MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Even committing is relatively cheap, my man. It commits you to nothing other than having sent some money to the school. Nothing to do with athletics and nothing to say you can't then enroll elsewhere.

Right, and I pointed that out:

(Even then it's not 100% written in stone

But it's a significantly higher fidelity threshold than the mere verbal commitment, and if someone ever did a study comparing the percentage of players who told a coach that they were going to attend that coach's school that then actually ended up playing at that coach's school to the percentage of players who deposited at the coach's school that then actually ended up playing at that coach's school, I'm sure that the numbers would bear this out.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg - not sure what you were hearing, but my note had Sortillo with the "LLs" emphasized and I was quite sure I was saying the Ls. If that isn't how it came across, I apologize, but it was part of what I was trying to say. I know early in the semis I may have faltered, but I had been running around and had forgotten to look at my note until after we had gotten underway. Lincoln Rose, my broadcast partner, was saying it, so I know it was on my mind.

You did say "Sore-tee-yo" a couple of times during the championship game, Dave. I probably made a bigger deal out of it than I should've -- I've never worked a national championship game, so as a fellow broadcaster I of all people should be the one giving you some latitude. I only mentioned it because the Wheaton student broadcasters mispronounced his name for the full forty minutes of the AC @ WC game, and it really grated on my nerves.

I certainly didn't want to say it incorrectly. In my notes section is the pronunciation (which wasn't that hard to find from the terrific notes and info from Dave Wrath). I apologize if I did. I have no excuse, though the weekend was a blur.

Don't worry about it, Dave. As I said, in retrospect I was too hard on you. You simply pressed my "Wheaton" button.

(And kudos to you for name-dropping Dave Wrath, who is one of the best SIDs in the biz.)

[kiko]

Yes, yes, we all understand the progression.

... and as you suggest, the further you get into the progression, the more likely the kid is to actually turn up in the layup lines come November.  That's pretty common sense.

But there's no hard-and-fast rule here, and different folks may choose to place the emphasis on a different point in the progression than you do.  Even you are all over the map on this topic:

a bona-fide recruit in D3 is somebody who has made a tuition deposit for the subsequent school year, or accepted and signed for a non-athletic scholarship from that school. (Even then it's not 100% written in stone

So you're arguing that the deposit is the tipping point...

Because there's no ironclad commitment to playing basketball, or any other sport, at a D3 school, nobody is ever a sure thing even once he or she has started classes. You don't count upon an 18-year-old until he's actually in the layup line on November 15.

... except that it's when they start classes. 

You don't count upon an 18-year-old until he's actually in the layup line on November 15.

... unless it is when they suit up.

In the absence of a clearly defined line of demarcation, there really is no defined point where a recruit becomes "official" or binding.  You've picked one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more right than another point.  It's just further down the selection funnel.  Perhaps the best answer is:

High-school seniors can tweet whatever they like, and people can re-post those tweets on the internet if that's what they feel inclined to do ... and anybody is certainly welcome to embrace those posts as gospel truth if that's what they wish.

Random internet cranks like me can choose to put whatever weight they wish on various mile markers throughout the process on the likelihood of a recruit landing at a particular school.  You place more emphasis on one particular milestone (to-may-to), and others might put more emphasis on another (to-mah-to).  This means they're different -- not necessarily wrong.

[Gregory Sager]

Yes, yes, we all understand the progression.

... and as you suggest, the further you get into the progression, the more likely the kid is to actually turn up in the layup lines come November.  That's pretty common sense.

But there's no hard-and-fast rule here, and different folks may choose to place the emphasis on a different point in the progression than you do.  Even you are all over the map on this topic:

Not really. In terms of the recruiting process the line of demarcation is the deposit. In other words, it's a different map altogether than the one that describes where a recruit becomes a player.

In the absence of a clearly defined line of demarcation, there really is no defined point where a recruit becomes "official" or binding.  You've picked one, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more right than another point.  It's just further down the selection funnel.  Perhaps the best answer is:

High-school seniors can tweet whatever they like, and people can re-post those tweets on the internet if that's what they feel inclined to do ... and anybody is certainly welcome to embrace those posts as gospel truth if that's what they wish.

Random internet cranks like me can choose to put whatever weight they wish on various mile markers throughout the process on the likelihood of a recruit landing at a particular school.  You place more emphasis on one particular milestone (to-may-to), and others might put more emphasis on another (to-mah-to).  This means they're different -- not necessarily wrong.

On the contrary, I would say that the hard-and-fast rule is that which is set by the institution (or at least the coach). After all, any rule requires an arbiter, and the institution/coach should certainly be considered the authority on who does or does not constitute a recruit for that school and/or coach. For North Park -- which, after all, is the institution in question here -- the rule is "deposit = commitment", rather than "player's say-so = commitment". As I said, if I'm aware that a student-athlete has said that he or she plans to attend North Park to continue his or her playing career, in line with program policy I keep that news to myself until I have it confirmed that the student-athlete has put down a deposit. My understanding is that this is how many, if not most, coaching staffs and/or SIDs handle recruiting announcements as well.

Other schools may choose to do things differently. To my mind, those schools are doing it wrong, and that's why I said this:

But a bona-fide recruit in D3 is somebody who has made a tuition deposit for the subsequent school year, or accepted and signed for a non-athletic scholarship from that school.

...  but because there's neither a hard-and-fast rule nor an enforcement mechanism that spans the league, or D3 as a whole, on this matter, what I call "wrong" in terms of another school or coaching staff officially publicizing a verbal commitment as a done deal is a matter of opinion on my part. It doesn't mean that I'm going to take a relativist view and concede, in "to-may-to/to-mah-to" style, that they're just two different ways of doing things, with no value judgments involved. I still think that officially publicizing a verbal commitment as a done deal is the wrong thing for an athletic department or coaching staff to do. It's just a different kind of "wrong" -- what I perceive to be an error, as based upon my own convictions -- than the error of fact that Mark committed when he said, contrary to NPU men's basketball policy, that Chamar Flanigan (or anybody else who has verbally committed without laying the money down, had Bob or Mark known who they were) was the Park's first recruit of this cycle.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Greg - not sure what you were hearing, but my note had Sortillo with the "LLs" emphasized and I was quite sure I was saying the Ls. If that isn't how it came across, I apologize, but it was part of what I was trying to say. I know early in the semis I may have faltered, but I had been running around and had forgotten to look at my note until after we had gotten underway. Lincoln Rose, my broadcast partner, was saying it, so I know it was on my mind.

You did say "Sore-tee-yo" a couple of times during the championship game, Dave. I probably made a bigger deal out of it than I should've -- I've never worked a national championship game, so as a fellow broadcaster I of all people should be the one giving you some latitude. I only mentioned it because the Wheaton student broadcasters mispronounced his name for the full forty minutes of the AC @ WC game, and it really grated on my nerves.

I'll admit, it was super confusing there.  Everyone was saying "Sore-tee-yo" press conference, public address, event staff, half the media (and half the media there were from the QC) - I was really doubting myself by the end of the weekend.  Public address did change to "Sore-till-oh" after halftime of the championship game, so it did get around.  Even having lived in KC for six years, even I underestimated the politeness of midwesterners, putting up with the mispronunciation so much.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I'm surprised the PA guy got it wrong. He does his homework and the Wrath (to drop his name again; he was so thrilled to be there this year... loved chatting with him) had given out the pronunciations.

Oh well. Sorry Sortillo. I am sure I will be saying his name a lot in the future to allow myself to make up for it.

[kiko]

Eh, the deposit is simply a deeper progression down the decision funnel.  It is certainly an important milestone that indicates seriousness on the part of the student, but it is not a point of no return.

Your initial response to this was not framed in the context of "this is North Park's policy on who is and isn't an official recruit"  it was framed in the context of "this is Gregory Sager's opinion on what is and isn't an official recruit".  Those are two different things.  I'm not arguing what North Park's policy is.  I'm arguing that it isn't the only standard that one can choose to use here.

On the contrary, I would say that the hard-and-fast rule is that which is set by the institution (or at least the coach).

This I agree with...

Other schools may choose to do things differently. To my mind, those schools are doing it wrong

... but this is a matter of personal opinion and preference.  (Which is to say, they probably think you're wrong on this.)

...  but because there's neither a hard-and-fast rule nor an enforcement mechanism that spans the league, or D3 as a whole, on this matter, what I call "wrong" in terms of another school or coaching staff officially publicizing a verbal commitment as a done deal is a matter of opinion on my part.

I don't see anyone "officially" publicizing a verbal commitment as a done deal here.  I see two random internet guys who are closely associated with specific institutions noting that a recruit seems to have his GPS pointed in the general direction of Foster and Kedzie.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I have totally gotten lost on this back and forth on recruiting... but just in case it is needed: the NCAA (meaning Division III membership) does not allow schools to comment officially or even mention recruits coming to their respective schools until the deposit has been put down, though there is a date involved as well that after that date, they may be able to mention it... but I still think it has to do with the deposit. That is why the deposit is such a topic point in these discussions.

[Gregory Sager]

Your initial response to this was not framed in the context of "this is North Park's policy on who is and isn't an official recruit"  it was framed in the context of "this is Gregory Sager's opinion on what is and isn't an official recruit".

Actually, that's not true. I did frame it in the context of "this is North Park's policy on who is and isn't an official recruit" in my first post. Here's the money quote (with added emphasis this time):

The NPU coaches have received other verbal commitments prior to Flanigan (I suppose that in the social-media age a tweet constitutes a verbal commitment). You haven't heard about any of those verbal commitments from me, nor will you. But you'll hear very quickly from me when they put their money down and make it official.

I don't get to decide what is or isn't official per North Park policy. So when I say that a recruitment has been made official, it's on NPU's terms, not mine.

...  but because there's neither a hard-and-fast rule nor an enforcement mechanism that spans the league, or D3 as a whole, on this matter, what I call "wrong" in terms of another school or coaching staff officially publicizing a verbal commitment as a done deal is a matter of opinion on my part.

I don't see anyone "officially" publicizing a verbal commitment as a done deal here.  I see two random internet guys who are closely associated with specific institutions noting that a recruit seems to have his GPS pointed in the general direction of Foster and Kedzie.

Sure, but the point I was making here didn't refer to Mark or Bob or anybody else who posts a verbal on d3boards.com. It was referring to what D3 athletic departments do. Where I was in error here is that I didn't think that there was a hard-and-fast rule for D3 regarding when somebody officially becomes a recruit. As it turns out, there is such a rule, as D-Mac points out:

I have totally gotten lost on this back and forth on recruiting... but just in case it is needed: the NCAA (meaning Division III membership) does not allow schools to comment officially or even mention recruits coming to their respective schools until the deposit has been put down, though there is a date involved as well that after that date, they may be able to mention it... but I still think it has to do with the deposit. That is why the deposit is such a topic point in these discussions.

I've since found the rule in question; it's 13.10.7, which is on page 79 of the most recent available (2015-16) edition of The NCAA Division III Manual:

13.10.7 Announcement of Acceptance. Publicity released by an institution concerning a prospective
student-athlete's commitment to attend the institution shall occur only after the paid acceptance of the institution's
written offer of admission and/or financial aid. Such communications may be released to media outlets at the
institution's discretion; however, an institution is prohibited from purchasing or receiving commercial advertising
(e.g., print, media or billboard) to be used to identify a prospective student-athlete by name or picture. [D] (Revised:
1/14/97, 1/11/00 effective 8/1/00, 1/9/06)

Section 13.10 as a whole deals with publicity regarding the recruitment process of prospective student-athletes, and there's a long list there of things that an institution and its representatives can't do until the deposit is made. I didn't see anything in there about dates, so I'm not quite sure as to what D-Mac is referring in his post, although I admit that I didn't go over Section 13 with a fine-toothed comb.

So ... my apologies, everybody. If I hadn't been lazy and had looked in the D3 Manual straightaway, I could've spared us all the back-and-forth. As it turns out, North Park's position is D3's official position: A student-athlete is not an official recruit by the standards of any D3 school until he or she has paid the tuition deposit.

While there's nothing in the D3 Manual as far as I could see about third parties (that's us) discussing recruiting or disseminating information about student-athletes who have made verbal commitments, which means that Bob or Mark or you or I or anybody else is perfectly free to pass along some kid's tweet announcing his choice of school, there is, indeed, a line of demarcation and a hard-and-fast rule as to who really is an official recruit and who isn't.

[Pat Coleman]

The thing to take away from this is that Gregory acts as an official mouthpiece for North Park athletics, regardless of whether he should.

[Gregory Sager]

The reins on me are tighter than you think, Pat, even when I'm straining at the bit.

North Park SID Kevin Shepke doesn't generally post recruiting lists for any of NPU's sports. Last year, for instance, the NPU football team released its recruitment list as a long series of tweets that were sent out by head coach Mike Conway's wife, Beth (who works for North Park and helps Kevin put together the Vikings football media guide, but who isn't part of the athletics staff), in the middle of May, which I copied and posted in the CCIW football room. I don't think that Kevin has posted a recruiting list for men's basketball since this one prior to the 2009-10 season -- and when I mean "prior to", I mean that this was put out the day before the first practice in October of that season.

It's certainly not his fault. As I discussed here last fall, North Park coaches in several sports are notorious for not releasing their rosters to Kevin until the last possible moment. It stands to reason, then, that they wouldn't give him early-notice recruiting lists, either. But they will give me permission to post the names of recruits here once they become official. I think that everybody's fine with that way of doing things (including Kevin), as long as I don't overstep my bounds and discuss prospects and/or verbal commitments ... which I never have, of course.

[kiko]

That's what I get for not reading further than 13.10.6... 

I'm tempted to close this conversation by announcing that I'm taking my basketball talents to NPU next year, but I don't want to create any further awkwardness or confusion around this topic...

Also, I don't look good in blue.

[Gregory Sager]

That's what I get for not reading further than 13.10.6... 

LOL!

I'm tempted to close this conversation by announcing that I'm taking my basketball talents to NPU next year, but I don't want to create any further awkwardness or confusion around this topic...

Also, I don't look good in blue.

You're spoiled by being a North Central fan. Black goes with everything.

[Gregory Sager]

Final poll is out. Augie finished third, North Central was in the ORV category.

http://d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/final

[Mr. Ypsi]

Final poll is out. Augie finished third, North Central was in the ORV category.

http://d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/final

Seemed a bit harsh to 'poor' MIT.  They finished 21-7, were the last team to defeat national champion Babson, and got TWO points?!

Despite my CCIW loyalties, was glad to see Whitman stay ahead of Augie.  ONE loss all season beats the heck out of 9 losses, even if Augie did come within a blocked layup of the title.  Likewise Midd staying ahead of Williams - 4 vs. 9 losses is a pretty big gap.

Some years I think the voters put WAY to much emphasis on the tourney and ignore the rest of the season.  This year I have no MAJOR quibbles with the poll.