MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I would imagine that several schools have finals this week (NPU does, for one), which is likely why there's such a sparse schedule. There's only two games between now and this weekend, and they both have the potential to be pretty good contests:

Tuesday's games
Augustana (7-2) @ UW-La Crosse (5-3)
North Central (5-2) @ Albion (2-4)

With Wheaton's win over Calvin on Saturday the CCIW advanced to 30-16 (.652) for the season.

[Gregory Sager]

New poll out:

13. North Central
19. North Park
21. Illinois Wesleyan
24. Augustana

Carroll is still in the ORV category, with four points.

[GoPerry]

That's strikes me as an awful lot of respect for a 2 loss North Central team remaining as high as #13.

[Gregory Sager]

True. But keep in mind that NCC has wins over two ranked teams, and at least both of the teams that beat the Cards have winning records thus far this season.

[GoPerry]

True. But keep in mind that NCC has wins over two ranked teams, and at least both of the teams that beat the Cards have winning records thus far this season.

Yes.  I thought of that.  But 2 losses, at home, vs 2 unranked teams(not even ORV) for the 13th ranked team in the poll?  I just thought they would fall further to 20th or so.  You actually have a better case to rank 2 loss Augie higher since at least their losses were against 2 ranked teams(albeit home losses).  IWU same thing.

[4samuy]

Agreed.   Congrats to Giovanine. Runs a quality program.

[iwu70]

CCIW teams gonna kill each other off now.  Tough schedules ahead for many.  IWU has Wash U and Chicago upcoming.  Those would be quality wins if the Titans can pull them off. 

IWU70

[AndOne]

CCIW teams gonna kill each other off now.  Tough schedules ahead for many.  IWU has Wash U and Chicago upcoming.  Those would be quality wins if the Titans can pull them off. 

IWU70

While a team like Benedictine (who is ranked above NCC despite NCC's beating them at BU) is going to stay highly ranked all year because they get to play 20 games in an inferior conference where only one other team (Aurora) has much of a chance of beating them. Not to say, BU isn't a good team, but some teams have built in advantages with regard to rankings.

[4samuy]

True. But keep in mind that NCC has wins over two ranked teams, and at least both of the teams that beat the Cards have winning records thus far this season.

Yes.  I thought of that.  But 2 losses, at home, vs 2 unranked teams(not even ORV) for the 13th ranked team in the poll?  I just thought they would fall further to 20th or so.  You actually have a better case to rank 2 loss Augie higher since at least their losses were against 2 ranked teams(albeit home losses).  IWU same thing.

Although I believe you may have a good point about NCC being ranked a little high, I don't believe Augie has had a win against a ranked team this year (excluding a win against an preseason over ranked Alma squad). In many cases they will look at these rankings not only from a record stand point, but Also how you've done against nationally ranked teams and teams ranked within your region. Augie just hasn't had those wins.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

True. But keep in mind that NCC has wins over two ranked teams, and at least both of the teams that beat the Cards have winning records thus far this season.

Yes.  I thought of that.  But 2 losses, at home, vs 2 unranked teams(not even ORV) for the 13th ranked team in the poll?  I just thought they would fall further to 20th or so.  You actually have a better case to rank 2 loss Augie higher since at least their losses were against 2 ranked teams(albeit home losses).  IWU same thing.

Although I believe you may have a good point about NCC being ranked a little high, I don't believe Augie has had a win against a ranked team this year (excluding a win against an preseason over ranked Alma squad). In many cases they will look at these rankings not only from a record stand point, but Also how you've done against nationally ranked teams and teams ranked within your region. Augie just hasn't had those wins.

I reluctantly voted for Augustana this week.  I have them #24.  Believe me, I do not think this is really a Top 25 team, but there are some pretty poor choices when you get down that far.  I compared them to Wooster, who has a better team on paper, but wins over Oshkosh and Wheaton (for Augie) are better than what Wooster's put together so far - and that schedule is better than some of the undefeated teams have played thus far.

As for the other three, I wussed out and just put them right in a row.  NCC seems like the best team to me, but those losses are head scratchers.  I put IWU next, then North Park - and I did it strictly based on impressions while watching those head-to-heads.  NCC looked better than IWU throughout and I thought IWU looked a little more dangerous in their loss to NPU.  If I'm picking how they'll finish in conference, I'd probably go NCC-NPU-IWU, but this is not a typical season thus far.

[CCIW ALUM]

And One,

In the case of BU Is it fair to punish a team just because the "league schedule they have to play" is not as strong as other leagues, I guess then what St. Norbert has accomplished with winning over 50 league games in a row should they be put into the same standard? My advise just win baby! Fix your house and things will work out! 

[Gregory Sager]

Another thing to consider is that, once it's January and everybody is exclusively playing league opponents, St. Norbert and Benedictine will move much more slowly up the Top 25 ladder than the schools from the power conferences will. If you're North Central and you beat, say, Carthage and Augustana in the same week, or if you're UW-Eau Claire and you beat UW-Whitewater and UW-River Falls in the same week, you're going to move up more spaces in the poll than Benedictine will for beating Edgewood and Marian, and that St. Norbert will for downing Illinois College and Lake Forest.

There will be weeks when Benedictine and/or St. Norbert go 2-0 and don't move at all in the Top 25, or they may even fall down a spot or two if the teams immediately below them from better leagues have big weeks. Trust me, all of the pollsters are well aware of the relative place of the NACC and the MWC in the D3 men's hoops universe.

[AndOne]

And One,

In the case of BU Is it fair to punish a team just because the "league schedule they have to play" is not as strong as other leagues, I guess then what St. Norbert has accomplished with winning over 50 league games in a row should they be put into the same standard? My advise just win baby! Fix your house and things will work out!

I have forever said the key to being highly ranked is "just win baby." Certainly others will disagree with me, but I am of the opinion that what pollsters love more than anything else is Ws. That's why I am always advocating scheduling lots of weaker non-conference games, especially if you play in one of the tougher and very competitive conferences where you are likely to pick up some losses during the season. Of course the opposite view that a strong non-con schedule prepares you for a tough conference also has some merit. But, from a polling standpoint, Ws are what will get you votes.

As far as "punishing" teams like BU and St. Norbert for playing in weaker conferences, yes, I do feel that all the games they get to play against less talented teams should be a consideration. Not necessarily the primary factor, but it should at least be considered. Last season BU had an amazing team. They beat 5 CCIW teams in the non-con part of their schedule so they probably would have done well for the year if they were in the CCIW. But last year was the exception. That wouldn't have happened with any other BU team for several years before last season. They might have finished in the middle of the pack. Same thing applies to St. Norbert. Their long string of conference victories is enviable to say the least. However, do you think that would have happened if they played in the CCIW or the WIAC? Don't kid yourself. No way in h-e-double hockey sticks. The only team capable of giving St. Norbert any trouble at all recently has been Carroll who is now in the CCIW. Sorry, but I just feel 18 or 20 pretty easy conference Ws is what stands out to to pollsters, and not much consideration is given to who they are against. That's JMHO which hopefully won't ruffle too many feathers.

[Gregory Sager]

It doesn't ruffle my feathers, Mark. But what you're saying simply isn't true.

We only need to look back to last season for evidence to the contrary. There were two undefeated teams left in D3 going into the tournament, Benedictine and Lancaster Bible. The final poll taken before the tournament, which came out on February 28, had Benedictine #2 ... and Lancaster Bible #14. BU, as you noted, earned that lofty mark in the non-con portion of the season by going 5-0 against the CCIW. Lancaster Bible beat a grand total of one respectable opponent outside of its league (Franklin & Marshall), while the rest of the schedule for the Chargers consisted of fertilizer. The team sitting immediately in front of Lancaster Bible in that poll, Alma at #13, had a record of 21-6 at the time.

St. Norbert was ranked seventh and was 23-2 when the poll was released. As you said, the only other respectable team in the MWC last season was Carroll (20-5), but the Green Knights had beaten the Pioneers three times in three tries prior to that final poll before the tourney. The Green Knights also had non-con wins over WIAC foes UW-Oshkosh (18-10) and UW-Eau Claire (17-10), so it's not as though they wasted all of their non-con dates on tundra scraps such as Northland, Finlandia, and Silver Lake. The Green Knights made it to the Sweet Sixteen and were within a point of Alma in the final two minutes of the sectional semis in the Rice Center, so St. Norbert certainly justified that prior #7 ranking.

Give the pollsters more credit, Mark. As I said, they understand the importance of gauging strength of schedule when they fill out their ballots.

[Gregory Sager]

Massey update:

    7. North Park
  16. Augustana
  20. Illinois Wesleyan
  27. North Central
  32. Wheaton
  53. Carroll
  86. Carthage
  99. Elmhurst
364. Millikin

The Bluejays are seriously piggybacking on Carroll.

(The top 50 local programs that are playing multiple CCIW foes this season are #14 Benedictine, #21 UW-Stevens Point, #22 Chicago, #30 Washington MO, and #45 UW-Oshkosh.)

Massey sez:

North Central 73, @ Albion 66 (NCC 74%, Albion 26%)
Augustana 71 @ UW-LaCrosse 68 (AC 60%, UWL 40%)