MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I'd vote for Francis, Lake and Brady Rose for first team CCIW.

Good grief. We're still two games away from the end of the first round-robin, and you're already talking about the All-CCIW team?

I think the fifth first-teamer will be someone from Augustana -- probably Orange.  I expect they will make the dance, and don't see a team of that caliber not being represented on the first team.

Raridon has really sacrificed his scoring numbers since moving to the point, but the Cardinals are a much better team with him there versus other configurations.  I personally see him as landing somewhere on the second or third team, though he is IMO North Central's most valuable (as opposed to most outstanding) player.

Raridon is averaging about 13pts/game, 6 rebs, 6 assts for both overall and conference only.  Leading the league in asst/to.  There are 8 first teamers now right?  Raridon will be one of them, and he should be.

Yes 8 first team and 8 second team. Positions don't matter on it either. I'd count on Jeremy Ireland making an appearance on the first team too with 17.2/8.7 in the CCIW so far.

Come on, guys.

[Gregory Sager]

The guy was stone cold out of it -- in another zone.  Luckily, Rose and Bonnett matched him

Almost matched him.

Lake = 46
Rose & Bonnett = 45

So should we be congratulating Illinois Wesleyan, or not? 

LOL!

[Pat Coleman]

It's been the subject of talk around here so I'll drop this link here as well. Benedictine's board approved the application to D-II and it is moving forward:
http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2018/01/benedictine-looking-to-d2

[gordonmann]

Outside of preseason expectations, what would be the explanation for such a gap with these 2017-18 resumes?

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Augustana/men/2017-18/index

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Wesleyan/men/2017-18/index

I don't understand why the teams are so far apart from each other either, but to try to answer your question...

- The most obvious data point is IWU pounding Augustana in Shirk. My guess is that voters are chalking that up to an anomaly and want to see what happens when they play in Rock Island.
- Let's consider the teams' losses to Carthage and Wheaton as a wash. Both were close home losses to quality conference opponents.
- Augustana's other loss is double-overtime to No. 6 Oshkosh at their place. Augie also has a win over No. 3 Wash U by a comfortable margin in their gym and a win over current WIAC leader Stevens Point.
- IWU's non-conference record includes a loss to No. 17 Emory and a non-competitive loss to No. 3 Wash U. I'm not sure what the Titans' best non-conference win is.

I think most pollsters would slot IWU after Emory (given the head-to-head result) and Emory isn't going to be terribly high because of its non-conference losses. Add in the Augustana's win and very competitive loss to teams in the Top 10 and the fact that IWU doesn't have anything similar on their schedule. The most obvious data point here is IWU bombing Augustana, but that's a conference game on the Titans' court so some people will discount that or at least wait for the rematch.

If I voted in the Top 25 for men, I'd probably want IWU higher but below Emory (assuming they are on my ballot). Based on watching the Vikings this year, I still think Augustana is one of the best 10 teams in the country, so I don't want to drop them farther than they are. And I end up with a spread pretty close to what we have here without referring to last season.

[WUPHF]

Raridon is averaging about 13pts/game, 6 rebs, 6 assts for both overall and conference only.  Leading the league in asst/to.  There are 8 first teamers now right?  Raridon will be one of them, and he should be.

For some reason, I thought the CCIW had 5 per team over 3 teams.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Outside of preseason expectations, what would be the explanation for such a gap with these 2017-18 resumes?

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Augustana/men/2017-18/index

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Wesleyan/men/2017-18/index

I don't understand why the teams are so far apart from each other either, but to try to answer your question...

- The most obvious data point is IWU pounding Augustana in Shirk. My guess is that voters are chalking that up to an anomaly and want to see what happens when they play in Rock Island.
- Let's consider the teams' losses to Carthage and Wheaton as a wash. Both were close home losses to quality conference opponents.
- Augustana's other loss is double-overtime to No. 6 Oshkosh at their place. Augie also has a win over No. 3 Wash U by a comfortable margin in their gym and a win over current WIAC leader Stevens Point.
- IWU's non-conference record includes a loss to No. 17 Emory and a non-competitive loss to No. 3 Wash U. I'm not sure what the Titans' best non-conference win is.

I think most pollsters would slot IWU after Emory (given the head-to-head result) and Emory isn't going to be terribly high because of its non-conference losses. Add in the Augustana's win and very competitive loss to teams in the Top 10 and the fact that IWU doesn't have anything similar on their schedule. The most obvious data point here is IWU bombing Augustana, but that's a conference game on the Titans' court so some people will discount that or at least wait for the rematch.

If I voted in the Top 25 for men, I'd probably want IWU higher but below Emory (assuming they are on my ballot). Based on watching the Vikings this year, I still think Augustana is one of the best 10 teams in the country, so I don't want to drop them farther than they are. And I end up with a spread pretty close to what we have here without referring to last season.

Pretty much all of that was on my mind when I voted this week (and in week's past) and came up with a lot of the same reasoning. It was also why IWU didn't get on to my ballot sooner.

I like IWU and have wanted to vote for them more often and higher, but a lot of what Gordon describes came into play including the fact that if I am going to vote for IWU, I need to consider other teams as well and at some point that wasn't working.

My blog will be out later, I hope, but I am not positive how much it may help people. My tweet from last night gives you clue of how confusing this has been this year: http://www.d3hoops.com/awards/tow/2017-18/week6

[newCCIWfan]

Raridon is averaging about 13pts/game, 6 rebs, 6 assts for both overall and conference only.  Leading the league in asst/to.  There are 8 first teamers now right?  Raridon will be one of them, and he should be.

For some reason, I thought the CCIW had 5 per team over 3 teams.

If this year is the same as last year --- it's two eight person teams. http://www.cciw.org/sports/2017/2/22/MBB_0222171011.aspx?id=2138&

[Greek Tragedy]

Outside of preseason expectations, what would be the explanation for such a gap with these 2017-18 resumes?

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Augustana/men/2017-18/index

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Wesleyan/men/2017-18/index

You answered your own question. That's the answer. Basically, Augustana had a 596 point lead to start the season. IWU didn't have any votes.

Another point is something Dave always talks about...you can't look at the poll as a vacuum. You just can't compare Team A to Team B. You have to look at what's going on around you. Who else is winning, who else is losing. So, if gordonmann thinks the schedules are nearly a wash except for IWU destroying Augie, is that worth 600 points?

Some may, or already have, argued why have a preseason poll. Why not wait until January 1 for the 1st poll?

[WUPHF]

If this year is the same as last year --- it's two eight person teams. http://www.cciw.org/sports/2017/2/22/MBB_0222171011.aspx?id=2138&

Thanks!

Why not wait until January 1 for the 1st poll?

I would have to think that if there was a poll as to the timing of the first poll, that nearly 100% of the voters would want the status quo.  I mean, why would anyone vote against having something else to talk about?

[Greek Tragedy]

If this year is the same as last year --- it's two eight person teams. http://www.cciw.org/sports/2017/2/22/MBB_0222171011.aspx?id=2138&

Thanks!

Why not wait until January 1 for the 1st poll?

I would have to think that if there was a poll as to the timing of the first poll, that nearly 100% of the voters would want the status quo.  I mean, why would anyone vote against having something else to talk about?

You spelled whine wrong.

[Gregory Sager]

Raridon is averaging about 13pts/game, 6 rebs, 6 assts for both overall and conference only.  Leading the league in asst/to.  There are 8 first teamers now right?  Raridon will be one of them, and he should be.

For some reason, I thought the CCIW had 5 per team over 3 teams.

The coaches changed the format last year to eight players on two teams. That gives sixteen total slots, one more than was available under the old format, which is a better fit for what became a nine-team league last season.

[Gregory Sager]

Outside of preseason expectations, what would be the explanation for such a gap with these 2017-18 resumes?

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Augustana/men/2017-18/index

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Wesleyan/men/2017-18/index

I don't understand why the teams are so far apart from each other either, but to try to answer your question...

- The most obvious data point is IWU pounding Augustana in Shirk. My guess is that voters are chalking that up to an anomaly and want to see what happens when they play in Rock Island.
- Let's consider the teams' losses to Carthage and Wheaton as a wash. Both were close home losses to quality conference opponents.
- Augustana's other loss is double-overtime to No. 6 Oshkosh at their place. Augie also has a win over No. 3 Wash U by a comfortable margin in their gym and a win over current WIAC leader Stevens Point.
- IWU's non-conference record includes a loss to No. 17 Emory and a non-competitive loss to No. 3 Wash U. I'm not sure what the Titans' best non-conference win is.

I think most pollsters would slot IWU after Emory (given the head-to-head result) and Emory isn't going to be terribly high because of its non-conference losses. Add in the Augustana's win and very competitive loss to teams in the Top 10 and the fact that IWU doesn't have anything similar on their schedule. The most obvious data point here is IWU bombing Augustana, but that's a conference game on the Titans' court so some people will discount that or at least wait for the rematch.

If I voted in the Top 25 for men, I'd probably want IWU higher but below Emory (assuming they are on my ballot). Based on watching the Vikings this year, I still think Augustana is one of the best 10 teams in the country, so I don't want to drop them farther than they are. And I end up with a spread pretty close to what we have here without referring to last season.

So, in other words, Illinois Wesleyan beating Augustana doesn't count, but Emory beating Illinois Wesleyan counts. Got it.

Outside of preseason expectations, what would be the explanation for such a gap with these 2017-18 resumes?

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Augustana/men/2017-18/index

http://www.d3hoops.com/teams/Illinois_Wesleyan/men/2017-18/index

You answered your own question. That's the answer. Basically, Augustana had a 596 point lead to start the season. IWU didn't have any votes.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think conference games are sometimes looked at differently than non-conference games. I don't necessarily take that adage, but I know there is a rematch coming with IWU and Augustana.

[AndOne]

Wednesday's games:
Augustana (12-3, 4-2) @ Elmhurst (10-5, 3-3)
Wheaton (11-4, 5-2) @ Carthage (9-6, 4-2)
Millikin (8-7, 1-5) @ Illinois Wesleyan (12-3, 5-1)
North Park (4-10, 1-5) @ Carroll (4-11, 0-6)
Finlandia (3-10) @ North Central (11-4)

Massey sez:

Augustana 78, Elmhurst 72	AC 72%, EC 28%
Carthage 78, Wheaton 76	CC 57%, WC 43%
Illinois Wesleyan 76, Millikin 63	IWU 90%, MU 10%
Carroll 69, North Park 65	CU 65%, NPU 35%
North Central 92,  Finlandia 57	NCC 100%, Finlandia 0%

The Finlandia @ NCC game is tonight, Tues., 1/16 @ 6:00, not tomorrow night.

[gordonmann]

Some voters weigh non-conference results differently than conference results because of familiarity between the teams. Surely you've seen instances where one team beats another in conference where the victor isn't considered clearly better than the vanquished, right?

Where would you slot the two teams? And how would you resolve the Wash U-IWU-Augustana triangle?