MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[GoPerry]

I watched some of the Wheaton win at Elmhurst.  Wheaton is a lot better than I expected them to be.  The Thunder have some extremely talented perimeter players who are really tough matchups -- especially 6-1 G Aston Francis and 6-5 wing Kobe Eichelberger.  Francis is a 1st Team all-CCIW caliber player who can really score it and pass it.  Wheaton doesn't have the inside game, or the depth, to win the league but they're going to give teams trouble.

On the other hand, Elmhurst looked awful.  Since losing their stud freshman PG it seems like the Bluejays have major issues at the point.

Thanks Q.

Grateful for your objective opinion since I have been thinking the same things about Wheaton.  But without watching games of other teams much, like you and others, I had much less to go on comparatively speaking.  I agree they looked very good on Saturday but you are correct to point out that it was against Elmhurst.  We'll know more after Wednesday vs an Augie team highly motivated for a home win after the loss to NPU.  Probably 10 pt dogs.

One other thought.  There was huge concern that Murad Dillard and Trae Masten decided not to play this year.  But as I watch this team, I don't think either one of them would've been a great fit with the current players. 

[bbfan44]

Four Wheaton players foul out....what's up with that?  And they still won !

The refs are obviously prejudiced against Wheaton? 

Actually, that 4 Wheaties fouled out and they still won is more of a statement about Elmhurst than it is about either Wheaton or the officiating. Think about it. 

None of that.  I think final fouls were 32 for Wheaton, 27 for EC.  If you watch the last 10 mins on video, you'll see how the refs simply could not swallow their whistles.  For those of us in the gym, we were wincing at each other as to how excruciating it was.

I get your point about Elmhurst, but the Wheaton "still won" comment was a throw away.  The main point was....four players fouling out.  Sometimes I think the ref's get into a competition with themselves to see who can be the most critical observer and whistle blower.  Did they really need to call 59 fouls or whatever it was?  There has to be a better way to deal with whatever it is they think they're seeing.  It just ruins the game when they go nuts like that. 

[Gregory Sager]

Four Wheaton players foul out....what's up with that?  And they still won !

The refs are obviously prejudiced against Wheaton? 

Actually, that 4 Wheaties fouled out and they still won is more of a statement about Elmhurst than it is about either Wheaton or the officiating. Think about it. 

None of that.  I think final fouls were 32 for Wheaton, 27 for EC.  If you watch the last 10 mins on video, you'll see how the refs simply could not swallow their whistles.  For those of us in the gym, we were wincing at each other as to how excruciating it was.

I get your point about Elmhurst, but the Wheaton "still won" comment was a throw away.  The main point was....four players fouling out.  Sometimes I think the ref's get into a competition with themselves to see who can be the most critical observer and whistle blower.  Did they really need to call 59 fouls or whatever it was?  There has to be a better way to deal with whatever it is they think they're seeing.  It just ruins the game when they go nuts like that. 

I know that fans get impatient at best if a lot of fouls are called, and irate at worst (usually when the surfeit of whistles leads to their team's players being DQ'ed). Even if you don't have a rooting interest, there's a perception that too many stoppages ruins the aesthetic flow of the game. But the point remains that a foul is still a foul, no matter how many fouls have been called before it, and it's the officials' job to call the fouls in order to protect both the integrity of the game and the safety of the players.

I didn't see the WC @ EC game, but if I might offer an explanation, consider this: The four Wheaton players who fouled out consisted of three sophomores and a freshman, with two of the sophs having seen only 112 minutes of varsity time between them coming into this season, and the pair of Wheaton players who finished with four fouls apiece were a freshman and a junior who had been on the floor for a grand total of 32 varsity minutes over the course of his first two seasons. On the other side, both of the Elmhurst players who finished with four fouls were freshmen.

This was the first CCIW game of the season for both teams. Again, I didn't see the game, but I know how young players often react when they're put into a CCIW game for extended minutes when they have little or no experience at dealing with the pressure and the physicality of league play: They foul a lot.

Elmhurst has many more veterans than does Wheaton. Granted, most of the veterans of the 'jays haven't had as much varsity playing time over the course of their careers as have their class peers who are in the rotations of the other CCIW schools, but, still, they're mostly seniors and they know the ropes. Therefore, they're less likely to foul in a CCIW-game context unless they're forced to do so. Final fouls were actually 32 for WC and 24 for EC, and in addition the fouls committed by the 'jays were more evenly distributed across their half of the box score.

Wheaton's a much younger team than is Elmhurst, so if you'd asked me before the game which team would foul more, I'd say that it would be Wheaton. (I would've also predicted a Wheaton win, because, having watched both teams, it appeared to me that the younger Wheaton squad is also clearly better than the older 'jays.) But I nevertheless would've predicted a lot of fouling, given how many relatively inexperienced players were participating in the first CCIW game of the season.

[bbfan44]

Greg, you're always a voice of reason....thanks for the perspective.

[Gregory Sager]

Thanks, bbfan44!

[blue_jays]

Four Wheaton players foul out....what's up with that?  And they still won !

The refs are obviously prejudiced against Wheaton? 

Actually, that 4 Wheaties fouled out and they still won is more of a statement about Elmhurst than it is about either Wheaton or the officiating. Think about it. 

None of that.  I think final fouls were 32 for Wheaton, 27 for EC.  If you watch the last 10 mins on video, you'll see how the refs simply could not swallow their whistles.  For those of us in the gym, we were wincing at each other as to how excruciating it was.

I get your point about Elmhurst, but the Wheaton "still won" comment was a throw away.  The main point was....four players fouling out.  Sometimes I think the ref's get into a competition with themselves to see who can be the most critical observer and whistle blower.  Did they really need to call 59 fouls or whatever it was?  There has to be a better way to deal with whatever it is they think they're seeing.  It just ruins the game when they go nuts like that. 

I know that fans get impatient at best if a lot of fouls are called, and irate at worst (usually when the surfeit of whistles leads to their team's players being DQ'ed). Even if you don't have a rooting interest, there's a perception that too many stoppages ruins the aesthetic flow of the game. But the point remains that a foul is still a foul, no matter how many fouls have been called before it, and it's the officials' job to call the fouls in order to protect both the integrity of the game and the safety of the players.

I didn't see the WC @ EC game, but if I might offer an explanation, consider this: The four Wheaton players who fouled out consisted of three sophomores and a freshman, with two of the sophs having seen only 112 minutes of varsity time between them coming into this season, and the pair of Wheaton players who finished with four fouls apiece were a freshman and a junior who had been on the floor for a grand total of 32 varsity minutes over the course of his first two seasons. On the other side, both of the Elmhurst players who finished with four fouls were freshmen.

This was the first CCIW game of the season for both teams. Again, I didn't see the game, but I know how young players often react when they're put into a CCIW game for extended minutes when they have little or no experience at dealing with the pressure and the physicality of league play: They foul a lot.

Elmhurst has many more veterans than does Wheaton. Granted, most of the veterans of the 'jays haven't had as much varsity playing time over the course of their careers as have their class peers who are in the rotations of the other CCIW schools, but, still, they're mostly seniors and they know the ropes. Therefore, they're less likely to foul in a CCIW-game context unless they're forced to do so. Final fouls were actually 32 for WC and 24 for EC, and in addition the fouls committed by the 'jays were more evenly distributed across their half of the box score.

Wheaton's a much younger team than is Elmhurst, so if you'd asked me before the game which team would foul more, I'd say that it would be Wheaton. (I would've also predicted a Wheaton win, because, having watched both teams, it appeared to me that the younger Wheaton squad is also clearly better than the older 'jays.) But I nevertheless would've predicted a lot of fouling, given how many relatively inexperienced players were participating in the first CCIW game of the season.

You'll also see a lot of fouling from Wheaton the rest of the year due to the fact that they have some size but no bulk in the post. Results in a lot of fronting, double teaming and swiping at the ball to negate that disadvantage, and when bigger teams catch the ball in the paint, a lot of fouls will be called this year.

[GoPerry]

Four Wheaton players foul out....what's up with that?  And they still won !

The refs are obviously prejudiced against Wheaton? 

Actually, that 4 Wheaties fouled out and they still won is more of a statement about Elmhurst than it is about either Wheaton or the officiating. Think about it. 

None of that.  I think final fouls were 32 for Wheaton, 27 for EC.  If you watch the last 10 mins on video, you'll see how the refs simply could not swallow their whistles.  For those of us in the gym, we were wincing at each other as to how excruciating it was.

I get your point about Elmhurst, but the Wheaton "still won" comment was a throw away.  The main point was....four players fouling out.  Sometimes I think the ref's get into a competition with themselves to see who can be the most critical observer and whistle blower.  Did they really need to call 59 fouls or whatever it was?  There has to be a better way to deal with whatever it is they think they're seeing.  It just ruins the game when they go nuts like that. 

I know that fans get impatient at best if a lot of fouls are called, and irate at worst (usually when the surfeit of whistles leads to their team's players being DQ'ed). Even if you don't have a rooting interest, there's a perception that too many stoppages ruins the aesthetic flow of the game. But the point remains that a foul is still a foul, no matter how many fouls have been called before it, and it's the officials' job to call the fouls in order to protect both the integrity of the game and the safety of the players.

I didn't see the WC @ EC game, but if I might offer an explanation, consider this: The four Wheaton players who fouled out consisted of three sophomores and a freshman, with two of the sophs having seen only 112 minutes of varsity time between them coming into this season, and the pair of Wheaton players who finished with four fouls apiece were a freshman and a junior who had been on the floor for a grand total of 32 varsity minutes over the course of his first two seasons. On the other side, both of the Elmhurst players who finished with four fouls were freshmen.

This was the first CCIW game of the season for both teams. Again, I didn't see the game, but I know how young players often react when they're put into a CCIW game for extended minutes when they have little or no experience at dealing with the pressure and the physicality of league play: They foul a lot.

Elmhurst has many more veterans than does Wheaton. Granted, most of the veterans of the 'jays haven't had as much varsity playing time over the course of their careers as have their class peers who are in the rotations of the other CCIW schools, but, still, they're mostly seniors and they know the ropes. Therefore, they're less likely to foul in a CCIW-game context unless they're forced to do so. Final fouls were actually 32 for WC and 24 for EC, and in addition the fouls committed by the 'jays were more evenly distributed across their half of the box score.

Wheaton's a much younger team than is Elmhurst, so if you'd asked me before the game which team would foul more, I'd say that it would be Wheaton. (I would've also predicted a Wheaton win, because, having watched both teams, it appeared to me that the younger Wheaton squad is also clearly better than the older 'jays.) But I nevertheless would've predicted a lot of fouling, given how many relatively inexperienced players were participating in the first CCIW game of the season.

Greg, my frustration with the officiating was that there were plenty of questionable fouls (both ways) and so many "no call" situations that got whistled.  However, it's a good observation regarding the underclassmen fouling out, and they're all underclassman basically.  Which leads to :

You'll also see a lot of fouling from Wheaton the rest of the year due to the fact that they have some size but no bulk in the post. Results in a lot of fronting, double teaming and swiping at the ball to negate that disadvantage, and when bigger teams catch the ball in the paint, a lot of fouls will be called this year.

A) They have to learn to play defense without fouling, especially down low and B) when they have 3 fouls early in the 2nd H, or have 4, they can't contest every shot down low if officiating is tight– especially when the offensive player already has inside position(like a put back off an offensive rebound).  This was especially true with Wheaton's very short roster absent 3 football players.  Back off, concede the basket and live another day and don't give the zebras the chance to tag you. 

[lmitzel]

Well deserved honor for North Park's Jordan Robinson in his second consecutive CCIW Player of the Week award.

http://www.cciw.org/news/2016/12/5/MBB_1205160842.aspx

[Gregory Sager]

New poll is out:

  9. North Central
16. Illinois Wesleyan
18. North Park

Augustana is among ORV (#27), as is Carroll (#45)

This may not be a big deal to a lot of you, but it's a very, very big deal at Foster & Kedzie. North Park has not appeared in the d3hoops.com Top 25 since Week Eight of the 1999-00 season.

Nice work, gentlemen. Let's keep it going on Wednesday on the road in Bloomington!

[AppletonRocks]

Greg, you're always a voice of reason....thanks for the perspective.

[robberki]

North Park has not appeared in the d3hoops.com Top 25 since Week Eight of the 1999-00 season.

some nice players on that team.

[Gregory Sager]

Roberto, I was sure that you were going to tell us either how handsome that team was, or what great shooters they were.

(Or both.)

[gordonmann]

Greg:

I was going to run a picture of you on the front page and even got Kevin to send me a photo. But I decided to use Robinson for the front page instead.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg:

I was going to run a picture of you on the front page and even got Kevin to send me a photo. But I decided to use Robinson for the front page instead.

Gordon, you of all people should know that the broadcaster is much more key to the Vikings' success than a mere All-American!

[Gregory Sager]

Greg:

I was going to run a picture of you on the front page and even got Kevin to send me a photo. But I decided to use Robinson for the front page instead.

... and I thank you for your wise discretion, Gordo.