MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AppletonRocks]

I think we should have a CCIW/WIAC Challenge with all the games at the UWM Arena. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Ironically, Dave has now flipped Augie and IWU. He has IWU 14th and Augie 15th this week.

Ryan, I doubt that anyone would have an issue with you slotting Augie one spot ahead of IWU. The complaints in this room were about the wide disparity between the two in terms of poll position and poll points (a wide disparity that, while lessened, still exists in this week's poll, mind you), not about which one should be ahead of the other.

With d-mac and Ryan both having Augie and IWU 1 slot apart (and canceling each other out), the other 23 voters are REALLY screwing up on the relative merits of Augie and IWU!!

Hopefully the regional rankings will get things back in order.  We'll probably need them for Pool C since, despite going to Salem three times since the conference tourney began in 2006, we have NEVER won the AQ!

[titanalum94]

The CCIW tournament has been expanded to six teams for men's and women's basketball starting next season, here's a link to the mock schedule for the event: https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/General/Misc/Tourney_Expansion/MWBasketball.pdf

#1 and #2 seed now get first-round byes

[lmitzel]

The CCIW tournament has been expanded to six teams for men's and women's basketball starting next season, here's a link to the mock schedule for the event: https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/General/Misc/Tourney_Expansion/MWBasketball.pdf

#1 and #2 seed now get first-round byes

I kind of like the idea. I'm just curious to see how it's going to impact the regular season schedule. With the old system, February 19th, 2019 would be the last day of regular season play. They're going to have to made some adjustments (a 4th December game?) to allow for this.

For reference, were this system in place last year, 9-7 Illinois Wesleyan and 8-8 Carroll (if the CCIW records are right, because Wheaton was also 8-8 and I don't remember how the tiebreakers went) would have also made the tournament, playing at 9-7 North Central and 11-5 Augustana, respectively. This also probably would have changed the "They shouldn't have let us in" mantra that permeated Naperville last February.

[Gregory Sager]

The CCIW tournament has been expanded to six teams for men's and women's basketball starting next season, here's a link to the mock schedule for the event: https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/General/Misc/Tourney_Expansion/MWBasketball.pdf

#1 and #2 seed now get first-round byes

I kind of like the idea. I'm just curious to see how it's going to impact the regular season schedule. With the old system, February 19th, 2019 would be the last day of regular season play. They're going to have to made some adjustments (a 4th December game?) to allow for this.

It'll be easily done. These posts taken from the D3 Proposals at the 2018 NCAA Convention room explain why:

Nine proposals and one amendment proposed; among them

• 2018-4: Graduate and postbaccalaureate eligibility among students graduating from DIII institutions


• Permit those who have graduated from Division III institutions and have remaining athletics eligibility to compete at another Division III institution.
• Students must be seeking a second baccalaureate or graduate degree, and participation must occur in the legislated 10-semester/15-quarter period.


• 2018-5: Football preseason start date


• Make first permissible practice date 25 days before first permissible Saturday contest date. · Ensure a day off of physical athletically related activities during the first six days of preseason and a day off of physical athletically related activities during each remaining week of the preseason.
• On-field activity cannot exceed four hours per day and no practice session can last more than three hours.


• 2018-6: Alumni contest exemption


• Add an exemption for one annual alumni contest per sport (except for football).
• Alumni contest would not count against the two permitted exhibitions, scrimmages or joint practices.


• 2018-7: First permissible basketball contest date


• Make Nov. 8 the first permissible contest date in basketball.
• When Nov. 8 falls on a Saturday, Sunday or Monday, first game may be held on the preceding Friday.

The basketball start date is currently Nov 15th.  The football section is way too dense for me to figure out net impact without spending way more time than I want to - see the Official Notice if you want to give it a go.

Prop 7 (establishes 1st permissible basketball date as Nov. 8) was adopted 326-134-4

In other words, there's now an entire extra week in mid-November to schedule games, so adding a fourth CCIW date will be easy.

For reference, were this system in place last year, 9-7 Illinois Wesleyan and 8-8 Carroll (if the CCIW records are right, because Wheaton was also 8-8 and I don't remember how the tiebreakers went) would have also made the tournament, playing at 9-7 North Central and 11-5 Augustana, respectively. This also probably would have changed the "They shouldn't have let us in" mantra that permeated Naperville last February.

Last season the tiebreakers among the tri-champions went like this:

#1 Carthage (which hosted the tourney)
#2 Augustana
#3 North Park

Carthage swept North Park, which swept Augie, which swept Carthage. The next tiebreaker was the descending-ladder tiebreaker (i.e., record against the team on the next rung down in the standings), which was North Central (by virtue of the Cards having swept Illinois Wesleyan, with whom NCC tied for fourth place at 9-7). Carthage and Augie swept NCC, while NPU split with the Cardinals, consigning NPU to the #3 spot. Of the two teams left, Carthage had swept Augie, so that settled which was #1 and which was #2. In other words, under the new format to be instituted next season, Carthage and Augie would've received the opening-round byes, while #3 North Park and #4 North Central would've hosted the first-round games.

Naturally, Illinois Wesleyan would've been #5. As you noted, Carroll and Wheaton tied for sixth place at 8-8. They split their regular-season series, so the next tiebreaker, descending ladder, comes into play. Both teams split with #1 Carthage, but #2 Augustana split with Carroll while sweeping Wheaton, so the Pioneers would've received the sixth and final berth.

The CCIW tournament would've thus looked like this:

Tuesday, February 21, 2017:
#6 Carroll @ #3 North Park
#5 Illinois Wesleyan @ #4 North Central

Friday, February 24, 2017:
Highest remaining seed vs. #2 Augustana (@ Tarble Arena)
Lowest remaining seed @ #1 Carthage

Saturday, February 25, 2017:
Championship game @ Tarble Arena

[Greek Tragedy]

Why wouldn't they do Tuesday, Thursday Saturday? If it's Friday/Saturday, then would the higher seed just host the semis?

[Gregory Sager]

Why wouldn't they do Tuesday, Thursday Saturday?

A Tuesday/Friday/Saturday format is a better fit in terms of academic schedules. The paramount concern among CCIW presidents to adding another layer of playoffs was avoiding missed class time due to travel.

If it's Friday/Saturday, then would the higher seed just host the semis?

Yes, they would, and I've amended my post to reflect that. Too many years of designing playoff seedings for my church softball league makes me do the "@ #1" and "@ #2" semifinal round as second nature.

[newCCIWfan]

Why wouldn't they do Tuesday, Thursday Saturday? If it's Friday/Saturday, then would the higher seed just host the semis?

I imagine it has something to do with travel expenses, as well as, perhaps mimicking a typical NCAA tournament weekend.   As it is stands, the #1 seed will host the two semi-final games and the championship game on Friday / Saturday.

[lmitzel]

For reference, were this system in place last year, 9-7 Illinois Wesleyan and 8-8 Carroll (if the CCIW records are right, because Wheaton was also 8-8 and I don't remember how the tiebreakers went) would have also made the tournament, playing at 9-7 North Central and 11-5 Augustana, respectively. This also probably would have changed the "They shouldn't have let us in" mantra that permeated Naperville last February.

Last season the tiebreakers among the tri-champions went like this:

#1 Carthage (which hosted the tourney)
#2 North Park
#3 Augustana

Carthage swept North Park, which swept Augie, which swept split with Carthage. The next tiebreaker was the descending-ladder tiebreaker (i.e., record against the team on the next rung down in the standings), which was North Central (by virtue of the Cards having swept Illinois Wesleyan, with whom NCC tied for fourth place at 9-7). Carthage and Augie swept NCC, while NPU split with the Cardinals, consigning NPU to the #3 spot. Of the two teams left, Carthage had swept Augie, so that settled which was #1 and which was #2. In other words, under the new format to be instituted next season, Carthage and Augie would've received the opening-round byes, while #3 North Park and #4 North Central would've hosted the first-round games. Carthage was 3-1 head to head against the other tri-champions, North Park was 2-2, Augie was 1-3. Which, thankfully, meant we didn't need to go farther down the tiebreaker list for this part and ordered the teams as such as opposed to having the rock-paper-scissors tie.

Naturally, Illinois Wesleyan would've been #5. As you noted, Carroll and Wheaton tied for sixth place at 8-8. They split their regular-season series, so the next tiebreaker, descending ladder, comes into play. Both teams split with #1 Carthage and #2 North Park, but #2 #3 Augustana split with Carroll while sweeping Wheaton,[/s] so the Pioneers would've received the sixth and final berth.

The CCIW tournament would've thus looked like this:

Tuesday, February 21, 2017:
#6 Carroll @ #3 Augustana
#5 Illinois Wesleyan @ #4 North Central

Friday, February 24, 2017:
Lowest remaining seed @ #1 Carthage
Highest remaining seed @ #2 North Park (@ Tarble Arena)

Saturday, February 25, 2017:
Championship game @ Tarble Arena

Something didn't seem right about that, and I went back to double check and fix (fixes in bold). They made a big deal last year about the title game between #3 Augie and #4 North Central, since whoever won would be the first time a #3 or #4 seed had ever won the thing. In the grand scheme of things, not a huge deal, but I couldn't help myself.

Why wouldn't they do Tuesday, Thursday Saturday?

A Tuesday/Friday/Saturday format is a better fit in terms of academic schedules. The paramount concern among CCIW presidents to adding another layer of playoffs was avoiding missed class time due to travel.

If it's Friday/Saturday, then would the higher seed just host the semis?

Yes, they would, and I've amended my post to reflect that. Too many years of designing playoff seedings for my church softball league makes me do the "@ #1" and "@ #2" semifinal round as second nature.

And yet through all of that, I completely missed this part even though in my head I knew both semis were at Tarble.

[Gregory Sager]

For reference, were this system in place last year, 9-7 Illinois Wesleyan and 8-8 Carroll (if the CCIW records are right, because Wheaton was also 8-8 and I don't remember how the tiebreakers went) would have also made the tournament, playing at 9-7 North Central and 11-5 Augustana, respectively. This also probably would have changed the "They shouldn't have let us in" mantra that permeated Naperville last February.

Last season the tiebreakers among the tri-champions went like this:

#1 Carthage (which hosted the tourney)
#2 North Park
#3 Augustana

Carthage swept North Park, which swept Augie, which swept split with Carthage. The next tiebreaker was the descending-ladder tiebreaker (i.e., record against the team on the next rung down in the standings), which was North Central (by virtue of the Cards having swept Illinois Wesleyan, with whom NCC tied for fourth place at 9-7). Carthage and Augie swept NCC, while NPU split with the Cardinals, consigning NPU to the #3 spot. Of the two teams left, Carthage had swept Augie, so that settled which was #1 and which was #2. In other words, under the new format to be instituted next season, Carthage and Augie would've received the opening-round byes, while #3 North Park and #4 North Central would've hosted the first-round games. Carthage was 3-1 head to head against the other tri-champions, North Park was 2-2, Augie was 1-3. Which, thankfully, meant we didn't need to go farther down the tiebreaker list for this part and ordered the teams as such as opposed to having the rock-paper-scissors tie.

Naturally, Illinois Wesleyan would've been #5. As you noted, Carroll and Wheaton tied for sixth place at 8-8. They split their regular-season series, so the next tiebreaker, descending ladder, comes into play. Both teams split with #1 Carthage and #2 North Park, but #2 #3 Augustana split with Carroll while sweeping Wheaton,[/s] so the Pioneers would've received the sixth and final berth.

The CCIW tournament would've thus looked like this:

Tuesday, February 21, 2017:
#6 Carroll @ #3 Augustana
#5 Illinois Wesleyan @ #4 North Central

Friday, February 24, 2017:
Lowest remaining seed @ #1 Carthage
Highest remaining seed @ #2 North Park (@ Tarble Arena)

Saturday, February 25, 2017:
Championship game @ Tarble Arena

Something didn't seem right about that, and I went back to double check and fix (fixes in bold). They made a big deal last year about the title game between #3 Augie and #4 North Central, since whoever won would be the first time a #3 or #4 seed had ever won the thing. In the grand scheme of things, not a huge deal, but I couldn't help myself.

Yeah, you're right. I combed through last season's results, and still got that January 28 AC @ CC result wrong. I am definitely off my game today.

[Gregory Sager]

At any rate, we now have an interesting topic of discussion opened up: Six teams going to the CCIW tournament instead of four, starting next season. Thoughts?

[USee]

I generally like conference tournaments yet this has the potential to be an additional pool C buster for a bubble CCIW team.

[lmitzel]

On the whole, I like it. You still have the regular season mattering (not every team makes it, which would probably just be a huge logistical nightmare trying to fit an 8-9 matchup, then quarterfinals at probably the top two seeds, followed by the semis and title game at the top seed), and it won't be like the teams that make it don't deserve it.

Like we mentioned above, last year you would have added a 9-7 team and an 8-8 team to the proceedings. Though if you were to try to extrapolate this tournament idea back to Carroll's first tenure in conference, you'd have some weird years with 6-10 or 4-12 teams making it, and I only had to go back to 1990 for the latter scenario. I wouldn't think we'd have those scenarios happening very often, but it would be kind of funny that a team that only won 25 percent of its games in conference would have a shot at the NCAA Tournament.

I generally like conference tournaments yet this has the potential to be an additional pool C buster for a bubble CCIW team.

Given how much of a cluster-bleep the country as a whole seems to be with so many good teams and not a lot of great teams, it could very well be. I wonder if North Central hadn't pulled off its Cinderella run last year would the league still have gotten two bids, or could it have picked up a third, or would there just have been one.

[voxelmhurst]

At any rate, we now have an interesting topic of discussion opened up: Six teams going to the CCIW tournament instead of four, starting next season. Thoughts?

Thoughts for now:

1) The CCIW tournament just got more important. If and when a #5/#6 seed gets hot and wins the tournament and automatic national tournament bid, this scenario won't be kind to the #2 or #3 (or even #1) seeds who play a good but not great regular season and then come up short in the CCIW tournament.

2) Depending on how a given regular season unfolds, there could be up to 3 separate finishing races at the end of the season. The race for #1, the race for a first-round CCIW bye, and the race to get in at #6. In effect, the chances are now much greater that more CCIW regular season games will mean something.

[lmitzel]

The other thing I decided to look at too out of curiosity was compare the new format to what other conferences run. When the CCIW was an eight team league only inviting the top four made sense. Now with nine, expansion parallels many other conferences.

I looked at the 43 conferences with auto bids, and not factoring in realignments or changes to other conference tournaments other than the CCIW from last year's tournaments, roughly 62.56 percent of teams in D3 make their conference tournament. Under the new format, the CCIW would send 6 of 9, or 66.7 percent. This is a little above the average as well as the median of 60 percent, but I don't think significantly above that number (someone who understands statistics better than I do can probably help confirm this).

So to USee's earlier point, it may be something of a bubble buster, but so are many other conference tournaments. 10 of them invite at least 80 percent of their teams, with two of these tournaments inviting all conference teams but one, and three bringing everybody. On the other hand, these tournaments would add additional games against regionally ranked opponents (your #3-6 seeds could potentially add another RRO game to their resumes), as well as boost SOS.