MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Elmhurst made it a Meat Loaf day for the CCIW by taking down Alma, 104-96, over on the other side of the lake. Jalen Loving had a 22 and 11 double-double, while Caleb Mowry continued his hot start to the season with 21 and 8. Derek Dotlich scored 14 off the bench for the 'jays, while  Ryan Patton and Nathan Rogers each had 12. Alma was without its top scorer, Trevor Gernaat, who was a DNP due to illness, while a couple of other Scots starters saw their minutes curtailed either for injury or for some undisclosed reason. The Scots apparently spent a lot of time in this game with five freshmen on the floor.

BTW, the unofficial word I've heard on Elmhurst freshman PG Jake Rhode is that he tore his ACL in the second game of the season, the injury that Hopefan saw.

[Gregory Sager]

The CCIW is now 27-11 (.711).

Tuesday's games
Calvin (1-3) @ Carthage (3-1)
Millikin (0-4) @ Earlham (2-2)
UW-Platteville (4-1) @ North Central (3-0)

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

But IWU has also proven that maybe they are better than expected

IWU was picked 2nd in the CCIW (behind North Central) - so the Titans came in expected to be a good team.  I'd say through 5 games IWU has played like a CCIW contender, as expected.

Yes - but you even admitted earlier that IWU not getting votes in the Preseason Top 25 probably wasn't that surprising. Thus, my comment that they might be better than expected. I think the top of a lot of conferences last season and this season are down, CCIW would be part of that. Considering where Augustana and Elmhurst where and are now, that leads to the idea that the top of the CCIW is down. North Central is certainly good, but IWU being picked number two (and I won't get into coaches polls in the preseason which are more massaged than the D3hoops.com Top 25) doesn't necessarily indicate a Top 25 team this season - this season. Maybe they are... but based on the information in the preseason even you could see why they didn't get any votes - that was my point to their performance to start.

[Titan Q]

Yes - but you even admitted earlier that IWU not getting votes in the Preseason Top 25 probably wasn't that surprising. Thus, my comment that they might be better than expected. I think the top of a lot of conferences last season and this season are down, CCIW would be part of that. Considering where Augustana and Elmhurst where and are now, that leads to the idea that the top of the CCIW is down. North Central is certainly good, but IWU being picked number two (and I won't get into coaches polls in the preseason which are more massaged than the D3hoops.com Top 25) doesn't necessarily indicate a Top 25 team this season - this season. Maybe they are... but based on the information in the preseason even you could see why they didn't get any votes - that was my point to their performance to start.

I had no problem at all with IWU not being in the preseason poll.  The Titans had a bad year last year.  Here in 2016-17 IWU looks very much to me like a strong Top 25 team.

It's very early but I don't think the top of the CCIW is down.  North Central, led by a Division 2 transfer post (Sorenson) and a kid who should be at least at the Division 2 level if not higher (Raridon), is as good as any team in Division III in my opinion - I think they are very underrated at #13. In IWU, North Park, and Augustana (whatever order those 3 should be slotted at this point) I see the typical mix of talented CCIW contenders.  North Park, picked 4th, has two preseason All-Americans as you know.

I'll have to see more games across the nation but I think there is a pretty good chance the top of the CCIW is better than the top of any league in D3.

I'm not really following you on your Augustana and Elmhurst points.

[Gregory Sager]

Considering where Augustana and Elmhurst where and are now, that leads to the idea that the top of the CCIW is down.

With all due respect, D-Mac, that's static thinking. The CCIW, more than most leagues, has a lot of fluidity to it. Teams move up, teams move down. Yeah, Augie's the exception in that it's pretty much been a constant throughout the Giovanine era -- Augie's been in every CCIW tourney over the eleven years that it's been held -- but even if Augie is down from last year it might still end up being a good team by season's end. Giovanine certainly has the horses to get there, it's more a lack of experience that's holding the Rock Islanders back more than anything. Elmhurst has been the quintessential CCIW team in this millennium in that it's been up and down like a yo-yo since Y2K. Now the 'jays are trending downward, but there's always somebody else bubbling up (and I hope that that "somebody" is NPU) to take their place.

Carroll, although a subpar outfit in most sports, has a decent men's basketball team this season, and I fully expect the Pioneers to add to the league's overall strength as well.

If you're going by what Augustana and Elmhurst are doing, without considering the idea that other teams are rising up in the CCIW to fill their voids, then you're taking a shortsighted look at the way the CCIW trends.

[Titan Q]

If you're going by what Augustana and Elmhurst are doing, without considering the idea that other teams are rising up in the CCIW to fill their voids, then you're taking a shortsighted look at the way the CCIW trends.

Yes, I don't quite get that thinking.  It is a new season with new teams and new faces.  In a league that has sent 3 different teams to the Final Four in the last 4 years, and 5 different teams to the NCAA tournament in that span, that seems very shortsighted.

The top of the CCIW is different every year - that is one of the things that makes it a great league. 

[iwumichigander]

If you're going by what Augustana and Elmhurst are doing, without considering the idea that other teams are rising up in the CCIW to fill their voids, then you're taking a shortsighted look at the way the CCIW trends.

Yes, I don't quite get that thinking.  It is a new season with new teams and new faces.  In a league that has sent 3 different teams to the Final Four in the last 4 years, and 5 different teams to the NCAA tournament, that seems very shortsighted.

I'm thinking somebody has been getting grumpy looking at all the losses the Top 25 and OVR and thinking about all the work someone's has to do for next vote

Yep, we are down.  Through the weekend, three undefeated teams each with one or more W's against a preseason top 25.  Four teams with 1 loss including the afore mentioned -Augustana (pains me to defend) with 1-1 records against top 25.

[markerickson]

Glass half empty:  NPU lacks depth and height.  Glass half full:  NPU emulates the GS Warriors style at the D3 level.  Last night's victory looked the latter.  Quickly push the ball and hit the trey >.33% or hit the easy layup/close shot without relying on the mid-range jump shot.  It is quite simple - NPU will lose when the team fails to hit the trey.

Jordan Robinson is a very special player.  What I like best about him, and I saw this repeatedly last night and during his first two years at Foster and Kedzie, is his use of the pivot foot and pump fake.  And he is also a relentless rebounder.  Juwan Henry is also special in that he can create a shot from anywhere and quickly advance the rock.

What bothers me is the lack of shooters, Colin Lake aside.  If one of said two studs go down with an injury or succumb to foul trouble, then NPU is in real trouble.  I think the NPU players taller than 6'4" totaled a mere two points last night though I admit I missed most of the first half as the original website that I printed a while ago said the game started at 7pm, but the game actually started at 6pm.   

[Gregory Sager]

Glass half empty:  NPU lacks depth and height.  Glass half full:  NPU emulates the GS Warriors style at the D3 level.  Last night's victory looked the latter.  Quickly push the ball and hit the trey >.33% or hit the easy layup/close shot without relying on the mid-range jump shot.

Actually, Mark, the Vikings are quite adept at the midrange jump shot. In fact, the midrange pull-up is Juwan Henry's specialty. It's the not-so-secret weapon that nobody's ever been able to solve. Jordan Robinson's starting to take more midrange shots as well, but it's Juwan's bread and butter shot.

It is quite simple - NPU will lose when the team fails to hit the trey.

That may well be the case, although -- knock on wood -- it hasn't happened yet, so we really don't know for sure. In the past, both of NPU's two stars have shown good recognition that their outside shots aren't falling and have stepped it up in terms of attacking the basket when that happens. Of course, that reduces offensive options, and opposing coaches will quickly react by zoning or by playing off in man to facilitate collapses and help. But it can also help change the tenor of the game by forcing the other team to foul more often. I've seen Henry/Robinson NPU teams win on nights when the treys aren't falling (here and here and here, for example), but I wouldn't want to see them have to do it too often.

Jordan Robinson is a very special player.  What I like best about him, and I saw this repeatedly last night and during his first two years at Foster and Kedzie, is his use of the pivot foot and pump fake.  And he is also a relentless rebounder.

Yep. He is the master at tipping it to himself to keep the rebound alive, waiting for longer opponents to fall back to earth before finally going up and snaring it himself. He's quite reminiscent of Dennis Rodman in that regard, even though he's dispensed with the electric hair color he featured last season.

  Juwan Henry is also special in that he can create a shot from anywhere and quickly advance the rock.

What bothers me is the lack of shooters, Colin Lake aside.

NPU has other shooters, Mark. They're just not taking any shots right now, because NPU's three main guns are taking them all. Billy Kirby and Jarvis Cannon are both excellent shooters from anywhere on the floor ... and, of course, so is Joe Biko. The portion of the North Park contingent that isn't named Henry, Robinson, or Lake has only attempted a dozen treys in the first three games, making five of them for a pretty decent 42% average.

If one of said two studs go down with an injury or succumb to foul trouble, then NPU is in real trouble.

Don't even think it.

I think the NPU players taller than 6'4" totaled a mere two points last night though I admit I missed most of the first half as the original website that I printed a while ago said the game started at 7pm, but the game actually started at 6pm.

Yup. In his season debut, 6'6 Dyron Woods dropped one into the cylinder from a couple of feet out late in last night's game.

[iwumichigander]

Mark, I am voting with Sager not with standing your point about injury.  There is another factor(s) here that partially offsets height - speed, quickness and ability to drive and penetrate.  These factors, to me, is what makes NPU so difficult to defend. 
Henry and Robinson have the ability to blow by their defenders to get to the hoop or get an assist as other defenders try to collapse and stop them.  And honestly, I see NPU not as a team that lives and dies by the three .  Rather, NPU now does a much better job by using the three strategically to draw out the defense to create opportunities.
But as an opponent, you have to recognize NPU can take advantage of a hot hand to knock down threes. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

FYI - my point about being "down" was not a negative or to make it seem it the conference is below other teams or conferences. I just mean the standard that Augustana and Elmhurst set last year, Augustana set the year before, etc. may be a bit down. That doesn't mean it still isn't very, very good. I just don't think the top of the CCIW will be head and shoulders better like it has in the last few years. The middle is damn good and I have said that for years. So the top comes back to the middle a little bit (the middle probably improving as well) making for a bit different than it has been over the last few years. Again, that is not a knock on the conference... I just mean to say there isn't anyone in the conference I look at and say - damn, those teams are far better than the rest of the conference and majority of the teams out there. Now I look and say, there are very good teams, hard to gauge how good, because that upper echileon is a little bit "down" and down by past standards - not down compared to other conferences. I certainly didn't say it was down and now below the WIAC, or below the MIAA, or below the NESCAC... I just meant down a bit from where I saw it last year. Again, not a negative. I just don't think the top of the CCIW is as good as it was last year or the year before. Maybe the season will prove otherwise.

[Gregory Sager]

Mark, I am voting with Sager not with standing your point about injury.  There is another factor(s) here that partially offsets height - speed, quickness and ability to drive and penetrate.  These factors, to me, is what makes NPU so difficult to defend. 
Henry and Robinson have the ability to blow by their defenders to get to the hoop or get an assist as other defenders try to collapse and stop them.  And honestly, I see NPU not as a team that lives and dies by the three .  Rather, NPU now does a much better job by using the three strategically to draw out the defense to create opportunities.
But as an opponent, you have to recognize NPU can take advantage of a hot hand to knock down threes. 

Indeed. These are the current team trey stats:

THREE-POINT FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGES
# Team                      G     FG   FGA   Pct
--------------------------------------------
1.North Park..........  3     28     55  .509
2.Wheaton............. 4     35     89  .393
3.Illinois Wesleyan...  5     57   148  .385
4.North Central.......  3     21     56  .375
5.Carthage............. 4     31     85  .365
6.Carroll................ 5     39   110  .355
7.Elmhurst............. 5     38   108  .352
8.Augustana........... 5     29     83  .349
9.Millikin................ 4     30   101  .297

It's still early, of course, and these numbers are not going to hold up (although I certainly wish that they would ). But what's most striking about these stats, aside from NPU's gargantuan lead in shooting percentage, is the hidden stat of trey attempts per game. The Park is only attempting 18.3 treys per game, the second-fewest in the league behind Augie's 16.6, and the only other team that's even in the same ballpark is North Central (18.7). After that, you have to go all the way down to Carthage's 21.3 to find the fourth-place team in that category. As you said, the Vikings are not a team that lives and dies by the three.

But I think that the two stats are related. The Vikings are judicious in terms of their shot selection from behind the arc, but when they do take those shots they're being attempted by highly-capable three-point shooters (Lake, Henry, and Robinson), and they're typically wide-open looks that are set up for the most part by dribble penetration that turns into kickouts, by jabs and stepbacks against defenders wary of getting burned off the dribble, or by zones employed to keep Henry and Robinson from constantly parading to the rim and/or the free-throw line.

Speaking of which, congrats to Jordan Robinson upon being named CCIW POY.

[AndOne]

New poll out:

NCC up 7 from 13 to 6
IWU new at 16
AC up one from 18 to 17
NPU - ORV #39
CU - ORV #48

Complete poll:

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/week1

[Gregory Sager]

It's nice to see the CCIW getting so much love, even though the first poll of the season doesn't have much current data to back it up.

I admit to being a little surprised that Carroll got seven points in the poll while Chicago didn't get any, seeing as how both teams are 4-1 and the Maroons beat the Pioneers by 11.

[4samuy]

I'm pretty surprised myself.  Carroll is very much a quick perimeter oriented squad with all starters avg double figures.  All four of their perimeter players are adept at taking the ball to the basket and drawing contact. Once their post 6'7 Tyler Ingebrdsten got in foul trouble along with Chicago's Colin Barthel, there was no one down low that could handle Chicago's 6'8 Blaine Crawford who received MVP honors for the tournament. IMHO Chicago will end up in the middle of the UAA behind WashU, Rochester,Emory etc. but they have played pretty well early on.