounds like the location varies along with the start time. They're not making it easy on us.

[petemcb]

This just popped up on the WIAC board:  http://www.stevenspointjournal.com/story/sports/college/2016/06/16/uwsp-mens-basketball-broke-ncaa-rules/85868574/

[Gregory Sager]

If there's been talk of this on the board this summer then i missed it.  Has anyone heard anything about who might be participating in a summer league this year?

NPU's got a team in the league at DePaul Prep that John Hodel is running. NPU used to play in his league every summer when he held it at the Broadway Armory, but he's changed locations. Jim Oboikowich, Adam Dauksas, and a bunch of other CCIW alumni who live in the area used to have a team in Hodel's league, too. I don't know if they still do.

This just popped up on the WIAC board:  http://www.stevenspointjournal.com/story/sports/college/2016/06/16/uwsp-mens-basketball-broke-ncaa-rules/85868574/

Doesn't sound as though UWSP thinks it's very serious. We'll see if Indianapolis agrees.

[markerickson]

The other day the North Park alumni quarterly arrived; its focus is on the timeline since North Park was founded 125 years ago.  I have two issues.

1.  Under "TOP TEAM", the publication states, "In 1988 the women's basketball team wins the CCIW championship, a first for any North Park sport.  The team goes on to compete in the NCAA tournament."  Didn't the mens basketball program win a conference championship or two before 1988?  Did a Bosko-led baseball team ever win a conference championship?  I think the wrestling team did.

2.  The postseason slights against Juwan Henry continue.  In the section regarding participants who received all-conference honors, the publication lists soccer, volleyball, tennis, track, softball, and basketball student athletes.  In the bball entry, only Liz Rehberger is listed.  No mention of Juwan Henry!  Uff da!!

I found the following amusing.  NPC played its first football game in 1899, but ended the athletics program in 1903 because athletics were deemed '"offensive to Christians.'"  Football returned to NPC in 1934.  In the interim, my alma mater disbanded womens athletics in 1929 as competition was deemed '"unladylike."'  Womens teams returned to varsity status in 1955.

UWSP has no excuses.  The AD didn't see the organized practices?  How many gyms does the school have?  Didn't the womens bball coach happen upon an out-of-season practice?  It will be interesting to see what action the NCAA takes, if any, against UWSP.  In this connection, the NCAA is still twiddling its thumbs on what to do with the decade (decades? I can't remember) long academic scandal at the University of North Carolina where thousands of students took phantom classes in the African-American studies program and received top grades.  Typical beneficiary was a football and basketball player.

[GoPerry]

The higher standards shouldn't be a recruiting excuse, because I don't think that Wheaton's specific requirements do in fact "make it tougher on recruiting" when you consider the entire picture. Yes, the profile of the high-school senior that Wheaton seeks is narrower than the profile sought by the other eight CCIW schools, but none of the other CCIW schools comes even remotely close to enjoying the national visibility that Wheaton has. Wheaton College is a household name among American evangelicals -- a very positive household name -- and that fact has been true for generations.

I have to agree with this...Wheaton is nationally and internationally very well known.

. . . Yes- among certain types of american evangelical christians, a demographic that is shrinking according to Pew research.  But even this diminishes as you go further out to either coast or into the south/Texas.

It's more well known nationally than the other schools in the league.  But it's nothing like Wash U or practically any of the UAA schools. ( I don't think you meant to imply this either, but I'm trying to identify context and degree).

The higher standards shouldn't be a recruiting excuse, because I don't think that Wheaton's specific requirements do in fact "make it tougher on recruiting" when you consider the entire picture. Yes, the profile of the high-school senior that Wheaton seeks is narrower than the profile sought by the other eight CCIW schools, but none of the other CCIW schools comes even remotely close to enjoying the national visibility that Wheaton has. Wheaton College is a household name among American evangelicals -- a very positive household name -- and that fact has been true for generations. The number of colleges and universities in D3 that enjoy Wheaton's national name recognition can be counted on two hands. In terms of being a recognizable brand across America, Wheaton's matched by a few UAA schools, a few NESCAC schools, Johns Hopkins (due to the medical school), and that's about it.

I don't think that it's easier for Wheaton to recruit student-athletes than it is for other CCIW schools, and I don't think that it's harder, either. It's just different.

Lastly, FWIW, and I realize many WC fans will probably not concur, I agree Wheaton enjoys a very visible national reputation within the evangelical community. And that, because of that degree of visibility and distinguished reputation, the Wheaton recruiting profile casts a wide net that results in their recruiting goals being no more difficult to achieve than any other CCIW member. 

No question.  Wheaton has a specific product to sell and a large population of potential buyers who find that product attractive.  I would say they have a general recruiting advantage over the CCIW average.

Yes, the Wheaton product is definitely unique, not just regionally but nationally.  And yes Wheaton might represent the 'sweet spot' for certain students.  And it is true that Wheaton enjoys more national recognition (see post above). But I think you guys are over-estimating the national name recognition component as it pertains to the student applicant pool in general which trickles down to the student-athlete applicant pool.
One might think that with such a national profile and higher academic standard that Wheaton's selectivity would be reflected in a lower admissions rate.  But the fact of the matter is that WCs admissions rate is nearly 70% ( I think only Carthage is higher) which reflects the significantly smaller completed & submitted # of applications that Wheaton receives annually than all other CCIW schools.  So would it not stand to reason that WC is also starting with a smaller potential athletics recruit pool to begin with?  I think it's a significant challenge to overcome.

True, there will be some application overlap in the other CCIW schools(student applies to Augie, IWU, and NCC) that would not be applicable to Wheaton.  And you are right that Wheaton is not competing with the other schools in the league in their recruiting.  Those are certainly mitigating factors.  But beginning with a lower # at the outset, and having to go all over the country to find them and/or rely heavily on referrals, represents a  serious challenge in my mind.  I would respectfully disagree that WC has any advantage and could argue the opposite is true.

[AndOne]

Go,

If a non-evangelical student-athlete wants to go to college and play a sport, he has a multitude of choices to begin, and still likely has several choices after he narrows those choices to either a certain region, type of school, or even to the conference level. I don't know how many colleges across the country subscribe to the same religious philosophy as Wheaton, but I am sure the number can't be classified as multitudinous. Therefore, an evangelical kid has fewer choices which means a school like Wheaton initially has less competition for a kid. Also, as you yourself indicated, WC enjoys a strong national reputation within the community.

Given these facts, it seems to me that the smaller number of Wheaton type schools to begin with, plus Wheaton's top reputation within that relatively small number, combine to actually make Wheaton a very attractive choice. So much so, I would think that often times kids actually recruit themselves TO Wheaton, rather than Wheaton having to always go out searching and competing for their services. Accordingly, I would respectfully submit that while WC certainly doesn't always have an advantage when it comes to recruiting, such is often the case.  JMHO.

[AndOne]

If there's been talk of this on the board this summer then i missed it.  Has anyone heard anything about who might be participating in a summer league this year?

NPU's got a team in the league at DePaul Prep that John Hodel is running. NPU used to play in his league every summer when he held it at the Broadway Armory, but he's changed locations. Jim Oboikowich, Adam Dauksas, and a bunch of other CCIW alumni who live in the area used to have a team in Hodel's league, too. I don't know if they still do.

In addition to the  Hodel league, NPU would sometimes also play in Deerfield. Other CCIW teams that played in Deerfield but that aren't participating in the open gym format were Augustana, and Carthage which always had at least two teams in Deerfield, and often three. Wisconsin schools Lawrence and St. Norbert also fielded teams in Deerfield which unfortunately just got too expensive and too football like on top of the already long distance many kids had to navigate.

[izzy stradlin]

The higher standards shouldn't be a recruiting excuse, because I don't think that Wheaton's specific requirements do in fact "make it tougher on recruiting" when you consider the entire picture. Yes, the profile of the high-school senior that Wheaton seeks is narrower than the profile sought by the other eight CCIW schools, but none of the other CCIW schools comes even remotely close to enjoying the national visibility that Wheaton has. Wheaton College is a household name among American evangelicals -- a very positive household name -- and that fact has been true for generations.

I have to agree with this...Wheaton is nationally and internationally very well known.

. . . Yes- among certain types of american evangelical christians, a demographic that is shrinking according to Pew research.  But even this diminishes as you go further out to either coast or into the south/Texas.

It's more well known nationally than the other schools in the league.  But it's nothing like Wash U or practically any of the UAA schools. ( I don't think you meant to imply this either, but I'm trying to identify context and degree).

The higher standards shouldn't be a recruiting excuse, because I don't think that Wheaton's specific requirements do in fact "make it tougher on recruiting" when you consider the entire picture. Yes, the profile of the high-school senior that Wheaton seeks is narrower than the profile sought by the other eight CCIW schools, but none of the other CCIW schools comes even remotely close to enjoying the national visibility that Wheaton has. Wheaton College is a household name among American evangelicals -- a very positive household name -- and that fact has been true for generations. The number of colleges and universities in D3 that enjoy Wheaton's national name recognition can be counted on two hands. In terms of being a recognizable brand across America, Wheaton's matched by a few UAA schools, a few NESCAC schools, Johns Hopkins (due to the medical school), and that's about it.

I don't think that it's easier for Wheaton to recruit student-athletes than it is for other CCIW schools, and I don't think that it's harder, either. It's just different.

Lastly, FWIW, and I realize many WC fans will probably not concur, I agree Wheaton enjoys a very visible national reputation within the evangelical community. And that, because of that degree of visibility and distinguished reputation, the Wheaton recruiting profile casts a wide net that results in their recruiting goals being no more difficult to achieve than any other CCIW member. 

No question.  Wheaton has a specific product to sell and a large population of potential buyers who find that product attractive.  I would say they have a general recruiting advantage over the CCIW average.

Yes, the Wheaton product is definitely unique, not just regionally but nationally.  And yes Wheaton might represent the 'sweet spot' for certain students.  And it is true that Wheaton enjoys more national recognition (see post above). But I think you guys are over-estimating the national name recognition component as it pertains to the student applicant pool in general which trickles down to the student-athlete applicant pool.
One might think that with such a national profile and higher academic standard that Wheaton's selectivity would be reflected in a lower admissions rate.  But the fact of the matter is that WCs admissions rate is nearly 70% ( I think only Carthage is higher) which reflects the significantly smaller completed & submitted # of applications that Wheaton receives annually than all other CCIW schools.  So would it not stand to reason that WC is also starting with a smaller potential athletics recruit pool to begin with?  I think it's a significant challenge to overcome.

True, there will be some application overlap in the other CCIW schools(student applies to Augie, IWU, and NCC) that would not be applicable to Wheaton.  And you are right that Wheaton is not competing with the other schools in the league in their recruiting.  Those are certainly mitigating factors.  But beginning with a lower # at the outset, and having to go all over the country to find them and/or rely heavily on referrals, represents a  serious challenge in my mind. I would respectfully disagree that WC has any advantage and could argue the opposite is true.

Wow, you're off here.  Let's just look at the evidence: Wheaton wins. Greg has a good sense of all CCIW athletics and might me able to clarify but I would conservatively guess Wheaton is in the top 2-3 in all-sports winning percentage over the last 20 years. Spring sports like baseball used to be the only issue but that was because until the mid-2000s they were paying a state farm agent and then a grad student a few bucks part-time to be the head coach. 

Does Wheaton win because their coaching staffs are just that good??? This must be your explanation?  There have definitely been a few special coaching talents at Wheaton (Bean, Swider, Nelson come to mind) but there are great coaches throughout the conference. North Central has hired two program-changing coaches recently in John Thorne and Todd Raridon.  I think Matt Nadelhoffer is a good coach and would be very successful at a Wheaton or Illinois Wesleyan.  I think Tim Rucks was an excellent football coach who had a losing record in the CCIW.  This a competitive division 3 conference that is full of good coaches and if you take the average over the last 20 years of all of the different sports it's a wash.

Wheaton wins in general because they have an appealing product to sell and it has obviously given them an advantage.

[izzy stradlin]

Go,

If a non-evangelical student-athlete wants to go to college and play a sport, he has a multitude of choices to begin, and still likely has several choices after he narrows those choices to either a certain region, type of school, or even to the conference level. I don't know how many colleges across the country subscribe to the same religious philosophy as Wheaton, but I am sure the number can't be classified as multitudinous. Therefore, an evangelical kid has fewer choices which means a school like WC has less competition for a kid. Also, as you yourself indicated, WC enjoys a strong national reputation within the community.

Given these facts, it seems to me that the smaller number of Wheaton type schools to begin with,plus Wheaton's top reputation within that relatively small number, combine to actually make Wheaton a very attractive choice. So much so, I would think that often times kids actually recruit themselves TO Wheaton, rather than Wheaton having to always go out searching and competiting for their services. Accordingly, I would respectfully submit that WC does indeed often, not always, have an advantage when it comes to recruiting.  JMHO.

What you're getting at is very true.  Wheaton is just unique.  While Wheaton's visibility or national reputation within a community do help and there are athletes who recruit themselves, I think a decent number of the stand-out players did not and some hadn't heard of Wheaton.  But when a coach travels and talks to a kid in Texas who had never heard of Wheaton, that coach can sell a very unique school and there is a large population who find that idea of an experience appealing-- even if they're didn't know it existed. 

[Gregory Sager]

If there's been talk of this on the board this summer then i missed it.  Has anyone heard anything about who might be participating in a summer league this year?

NPU's got a team in the league at DePaul Prep that John Hodel is running. NPU used to play in his league every summer when he held it at the Broadway Armory, but he's changed locations. Jim Oboikowich, Adam Dauksas, and a bunch of other CCIW alumni who live in the area used to have a team in Hodel's league, too. I don't know if they still do.

In addition to the  Hodel league, NPU would sometimes also play in Deerfield.

It did back in the last decade, but I think that North Park declined to participate in the Deerfield league for the last several years of its existence. John Hodel's Armory league was far more geographically convenient for the NPU players who are from this area. Plus, the competition featured a lot of ex-D1 and ex-D2 ballplayers who live in the city, and the games in John's league were worked by his fellow certified college officials. Considering that you describe the Joy of the Game league up in Deerfield as being whistle-free mayhem, the presence of college refs at the Armory was probably another selling point for NPU players (who run their own team during the off-season, since the NCAA forbids coaches from doing it).

[AndOne]

Greg,

If I remember correctly, back when several teams first witched to the Deerfield League from the league several conference teams participated in at the Des Plaines Park District, NPU was at least a fairly regular participant. Then they were absent for a few years, but returned at least once, possibly twice during the last 4 years or so that everyone played in Deerfield. For all I know the Deerfield JOG League is still going and Augie and Carthage might still be playing there.

The last 2 years in Deerfield much more closely resembled football or rugby than basketball. The refs, who I strongly suspect were friends and/or family members of the owners in many cases, often stood at half court most of the game, and might take two or three steps over the center line depending on which end of the court play was in at the time. In order for a foul to be called you would basically have to tackle your man. Nonsense for the money the kids were paying.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg,

If I remember correctly, back when several teams first witched to the Deerfield League from the league several conference teams participated in at the Des Plaines Park District, NPU was at least a fairly regular participant. Then they were absent for a few years, but returned at least once, possibly twice during the last 4 years or so that everyone played in Deerfield.

I'm pretty sure that the last time NPU was up at Deerfield was the summer that Malcom Kelly played with the Vikings, leading to some speculation here on CCIW Chat that he was (to paraphrase LeBron James) going to take his talents to the North Branch of the Chicago River and join the North Park Vikings, speculation that led Malcom to post here in order to quash it. That was back in July of 2011:

Just wanted to clarify a few rumors going around on this web page, the only reason I played for North Park is because they needed a player and I know what its like to drive all the way to deerfield and not get a game in. I'm trying to get as much basketball in as I can before we start our season over at CARTHAGE. I would have never played with NP if it was going to cause some confusion. With that being said I'm excited about my next 2 years at Carthage.. I have the best coaching staff and would never want to play for anyone esle. Bosko, Roehl,McDaniel,Mr.Wilson, Ashley, Perrine.

Thanks, Kelly 13'