MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

* And, if there is any question of his not being included in the inaugural class, for any reason, keep in mind that he was inducted into the Small College Basketball Hall Of Fame as part of it's second class. 

Wouldn't the better argument using the Small College Basketball Hall of Fame sorta be that Jack Sikma is the only CCIW player in it?

Class 1 (2016): https://www.smallcollegebasketball.com/copy-of-phil-jackson-1
Class 2 (2017): https://www.smallcollegebasketball.com/copy-of-2016-scb-hall-of-famers-1

I don't see your guy Landon Gamble there in that inaugural list with Dr. James Naismith and Bevo Francis.

* My thinking was Sikma would be at the top of the list of my 2nd class.

I have been part of many difficult debates here on CCIW Chat over the last 20 years.

Debating whether Jack Sikma should be part of a 1st Team CCIW player Hall of Fame vs a 2nd Team is not one of those difficult debates.

[Titan Q]

Illinois Wesleyan (18-5, 11-3) at Carthage (12-11, 7-7), 7:00pm...

#23-Illinois Wesleyan (18-5, 11-3)
G - Brady Rose, 6-3/185 Jr.  22.0 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 3.3 apg
G - Colin Bonnett, 6-4/190 Jr.  12.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.6 apg
G - Jason Gregoire, 6-4/195 Jr.  8.0 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 1.9 apg
F - Jaylen Beasley, 6-6/185 Sr.  5.8 ppg, 6.8 rpg
C - Alex O'Neill, 6-9/245 So.  8.5 ppg, 5.0 rpg

Carthage (12-11, 7-7)
G - Jordan Thomas, 5-11/180 Jr.  18.8 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.1 apg
G - Derek Mason, 5-10/175 Sr.  8.7 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 1.9 apg
F - Kienan Baltimore, 6-5/223 So.  17.9 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.2 apg
F - Brad Kruse, 6-4/202 Sr.  16.1 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 2.9 apg
C - Sean Johnson, 6-10/205 Fr.  3.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg


Pantagraph: http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/iwu-hunts-for-share-of-cciw-crown-at-carthage/article_bd82ff3c-a54b-5cc5-a9b7-8257c0863446.html

WJBC Radio: https://portal.stretchinternet.com/wjbc/

Video/Stats: http://athletics.carthage.edu/?path=mbball

[AndOne]

* And, if there is any question of his not being included in the inaugural class, for any reason, keep in mind that he was inducted into the Small College Basketball Hall Of Fame as part of it's second class. 

Wouldn't the better argument using the Small College Basketball Hall of Fame sorta be that Jack Sikma is the only CCIW player in it?

Class 1 (2016): https://www.smallcollegebasketball.com/copy-of-phil-jackson-1
Class 2 (2017): https://www.smallcollegebasketball.com/copy-of-2016-scb-hall-of-famers-1

I don't see your guy Landon Gamble there in that inaugural list with Dr. James Naismith and Bevo Francis.

* My thinking was Sikma would be at the top of the list of my 2nd class.

I have been part of many difficult debates here on CCIW Chat over the last 20 years.

Debating whether Jack Sikma should be part of a 1st Team CCIW player Hall of Fame vs a 2nd Team is not one of those difficult debates.

Look, my intention was not to start WWIII. The question was if there was a CCIW Men's Basketball HOF, should it be coaches, a mixture of coaches and players, or just coaches. Greg Sager put forth the idea of an excellent list of coaches. Fine. I just thought IF it was players instead, a good choice might be players who distinguished themselves by being named All Conference all four years. After all, it IS a rather exclusive and distinguished list. You can't argue that those seven players would deserve inclusion. However, that particular "best" list didn't include any IWU players so some sort of a stink had to be raised. 
Of course, there is no question that an All Pro should be included! So, instead of having him wait one whole year before inclusion, if you want Jack Sikma included in the inaugural class, he's got my vote. He's in!

It was just an idea. The common denominator I chose was 1st team All Conference all 4 years. Lots of different lists/variables could be used. This was just the one I happened to choose as I thought the distinction was a worthy one as far as a HOF.

By the way, "my guy," Landon Gamble was a pretty fair player. You know, All Conference 4 years, All Region, All American. Someone that was a handful even for the boys in green. 
You might even say he was a significant player. 

[Titan Q]

However, that particular "best" list didn't include any IWU players so some sort of a stink had to be raised. 

Not looking for WWII, dude, but you made an list of proposed 1st ballot CCIW Hall of Famers and left off a guy who:

* Averaged 21.2 ppg, 13.1 rpg over the course of 4 CCIW seasons
* Led his team to 3 CCIW titles (1975, 1976, 1977)
* Was a 3-team M.O.P.
* Earned All-American honors 3 times
* Was the #8 pick in the NBA draft
* Was a 7-time NBA all-star
* Was inducted into the Small College Basketball Hall of Fame
* Had the best perm in the history of small college basketball

I'm not sure this falls into the "green tinted glasses" category here.

By the way, there are several other former CCIW players that could/should be higher than many of the 4-time 1st Teamers you listed. Michael Harper (NPU), like Sikma, is at the top of that list of guys you're missing.

[augie77]

Sikma has to top any CCIW HOF list.  That said, I'm a bit surprised Sikma didn't make First Team CCIW his freshman year.   On the other hand, he was competing against Millikin's Leon Gobczynski (35 ppg) and Augustana's Bruce Hamming.  Both are among the all time great post players in CCIW history, and both were upper classmen during Sikma's freshman year.  It would have been tough to relegate either Hamming or "The Gob" to second team.

Another possible consideration is that Sikma missed his freshman year game AT Augustana due to illness (an IWU loss).  I believe Sikma was a very strong CCIW second team selection freshman year despite these other considerations.  Any other year he would have been first team.

[Titan Q]

Sikma has to top any CCIW HOF list.  That said, I'm a bit surprised Sikma didn't make First Team CCIW his freshman year.   On the other hand, he was competing against Millikin's Leon Gobczynski (35 ppg) and Augustana's Bruce Hamming.  Both are among the all time great post players in CCIW history, and both were upper classmen during Sikma's freshman year.  It would have been tough to relegate either Hamming or "The Gob" to second team.

Sikma's freshman year he averaged 15.4 ppg, 10.6 rpg.  1st Team-type numbers.  Probably just a function, like you said, of lots of great players in the league.

[AndOne]

That was back in the days of 3 teams of 5 players for AC.
Under the current system of 2 teams of 8, no doubt he'd be 1st team.
And, even under the old system, there were probably several years where he would have been one of the top 5. Freshman year likely just a matter of timing, entering in a loaded year.

[Titan Q]

Looking at the 2017-18 All-CCIW team, I think there are 13 players in the 1st Team discussion for 8 spots.  In the new all-conference configuration there are two teams of 8 players.

(Stats are from conference games only.)

(G) Nolan Ebel, 6-1 Jr (Augustana)  17.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.1 apg
(G) Aston Francis, 6-1 Jr (Wheaton)  30.9 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 3.9 apg
(G) Joel Heesch, 6-2 Sr (Carroll)  13.2 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 4.9 apg
(F) Elijah Henry, 6-7 Jr (Millikin)  17.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.2 apg
(F) Jeremy Ireland, 6-7 Jr (Elmhurst)  14.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 2.1 apg
(F) Brad Kruse, 6-4 Sr (Carthage)  15.2 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.6 apg
(G) Colin Lake, 5-7 Sr (North Park)  18.1 ppg, 3.1 ppg, 2.1 apg
(G) Chrishawn Orange, 6-2 Jr (Augustana)  15.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.6 apg
(F) Connor Raridon, 6-6 So (North Central)  12.1 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.0 apg
(G) Brady Rose, 6-3 Jr (Illinois Wesleyan)  23.1 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.4 apg
(G) Ricky Samuelson, 6-3 Sr (Wheaton)   14.9 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 0.9 apg
(F) Alex Sorenson, 6-8 Sr (North Central)  17.7 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.8 apg
(G) Jordan Thomas, 5-11 Jr (Carthage)  17.6 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 1.7 apg


I did not include the following 2 players above due to a number of missed conference games:

(F) Kienan Baltimore, 6-5 So (Carthage)  17.9 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.2 apg - will play in 12 of 16 games
(G) Erwin Henry, 6-2 Sr (North Central)  15.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 2.4 apg - will play in 10 of 16 games


So the question is, who are your 8?

[kiko]

I think a conference HOF is a great idea.  And it leads me to a two-part question.  Whenever something like this is started, there is some prestige to being selected as part of the inaugural class.  (Not that I know this from personal experience, of course...)

So: across all sports, who are your five inaugural class members?  And, if you limit it to men's basketball, who would your five be?

Good questions.

This would be my inaugural five:

Dennis Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan men's basketball head coach, athletic director)
Al Carius (North Central men's cross-country and track & field head coach)
Dan McCarrell (North Park men's basketball head coach, athletic director)
Lee Pfund (Wheaton men's basketball and baseball head coach)
Bob Reade (Augustana football head coach)

In a situation in which you have such a restricted number of inaugural inductees, I think that you have to start with coaches rather than athletes.

This is not a politically correct list, obviously, since it consists of five white males who each coached a men's sport. But the fact of the matter is that any honest appraisal of CCIW coaching is going to focus upon white males, as there haven't exactly been many coaches of color in the CCIW ranks in any sport. Even CCIW men's basketball, which has had a large percentage of African-American players for many decades now, has only had two black head coaches, and the two of them only stuck around in this league for four years, combined.

The gender issue is more problematic, but, since the league was men-only for its first forty years, it's still male coaches that have dominated CCIW history. That's continued to a lesser degree into the era of women's sports in the CCIW (this league began sponsoring women's sports in 1986-87), as a lot of successful CCIW women's teams have been coached by men. In fact, over the course of the 23 years that the league has sponsored the sport, the CCIW women's soccer title has never been won by a team whose head coach was a woman, which league outsiders might think is kind of shocking. And about half of the softball and women's track & field titles have been won by teams whose head coach was a man, too.

My second class to get inaugurated would include Lori Kerans, who is stepping down from coaching the Millikin women's basketball program as of next week to become a Millikin administrator. Now that she'll no longer be an active coach, she's a no-brainer selection as the first female inductee; her Big Blue team won the D3 national title in 2005, culminating a career that also featured 11 CCIW titles and 14 D3 tourney appearances.

My second class would be:

Joe Bean (Wheaton men's soccer head coach)
Jack Horenberger (Illinois Wesleyan men's basketball and baseball head coach, athletic director)
Art Keller (Carthage football, men's basketball, and baseball head coach, athletic director)
Lori Kerans (Millikin women's basketball head coach, athletic director)
John Molitor (North Central men's swimming/diving athlete and head coach)

Men's basketball only? This would be my inaugural five:

Jim Borcherding (Augustana head coach)
Dennis Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan head coach)
Dan McCarrell (North Park head coach)
Lee Pfund (Wheaton head coach)
Bill Warden (North Central player and head coach)

Bosko Djurickovic goes in on the first ballot for which he is eligible for induction after he retires, regardless of whether we're talking CCIW HOF as a whole or just a CCIW MBBHOF. If Grey Giovanine isn't a first-ballot inductee as well, he'll be a second-ballot inductee.

So I will give you my five overall, and it will be a more politically correct answer.

From my POV, the inaugural class would need to be broadly representative of:
- as many schools as possible
- as many sports as possible
- men and women's sports
- coaches as well as players.

It's clear that the first class would be bigger than five, but since that is the constraint I suggested,  I will stick with it.  That means one men's basketball person, one football person, etc.

The first five coaches I would consider are the five on Gregory's list (Bridges, Carius, McCarrell, Pfund, and Reade).  You can make a case for them going in any order, so to some extent, the pecking order here is dependent on who gets selected to check other boxes.  In other words, if I decided Kent Raymond should go in the first class, I wouldn't take Pfund as well.  Not a slam at all on him as he's a no-brainer inductee, but it would be more appropriate IMO if an inaugural class of five individuals represented five schools.  So we get one of the two.  The same holds true for Sikma/Bridges, Carius/Warden, etc.

My inaugural five would be:

- Al Carius, who gets the nod among the coaches for both longevity of success and sheer number of national championships won
- Lori Kerans, for sustained success in women's basketball
- Bob Reade or someone else associated with Augustana's glory days football era.  I would not choose Kenny Anderson, as if the male athletes selected were he and Sikma, then the optics would be that players selected were those who attained professional success, and that's not the right criteria.
- Jack Sikma, who is IMO clearly the first male athlete in any sport who should be selected
- I don't know who the fifth would be, but it should be whomever is considered the greatest female athlete in conference history.

What I don't like about this list is not having someone from Wheaton in the inaugural class of five, but I don't know how to solve for that without weighting things too heavily toward men's sports.  I thought about a Wheaton football player, but it seems like the lead horse from that sport needs to come from Augustana.  If at all possible I'd really look for the fifth individual to come from woman's soccer, swimming, softball, etc., if a case could be made.  I can't make a good suggestion here as the only thing I really know about CCIW woman's sports is what Ypsi and 70 post on this board.

Michael Harper would be my second men's basketball player selected, both because of what he did and because North Park's golden age needs to be represented early among basketball inductees.  Basing the selections solely on who was a four-year first-team all conference choice gets you to a group who are all worthy of eventual selection, but none of those guys belong at the tippy-top of the list above Sikma or Harper.

If I am doing a mens basketball only list, it would include both players and coaches, and consist of:
- Michael Harper, North Park
- Lee Pfund, Wheaton
- Jesse Price, Millikin
- Jack Sikma, Illinois Wesleyan
- Bill Warden, North Central

Second class would be:
- Dennis Bridges, Illinois Wesleyan
- Steve Djurickovic, Carthage
- John Laing, Augustana
- Dan McCarrell, North Park
- Bud Schaeffer, Wheaton

Laing was a two-time MOP, two-time NAIA All-American, and Augie's career scoring leader.  He was MOP and an AA during Augie's 16-0 1972-73 season that produced the last undefeated conference champion.

[Titan Q]

If I am doing a mens basketball only list, it would include both players and coaches, and consist of:
- Michael Harper, North Park
- Lee Pfund, Wheaton
- Jesse Price, Millikin
- Jack Sikma, Illinois Wesleyan
- Bill Warden, North Central

Second class would be:
Steve Djurickovic, Carthage
John Laing, Augustana
Bud Schaeffer, Wheaton
Dennis Bridges, Illinois Wesleyan
Dan McCarrell, North Park

This is well thought out.  Nicely done.

I do think even with the balancing that both Sikma and Bridges deserve to be first class.  But I very much understand how you are approaching this.

[kiko]

If I am doing a mens basketball only list, it would include both players and coaches, and consist of:
- Michael Harper, North Park
- Lee Pfund, Wheaton
- Jesse Price, Millikin
- Jack Sikma, Illinois Wesleyan
- Bill Warden, North Central

Second class would be:
Steve Djurickovic, Carthage
John Laing, Augustana
Bud Schaeffer, Wheaton
Dennis Bridges, Illinois Wesleyan
Dan McCarrell, North Park

This is well thought out.  Nicely done.

I do think even with the balancing that both Sikma and Bridges deserve to be first class.  But I very much understand how you are approaching this.

I wouldn't argue if they both made the cut.  They are both at the top of the no-brainer list.

[iwumichigander]

Sikma has to top any CCIW HOF list.  That said, I'm a bit surprised Sikma didn't make First Team CCIW his freshman year.   On the other hand, he was competing against Millikin's Leon Gobczynski (35 ppg) and Augustana's Bruce Hamming.  Both are among the all time great post players in CCIW history, and both were upper classmen during Sikma's freshman year.  It would have been tough to relegate either Hamming or "The Gob" to second team.

Sikma's freshman year he averaged 15.4 ppg, 10.6 rpg.  1st Team-type numbers.  Probably just a function, like you said, of lots of great players in the league.

Sikma was 2nd team CCIW in his freshman year.  In 1974, the upper class men for All CCIW Basketball was "loaded".

[Titan Q]

If I was going to pick 5 starters and 3 reserves to go play a real game, I'd go...

(G) Brady Rose, 6-3 Jr (Illinois Wesleyan)  23.1 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.4 apg
(G) Aston Francis, 6-1 Jr (Wheaton)  30.9 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 3.9 apg
(F) Connor Raridon, 6-6 So (North Central)  12.1 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.0 apg
(F) Elijah Henry, 6-7 Jr (Millikin)  17.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 1.2 apg
(F) Alex Sorenson, 6-8 Sr (North Central)  17.7 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 2.8 apg

(F) Brad Kruse, 6-4 Sr (Carthage)  15.2 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 2.6 apg
(G) Nolan Ebel, 6-1 Jr (Augustana)  17.1 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 4.1 apg
(F) Jeremy Ireland, 6-7 Jr (Elmhurst)  14.4 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 2.1 apg

[joehakes]

Interesting discussion on the HOF. No short list of inaugural classes or whose turn it is next will satisfy everyone. (The idea of satisfying everyone on this board is pretty amusing.)  Having all who deserve to go in initially would be a very large class and would dilute the impact. Again, this all theoretical at this point but for the first two years, the conference could hold 2-3 events, each inducting who would all be considered the first class. This would be a somewhat complicated system but if the three events, say, were at different venues, fall, winter and spring, it might work. The physical housing of a "Hall" is probably not important and could be done with a virtual presence.

I think that this would be a good idea, but most likely an undoable task.  Perhaps if the CCIW Chatsters wanted to pony up some money to support the effort, the commissioner might consider it. After saying that, having money influence politics,which applies here, is not a good idea, so scratch that.

OT: I have been in the hospital (and rehab), since 12/23 with a pretty serious condition.  The nurses, doctors, and therapists have worked miracles to get me back to an acceptable level of health. I am going home on Monday after 58 days gone. Looking forward to opening Christmas presents. My wife is a rock star.

The reason I bring this up is to say that part of my recovery was reading this board. Laughter is good for the soul.

BTW:  Mel Peterson (WC, late '50's) should be a lock.

[Titan Q]

Interesting discussion on the HOF. No short list of inaugural classes or whose turn it is next will satisfy everyone. (The idea of satisfying everyone on this board is pretty amusing.)  Having all who deserve to go in initially would be a very large class and would dilute the impact. Again, this all theoretical at this point but for the first two years, the conference could hold 2-3 events, each inducting who would all be considered the first class. This would be a somewhat complicated system but if the three events, say, were at different venues, fall, winter and spring, it might work. The physical housing of a "Hall" is probably not important and could be done with a virtual presence.

I think that this would be a good idea, but most likely an undoable task.  Perhaps if the CCIW Chatsters wanted to pony up some money to support the effort, the commissioner might consider it. After saying that, having money influence politics,which applies here, is not a good idea, so scratch that.

OT: I have been in the hospital (and rehab), since 12/23 with a pretty serious condition.  The nurses, doctors, and therapists have worked miracles to get me back to an acceptable level of health. I am going home on Monday after 58 days gone. Looking forward to opening Christmas presents. My wife is a rock star.

The reason I bring this up is to say that part of my recovery was reading this board. Laughter is good for the soul.

BTW:  Mel Peterson (WC, late '50's) should be a lock.

Great to hear you are heading home, Joe.  Stay strong!